Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

By 5 points. (which is what is costed to upgrade to a disintegrator, which is now free but not as good).

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its not much more but every point matters when you are attempting spam things

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Wrong, same price. (actually cheaper with disintegrators but we're talking lances)

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My bad been a while since I used my old codex :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Strength 9 lances though. I don't think a bomber really looses out on destructive power.

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Your own math shows that at lance effectiveness (av12+) they are the same and lower means the ravager is better. So for more points you get less (particularly on the bomber which has no missles) so yes in respect to lance spam it is worse

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Scourges.....

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my comments were in reference to lance spam and though all your points are solid (I like using 5 man squads to deepstrike with 2 haywire blasters to stop tanks cold) they do not have much relevance to whether the new list can spam more lances and I mentioned the scourges for completeness

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

All you lose is 10 man squads with 2 lances sitting there pretending to be devastators, which never felt like a very Dark Eldar thing to do so I'm glad its gone.

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I agree it is an ok change (though I miss it) however that was the core of lance spam.

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

Your own math shows that at lance effectiveness (av12+) they are the same and lower means the ravager is better. So for more points you get less (particularly on the bomber which has no missles) so yes in respect to lance spam it is worse

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The bomber does have missiles, they just aren't free.

While it doesn't help for lance spam, the bomber has no need to be shooting at vehicles that have armour under AV12.

I don't see how still having the old lance spam option but having a new less lance spammy option makes lance spam worse, it just makes the army better.

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

my comments were in reference to lance spam and though all your points are solid (I like using 5 man squads to deepstrike with 2 haywire blasters to stop tanks cold) they do not have much relevance to whether the new list can spam more lances and I mentioned the scourges for completeness

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My point was that scourges were never part of lance spam (unlike the warriors as you mention in your next point), so their revamp isn't so relevant. Which I may be wrong about since I didn't really fight DA more than once.

Scourges with haywire blasters have a 36" threat range. Why would you deepstrike unless you were fighting basilisks on a massive board?

Deepstrike is for heat lances.

Can a monolith be stopped from firing its particle whip by being crew stunned? The necron player I played said it couldn't but he was wrong on a lot of stuff. If you can stun them then the haywire blaster seems like the answer to the one unit that laughs at dark lances (thankfully for me the BT blessed LRC laughs at being stunned/shaken).

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

I agree it is an ok change (though I miss it) however that was the core of lance spam.

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While lance spam is reduced a little, I think its just as much due to DA's new ability to do something else as it is to do with their reduced ability to take lances.

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Scourges with haywire blasters have a 36" threat range. Why would you deepstrike unless you were fighting basilisks on a massive board?

Deepstrike is for heat lances.

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I prefer them being able to come down and be effevitve without the risk turn 1 of them getting shot of the board due to being a small very expensive unit

heat lance IMHO look cool on paper but are just bad in game. Haywire are 100% better

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

While lance spam is reduced a little, I think its just as much due to DA's new ability to do something else as it is to do with their reduced ability to take lances.

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what do you mean by being able to do something else? I feel the DE have not really gained or lost any tactic which they used to be able to run (except horror/terror- fex spam)

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

I prefer them being able to come down and be effevitve without the risk turn 1 of them getting shot of the board due to being a small very expensive unit

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I'd rather risk that than risk them not turning up until turn 3/4. Its not like you have decent of angels (which is a reroll on the reserves roll, the half distance scatter that everyone thinks of is an inconsequential freebie).

Anyway.

1. They're jump infantry, they can easily hide at the back of your army or in terrain and then jump forwards.

2. You're dark eldar. There should be a lot of stuff that's putting even greater pressure on your opponent and needs to die more than the five guys with wings.

3. Webway portals are safer than deepstriking and not a bad choice even with scourges. But still not as good as being there from turn 1.

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

3. Webway portals are safer than deepstriking and not a bad choice even with scourges. But still not as good as being there from turn 1.

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the other things are valid (I have played only 1 game with them thus far in reserve and they did fantastic in that capacity)

however I would like to point out this is not a valid reason to not keep them in reserve due to the extensive range of the Hblasters they can deepstrike pretty much anywhere and be in range of their target so they unlike other options do not need the portal. It is the reason I like them in reserve because they are a wild card

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

the other things are valid (I have played only 1 game with them thus far in reserve and they did fantastic in that capacity)

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Guess it just remains for you to play several games using them both ways and then decide what's best.

