Has anyone actually sat down with this class and played it through a campaign? This looks to cause some serious damage. Just lookin for feedback here. Any problems/issue that you had would be great.
Printable View
Has anyone actually sat down with this class and played it through a campaign? This looks to cause some serious damage. Just lookin for feedback here. Any problems/issue that you had would be great.
We just completed a pure Pathfinder (no 3.5 material allowed) campaign a couple of weeks ago. We ran from level 3 to level 8. And our summoner's eidolon was a real beast in melee. Outshining everyone except our fighter (me). And in order to keep ahead of it I had to optimize pretty aggressively.
But there were a couple of things that kept it from being exceptionally powerful. First, it had little staying power. Its low hit points and relatively low AC, meant it died more days than not. So for most adventuring days the summoner was a eidolon wrangler part of the day, and a classic summoner the other part. Second, as we gained in level, especially as we gained equipment, I was advancing faster than it was. It lost comparative attack and damage. At third level it was more or less my equal. By 8th level I was dealing ~40 hp a hit. And with iterative attacks, reach (from the weapon and the feat Lunge), & combat reflexes, most rounds I was dealing out over 100 hp of damage. By comparison it was dealing ~20 damage a hit, and was landing around maybe three attacks a round.
The summoner itself is a partial caster that is largely dedicated to summons and buffing the summons/eidolon. I would place its spell list as being roughly comparable to the Bard's list. The class abilities are good, but the two primary ones are mutually incompatible. And the skill list pretty mediocre. And with only 2+Int the summoner won't have too many skills.
In all the class played like a classic Tier-3. It could do one thing really well with a bunch of other minor abilities. He was an effective character, but he hardly outshined anyone else. And there were quite a few moments where he sat in the back of the party and was useless for what we were doing.
I've heard a few horror stories about super-optimized eidolons getting 9+ attacks a turn, but those may be exaggerations. I myself don't have any experience with summoners, although they do look pretty sweet.:smallbiggrin:
How fair was the optimization, though for the eldion? They get alot of attacks, decent die damage when size upgraded, and fair resistance
Running self buff spells from scrolls.or wands and transferring them over to the eldion would be strong in theory, but I haven't had any play through with it. You can also gear your eldion, assuming your okay taking the hit on not wearing the gear yourself.
Fair questions. The Eidolon was fairly optimized. But at level 8 he was still limited by rule to 4 attacks (bite, claw, claw, tail slap in this case). At level 9 he would have gotten Multiattack, which I expect would be a good boost. With only 11 evolution points, going to large was not yet cost effective, and it only becomes available at level 8 anyway. And given our average cramped battle space, I doubt he ever would have gone to huge. Which would cost 10 evolution points anyway which would be more than half your points until at least level 16 and is only available after level 13 in any case.
We were also in a magic light game. I was still using masterwork weapons for the most part at 8th level. I did have one magic weapon, but it didn't match my Weapon Focus, or my Weapon Training. So it was a backup to be used against incorporeals and the like. The Summoner didn't have magic items to spare for the Eidolon. But like I said, I was operating under the same restrictions as well.
I've heard the horror stories about Eidolons as well. But my guess is that they were (intentionally or not) cheating. You can't get 9 attacks even at 20th level, the evolution points are pretty restrictive, and the three base chassis options are pretty meh. Our player spent hours working through the rules and still unintentionally cheated a couple of times. If I GMed one I would watch it like a hawk. Almost everything is level limited, and generally that limit is buried in the text.
Ours was, like I said, a real beast, very effective. Better than an average druid's animal companion. But if it is better than the party's melee PCs, something is wrong. In that case either the Eilodon is illegally built, or the melee PC is under optimized.
They could, in the playtest, and they could do so very easily, but a special clause was added in against such tomfoolery since the final draft of the class was released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious
I have seen them in play, quite a bit, and I will say that a Barbarian will still out damage them, but they aren't without their own capabilities, so I'll end here for fear of just repeating everything qcb just stated.
Alright; so they're decent offensively, what about defensively? Could it replace a tank for the party?
Additionally, how good is summoner by himself? How about support for his eldion? I noticed theres not alot of feats that affect the eldion, which is strange considering; Extra Evolution points and Extra feats for the eldion should have easily made it to the feat.
What about multi-classing, has anyone tried doing this with any success? Maybe some kind of cavalier who rides his summon into fights, or a more spell type for summoner.
Any word on Pathfinder for more eldion/summoner support?
My party has a tanking eidolon. Boosted up it's natural armor and dex, and then proceeded to give it reach for fun with AoO. It does not deal the most damage, but it does protect his summoner and the other squishies.
We've only hit level 3, but right now the summoner is kinda useless. He buffs the eidolon, and then tries to decide if he should fire into melee with his crossbow. They don't have a great spell selection, especially at lower levels. He's having fun though.