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

It is the reason I like them in reserve because they are a wild card

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Card game analogies only work when everyone has to take reserves. Otherwise you're just waisting points.

Sometimes its good to keep something safe in reserve until the counters that can easily kill it are dead/tied up in combat/crew stunned. But scourges don't fit into that because you need them neutralising the enemy.

This arguement is pretty pointless now, but its inspired me to try and make a list.

Spoiler

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Duke Sliscus (I still think he sucks but this list does something with him, assaulting arguements aside you can atleast disembark and shoot with him unlike with retrofire jets)

Haemonculus
webway portal (because Sliscus can't have it :smallmad:)
85 points

Elites
5 Kabalite Trueborn
4 blasters
venom
dual splinter cannons
185 points

5 Kabalite Trueborn
4 blasters
venom
dual splinter cannons
185 points

5 Kabalite Trueborn
4 blasters
venom
dual splinter cannons
185 points

I thought these guys would be expensive but compare them to devastators and they're alright. Actually compare them to taking a rocket launcher devastator squad and a typhoon landspeeder.

Troops
10 Wyches
Hekatrix with agoniser
135 points

10 Wyches
Hekatrix with agoniser
Venom (its not for them, its for the haemonculus)
185 points

Sliscus goes with one of them.

Fast Attack
5 scourges
2 haywire blasters
130 points

5 scourges
2 haywire blasters
130 points

5 scourges
2 haywire blasters
130 points

1500 points

The scourges, the haemonculus and the wyche's venom start on the board. I think its legal to put a unit in reserve but not the dedicated transport. Not sure if its legal for the haemonculus to start in the venom or not, since it says "may only contain... ... plus any independant characters", which is ambiguous as to whether or not the independant character can only start in there if the unit is in there. To be honest the portal probably isn't worth it but I want to use reserves and I want to assault.

Anyay, the haemonculus runs forwards on the venom and drops the portal. The scourges stun any tanks (a half or a third of his army if he's a mech list).

Turn 2 the trueborn start nuking tanks and the venoms start butchering infantry. The wyches charge who they can.

Don't think it will work to be honest but it was an idea. I'm feeding my enemy kill points and I only have 2 fragile objective sitters. But if they get knocked down to 5 women units the venoms can pick them up and take them to objectives.

Maybe I should swap a trueborn unit for more wyches. Only reason its so small is I wanted to keep it at 1500. To be honest I'm only using wyches as not to waste one of Sliscus' abilities, but I'm wasting another one right now since I don't have any dakka trueborn. But venoms can dakka while only trueborns can tank hunt, so dakka trueborn in venoms would be bad idea and I don't have the points for a full unit of dakka trueborn in a raider (which is like the anti-venom in that it can tank hunt or marine hunt but not dakka).

Sliscus has his own drugs, but the results he wants everyone else to have (+1 Strength or rerolling to wound) are useless to him.

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

But scourges don't fit into that because you need them neutralising the enemy.

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I think thats a little arbitrary. You should not need them i.e. have an entire game hing on their presence. Instead they are a very good solution when you can't deal with something (no matter the problems position) because of their diverse weapons (carbines and blasters)

T

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Elites
5 Kabalite Trueborn
4 blasters
venom
dual splinter cannons
185 points

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I run these and they are fantastic but drop the extra trueborn as he is not worth it because his gun will be useless 95% of the time and that saves you 66 points (enough for a raider)

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

10 Wyches
Hekatrix with agoniser
Venom (its not for them, its for the haemonculus)
185 points

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you can not take the venom because you can only take transports which are large enough to hold the entire squad (its on pg 91 above the transports)

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Sliscus goes with one of them.

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he can't because he must start in a warrior or a trueborn squad

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Fast Attack
5 scourges
2 haywire blasters
130 points

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I like these guys but you should have a full assortment of heavy before you start adding these guys to a list. For the same points you can have ravagers which fill the same roll but do it better

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

strategy

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this is very similar to my own list and it runs well, however you are underestimating the problem mech will give the list. I run 10 man warrior squads with lances with raiders with lances just to deal with mech because troops tend to not be the problem (with all the venoms and other heavy weapons dealing with troops rather well) However I do not think the webway is a very good option and you would find that the webway (if you do not get turn 1) will never leave your deployment zone effectively neutering your wyches

GAMES DAY & GOLDEN DEMON AUSTRALIA 2011 (back after how many years?)

OCTOBER 1ST 2011, AUSTRALIAN TECHNOLOGY PARK, SYDNEY.

Games Day is the ultimate celebration of our hobby; a day to meet up with old friends and a chance to bump into a few of the famous faces from around the Studio and the creators of your favourite Citadel miniatures, books and games. Hobbyists travel from across the world and each year's show features a multitude of participation games that you can dive into and take part in; from quick-play skirmishes to full-on grand battles, and all the miniatures are provided. All you have to do is turn up and play!

Games Day is also home to Golden Demon, the most prestigious miniatures painting competition in the world. Every year, thousands take part in the hope of winning one of the prized Golden Demon trophies, and for the ultimate winner, the Slayer Sword. But for those of us who can only aspire to paint to the level of Golden Demon, it is a fabulous opportunity to see some of the finest examples of converted and painted Citadel miniatures anywhere in the world.


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I'll be there for sure - any other Playgrounders be going (sure it's a long way off, but still).

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Originally Posted by Winterwind

And if not, are you planning to write one sometime, Cheese? Because I'd be really, really interested in hearing what you think of it (now that I finally have gotten it myself). :smallsmile:

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Umm...If that's what people want? I'll see if I can have one up before the weekend. Problem is, people have already been through the Codex, so, I'm just afraid of repeating what some people might already know or have figured out on their own.

Still, if its what people want, I'll give it a shot.

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Originally Posted by Zorg

I'll be there for sure - any other Playgrounders be going (sure it's a long way off, but still).

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If I can afford it, damn skippy.

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Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

...You appear to be pleased by this. Why.

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Maybe it's all the 3++ I've been reading, but I'm not sold on comp. Not that I ever really was, though. I read through the local TO's notes and just thought about how truly broken his system was ...

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Originally Posted by Zorg

I'll be there for sure - any other Playgrounders be going (sure it's a long way off, but still).

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Maybe?

I'm in the 'Berra, but I might make it up for the occasion. Maybe I can be slaughtered by 40k playin' playgrounders! :smallbiggrin:

[QUOTE=crazedloon;9818444]
I run these and they are fantastic but drop the extra trueborn as he is not worth it because his gun will be useless 95% of the time and that saves you 66 points (enough for a raider)

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

you can not take the venom because you can only take transports which are large enough to hold the entire squad (its on pg 91 above the transports)

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I assumed a 5th ed book wouldn't have that restriction, but oh well.

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

he can't because he must start in a warrior or a trueborn squad

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Yeah, missed that.

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

I like these guys but you should have a full assortment of heavy before you start adding these guys to a list. For the same points you can have ravagers which fill the same roll but do it better

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I was trying to do something differant. It might not work as well, but saying "add heavy to make it like a normal list" isn't really relevant.

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

this is very similar to my own list and it runs well, however you are underestimating the problem mech will give the list.

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Its an anti-mech list. If it can't handle mech then its just a bad list.

I could change it to:

Spoiler

Show

Duke Sliscus

Haemonculus

Elites
4 Kabalite Trueborn
4 blasters
venom
dual splinter cannons
173 points

4 Kabalite Trueborn
4 blasters
venom
dual splinter cannons
173 points

Troops
10 Wyches
Hekatrix with agoniser and blast pistol
raider with flickerfield
215 points

10 Wyches
Hekatrix with agoniser
raider with flickerfield
200 points

9 warriors
sybarite with agoniser, blaster
raider with flickerfield
196
Sliscus goes with them.

Fast Attack
5 scourges
2 haywire blasters
130 points

5 scourges
2 haywire blasters
130 points

5 scourges
2 haywire blasters
130 points

1500 points

But I don't really know what those raiders are going to do. If they deepstrike the passangers are useless for 2 turns at least and if they don't there isn't enough saturation for them to survive.

Probably not viable unless you change the intent of the list.

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Originally Posted by Klose_the_Sith

Maybe it's all the 3++ I've been reading, but I'm not sold on comp. Not that I ever really was, though. I read through the local TO's notes and just thought about how truly broken his system was ...

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Warhammer 40,000 is, in no respects, a balanced system. Comp goes some way towards alleviating this problem. It's not perfect, but it's far better than the alternative.
For one, it learns from its mistakes in short order. Example! Local power-gamer annihilated Conflict with the psyker-assassin list before people knew about it. In every tournament from then on, such a combo put you at a severe disadvantage, if it wasn't banned outright. Alternative? Just plain put up with it until the next IG/DH/WH books.