One thing that I have read is about the secondary summoning. In the play test of the summoner, he had the ability to summon his eidolon and the class ability to summon monster X at the same time. When they published the APG, they changed it so they could not be used at the same time. As the DM, I've toyed with the idea of allowing the character to use the playtest rules. I haven't done it yet, so I'm not sure if it is a good idea or not.
Edit: In regards to feats, we thought the same thing, that there was a lack of them. We looked it over and decided to make one that the eidolon receives an evolution, the point value of which is equal to or less than the summoner's level divided by 5 (rounding up for levels 1-5 of course).
Currently playing a Pathfinder only game with a Summoner as one of the characters. Now the stats are super high 1D8 + 10 with an average of 14 in every stat so take it with a grain of salt when I say that the Summoner is one of the most effective characters we have.
1st off we are at lvl 8 and started at lvl 6 so let me start it at lvl 6 stats, the summon is bipedal with maxed Natural armor so it has about base AC of 21 at lvl 6 that is base of 10 + 2 for base form, +1 dex, + 4 for Improved armor evolution, and + 4 for lvl advancement. This was further boosted by the Summoner casting the Shield spell using shared spell for another 4 points.
So at lvl 6 with the summoner using his action to cast shield the Eidolon has a combat AC of 25, that is not too bad really for this point in the game.
Now the attacks were creative first off one of the feats chosen by the summoner player for the Eidolon was Power attack why because every primary attack counts as a main hand attack so it gets full power attack bonuses on every attack.
Then extra arms were purchased for a total of 4 arms and the ability to use All martial weapons was chosen for a total spent of 5 evolution points. Next he gave the eidolon +4 Strength. that spent his evolution points.
The eidolon was using a MW Longsword and a +1 longsword in 2 of the arms and claws on the other two. That gave the max of 4 attacks a round since the Eidolon counts the swords as Primary attacks for the purpose of attacking.
Any time he wanted he could with the spell Lesser evolution surge he could upgrade the claws to Slam attacks and give them a 1D10 damage die.
Or he can cast Bull Strength for +2 hit and damage.
So basically the Eidolon had 4 Attacks, 2 at +11 to hit with the swords the other 2 at +10 to hit. Now power attack would be used dropping the attack numbers to 2 at +9 and 2 at +8 to hit. Often Bull strength was used to make up for that lowered to hit number.
But that is 2 attacks doing 1D8 + 11 due to power attack + Bull Str. Then the other two were 1d4 or 1d10 + 11 (if evoluton surge occured)
The damage output of the Eidolon was impressive and only increased as better weapons were purchased for it by the Summoner.
The other big thing is that this Eidolon could be customized with the Lesser evolution surge to counter threats as needed. Flight at will, Energy resistance or immunity (After lvl 7) at will, tremor sense as needed, instant +8 to any skill at will.
This gives a lot of utility to the Eidolon since you can accomplish much on the fly.
Most problems with the eidolon arise from players either intentionally breaking the rules or accidentally doing so by spending more evolution points than they have or getting things like the mechanics for how natural attacks work with iterative attacks and martial weapons.
i will use the example character of the Eidolon above me. he talks about the two swords and two claws then mentions full damage from the claws. the claws would be at -5 (so with Pa -7?) when used in conjunction with the Two sword attacks. the second sword attaack would have also been an offhand weapon.
Eidolons are a reeally neat idea, however they are complicated and often times people have just scanned over the entries in the rules. They also seem to work best (ie no rules gotten wrong) when the Eidolon does not use Manufactured weapons.
I made a lvl 5 summoner who used his summon as a mount with a couple of charge feats and a lance. The damage output was pretty good for a small character (was playing a halfling) but the effectiveness of a mount that could fly/swim/climb/etc and had a massive base land speed (70ft), was pretty sweet.
I mean a summon doesn't have to be combat oriented when it can be your character's best steed.
I actually wondered if there was a homebrew for playing as a eidolon without a master... but couldn't find one. So I made one up :smallbiggrin:;
Eidolon
But I personally enjoy the summoner class.
in our current game I have a lvl 8 summoner on a pegicorn. it has just a horn attack and a bite and trample, but it's fast large sized and can fly.
I've had one playing in my game (currently level 2), working as a mounted combatant pair. The Eidolon has some trouble hitting with it's 3 attacks, and the summoner itself has been a pain with a reach weapon and making crazy use of Grease. The Eidolon allows for some unique survival strategies, being allowed to die and come back the next day.
Where does it say that the claws are secondary weapons if you are using martial weapons? The list as primary weapons and you can have more than 1 primary attack type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_Rat
Where does it say that a second sword is in the offhand on Eidolons? Again no mention of attack reduction and in fact under the Eidolon section it says the following...
"A number of evolutions grant the eidolon additional natural attacks. Natural attacks listed as primary are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus and add the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls. Natural attacks listed as secondary are made using the eidolon’s base attack bonus – 5 and add 1/2 the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls (if positive)."
Nothing is mentioned about using weapons at all so it it not clear on how to run it so I will agree with you there.
Considering you are using two evolution points to get the proficiency with them and can not enhance them with improved natural attack I think it evens out.
Please point out if I have missed a rule somewhere and I will bring it up to the group.
This is from the SRD. I assume it looks similar in the Bestiary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hida Reju
Then a bit laterQuote:
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Or you can use this bit from the Core RulebookQuote:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
Just because it doesn't say anything under the Eidolon section of the APG, doesn't mean that Eidolon's are exempt from the standard rules.Quote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
the poster above me is correct except for one last bit. though I don't know why hasn't been changed. the core book and the Beastiary slightly in that twf feats do not help.
James Jacob has said I believe the Beastiary rules take precedence. one good rule of thumb I've found is if your eidolon appears to be out damaging a fighter designed do damage then the eidolon may be built wrong. proved they have the same level of optimization eidolon will do good damage but should be behind the other top end damage dealers.
I don't have any experience with any APG class, since no one in my group has shown interest in them so far, but Now I might try experimenting a little to see if this is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious
I think those 9 attack ones are Beta only as now Ediolons have a listed max attack in the book.
One of the nerfs besides can't wear armor even untrained unless take evolution for it.
Jason's explaination is the form is constantly shifting otherwise.
The eidolon can get 70ish attacks pretty easy. The limit is only for natural weapons.
While no Eidolon can grow the 70ish arms it would need to undertake such (awesome) Multiweapon fighting, yes, agreed that arms --> holding weapons is a perfectly legal way to build an Eidolon that has "more attacks than allowed".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans
The problem then comes from trying to improve individual weapon damage, the classic TWF's problem taken to its logical extreme. Then again, Eidolons suffer this with their natural weapons in the first place, sooooo...
This is an example of what a really nasty higher-level Eidolon can look like. It's a hybrid of the Pouncer and Slugger packages, designed as an alpha-strike build capable of killing a good fraction of level-appropriate enemies in one round.
The stats below assume the following all-day buffs are active: Mage Armour, Greater Magic Fang, Overland Flight (all last 10 hours at CL 10). The Eidolon carries two magic items: a +1 greatsword and a belt of strength +2. (In practice it would have far more items and probably some extra buffs like Heroism.)
Form: Quadruped
HP: 76 (8d10+32)
AC: 28 (+3 Dex +12 NA +4 armour -1 size)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft, fly 40 ft.
Ability Scores: Str 28 (30) Dex 16 Con 17 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Saves: Fort +9 Ref +9 Will +2/+6
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword (1st), Toughness (3rd), Improved Natural Attack: Claw (5th), Lunge (7th), Multiattack (Bonus)
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs (Legs), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (extra, 14-point pool): Large (4), Pounce (1), Limbs (Arms, 2), Limbs (Arms, 2), Claws (Legs, 1), Claws (Arms, 1), Improved Damage (Claws, 1), Rend (2)
Special Abilities: Darkvision, Link, Share Spells, Devotion, Multiattack
Attack Routine: +1 greatsword +18/+13 (3d6+16, 19-20 crit) and bite +16 (1d8+6) and 4 claws +16 (2d6+6) and rend 2d6+21 if two or more claws hit.
On turn 1, the summoner casts haste and moves and the Eidolon makes a flying charge of up to 140 feet, pounces, and full attacks, making 3 greatsword attacks, 4 claw attacks, a bite, and a rend at an average to-hit bonus of +19.
Just for fun, we'll compare this to a Fire Giant, the iconic CR 10 melee monster. It has an AC of 24. Assuming average rolls and no criticals, the Eidolon can expect to do about 143 damage. A Fire Giant has 142 HP. You can push the average damage up much higher by getting the Eidolon better items or more buffs.
Now, granted, things won't always turn out this neatly, but the fact that the Eidolon has a better-than-average chance of 1-round-killing a monster that's supposed to be a challenge for an entire party is fairly impressive.
The killer centaur by Saph
Is your math correct if you wield manufactured weapons you automatically make your claw attacks secondary attacks? That should reduce your attack bonus a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dax the monk
That was the beta explanation - in the final, it's described as interfering with the summoner's connection to the eidolon, which makes more sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starbuck_II
The eidolon's armor bonus can be split between an armor and a natural armor bonus, however, so your eidolon can still "wear armor" - the armor just has to be a part of the eidolon. I thought that was a clever solution.
the eidolon posted a bit above me with a glance over appears to be correct. the reason it doesn't get -5 to it's offhand attacks is it has multi attack. eidlons get it at lvl 9 if they have multiple natural weapon attacks.
a couple of things to realize. ( and thus isn't to criticize the build but put things I'n perspective )
a fire giant is not intended to be a challenge for a lvl 10 party. it's intended to use 20% resources.
the eidolons damage is less than a Pc dpr character, other than the pounce bit. any dr other than dr magic ill drop his damage like a rock. he can be dismissed. if anything hsppens to the summoner he gies poof.
compared to fighters and barbarians eidolon are squishy my experience playing one and another I'n the party they go down ALOT.
First things first Summoner's Handbook
Whoa there buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by qcbtnsrm
Have you really looked at the Summoner spells?
I'm about to quote myself (post from the Handbook), but it really says what I need to say
Its spell progression is comparable to the Bard. But its spell power is equivalent to the Wizard. The Summoner's spell (power) keeps up with the Wizard's, usually a level-up behind, but often enough a level-up EARLIER!Quote:
even though the Summoner "only" has access to 6 Levels of spells, most of the spells on the Summoner list are 'discounted' versus the Wizard list.
For example:
Most 3rd Level Sum-Spells are 3rd or 4th on the Wiz list.
Most 4th Level Sum-Spells are 5th or 6th on the Wiz list.
Most 5th Level Sum-Spells are 6th or 7th on the Wiz list.
and Most 6th Level Sum-Spells are 8th or 9th on the Wiz list.
The main thing the Summoner lacks is spell slots.
Long story short a Summoner has the power of a Wizard, but not as many spell slots.
The Summoner in my game does quite well, especially getting access to haste at a lower level than would be expected. Casting mage armor on the eidolon pushes its AC to a respectable level.
I believe there are some misconceptions about the evolution point table, with some people assuming that the evolution pool goes up by the listed amount at the level, others saying that the number reflects the total pool and not the increase. I'm pretty certain the it's the second case, though more than one person might assume it's the first.
The player in my campaign did and I never caught it, so his eidolon was a complete beast in combat and tore through just about every combat encounter until I caught the error. He still does well, though.
Have you met my eidolon, BALL OF ARMS MAN!?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by balistafreak
This. Among the many, many confusing things about the Eidolon, that does not help. I spent some time trying to mock up a Summoner and most of it involved going back and having to redo all my evolutions based on misreading and miscalculating my available EP.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatBoy
Just for instance ... quadraped level 8 Eidolon :
Evolutions (11 points avalable) :
Large (4)
Flight (2)
Pounce (1)
Limbs (2)
Claws (1)
Improved Natural Armor (1)
Feats :
Iron Will
Power Attack
Weapon Focus Claws
Items :
Belt of Giant Strength +4
Darkwood heavy wooden shield (no armor check penalty)
Buffs :
GMF
Evolution surge for rend at start of combat.
Strength = 14+3(class bonus)+1(level)+4(enhancement)+8(size) = 30
AB = 6+10(strength)+1(enhancement)-1(size) = 16 for bite, 17 for claws.
On a power attack pounce (charge bonus and PA penalty eliminate each other) against AC21 the damage is :
0.8*(4.5+10+4+1)*1.05 + 2*0.85*(3.5+10+4+1)*1.05 + 0.85*0.85*(3.5+15+4+1) =~ 66.4 points of damage
It can do this against a single target (doesn't need AoOs). It can do this on a charge. It can fly and hover most of the time (2 points short of a sure thing). This isn't a damage optimized build either. I took NA boost instead of claw boost or another natural attack, took Iron Will instead of INA for the claws, I took limbs even though I could not put claws on them yet (next level his damage shoots up quite a bit because of this). I didn't throw an extended Heroism on top even though that's certainly possible and can last through a short adventurer's workday.
Really, the summoner gets a pet fighter as a class ability ... and as was said before, the summoner has a very decent spell list with discounted spells.
Now that said, the Eidolon is filled to the absolute brim with trap options ... so most players probably will screw it up.
Exactly. For an extremely non-optimized eidolon, made only to demonstrate the point... a lvl20 half-elf summoner, using the alternative favored class bonus to gain extra evolution points, will have 31 EP to play with. Take a biped eidolon, give it a bite and another fifteen pairs of arms. Go ahead and use greater evolution surge to give it another pair of arms and a breath weapon. Give it a short sword for each hand. On a full attack, that's 68 short sword attacks, one bite, and one breath weapon 70 total attacks of one form or another. If you're allowed to use improved and greater multiweapon fighting (they aren't *technically* in the Pathfinder SRD), make that 138 total attacks. Toss in haste and that becomes either 172 or 173 (I'm not 100% sure in PF, to be honest)Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatBoy
70-ish attacks isn't difficult to acheive, especially not at level twenty. It's just not the best option, amusing though it may be.