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Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

Warhammer 40,000 is, in no respects, a balanced system. Comp goes some way towards alleviating this problem. It's not perfect, but it's far better than the alternative.
For one, it learns from its mistakes in short order. Example! Local power-gamer annihilated Conflict with the psyker-assassin list before people knew about it. In every tournament from then on, such a combo put you at a severe disadvantage, if it wasn't banned outright. Alternative? Just plain put up with it until the next IG/DH/WH books.

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I dunno, that smacks a little of just banning a list because other people weren't beating it. There's no such thing as an unbeatable army, so why ban any? Sure, some are better than others. That's list building. A tournament which doesn't advertise itself as friendly should accept this degree of competition, rather than trying to discourage it.

Friendly tournament? Well that's a whole different matter ...

And I'm pretty sure that (although not being pound-for-pound perfect) the 5th ed codices can (more or less) match each other in their own ways. The older codices can suffer a little, which does suck, admittedly, but once they're updated everything'll be ayyy ...

... just in time for sixth edition! :smallwink:

Okay, here's a scenario. You're going into a campaign. The campaign's (relevant) rules are such: It's doubles, and you get a partner who you stick with through the whole thing. Everyone must match the point totals of the player who brings the smallest list, and you don't know who your opponents will be (at least for the first night). You don't know who your partner's going to be either because you had to leave the store before signups were done.

So you need to make a variety of lists at different standard sizes to prepare for pretty much any eventuality. And you have about twelve hours to do it, during which you need to sleep.

You have the following models to work with:

Spoiler

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4 heavy weapon teams - 2 heavy bolter, 1 autocannon, 1 lascannon

54 Guardsmen - 2 flamers, 3 grenade launchers, 1 sniper rifle, 1 plasma gun, 1 meltagun, 5 vox-casters, 1 regimental standard, 1 medi-pack, 5 sergeants, rest normal

10 Kasrkin (storm troopers) - 1 flamer, 1 grenade launcher, 1 sergeant, 7 normal

1 company commander w/power fist, 1 astropath, 1 officer of the fleet, 1 master of ordnance

4 Chimeras - 2 normal, 1 dual heavy flamers, 1 heavy bolter turret. One additional if the one you're working on gets finished in the next hour or so, default armament.

And hey, look, you're in my exact situation. :smalltongue: Anyone got any bright ideas? And yes, I'm stuck with the above, and I didn't choose the infantry setup; as I think I mentioned last thread, I got my infantry used and haven't had a chance to change anything up yet. It's not a tournament, so I don't have to adhere as strictly to WYSIWYG, but I'd like to be close so I don't forget myself what's what. I'm working on getting a fifth Chimera together and trying to come up with lists, but if I can get pointers to narrow my options a bit, it would speed things up, and I would like to get it done so I can sleep. :smallwink:

Note: Even barring my own preference for veterans, I pretty much have to take my infantry as veterans anyway, since I don't have a platoon command squad, making any other troops choice (besides penal legionnaires and their randomness, which I loathe) illegal.

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Originally Posted by Klose_the_Sith

I dunno, that smacks a little of just banning a list because other people weren't beating it. There's no such thing as an unbeatable army, so why ban any? Sure, some are better than others. That's list building. A tournament which doesn't advertise itself as friendly should accept this degree of competition, rather than trying to discourage it.

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His army was a running challenge at the GW Sydney Battle Bunker. Many people attempted to play against it; after a while the question became not whether you won or lost, but how many turns you lasted before being tabled.
I think the record was 4.

There is no such thing as an unbeatable army, correct. There is, however, such a thing as an army you cannot beat without being a prodigy of Warhammer tactics, incredible luck, and a similar or greater degree of rules abuse and combinations that prove GW's poor standards of play-testing.

I don't know about you, but a top ten at 9/10 tournaments consisting of IG/IG/IG/SW/BA/'Nids/SM/IG/CSM/BA doesn't particularly appeal to me. Indeed, it smacks of "spend $40 to get five slightly boring, repetitive games".
The question posed to Warhammer Fantasy GT winners is not "How did you pull that off?", but rather "What filthy list did you bring?" The game becomes less and less about tactics and game playing and more and more about cheese lists and luck. And that's just not fun.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Umm...If that's what people want? I'll see if I can have one up before the weekend. Problem is, people have already been through the Codex, so, I'm just afraid of repeating what some people might already know or have figured out on their own.

Still, if its what people want, I'll give it a shot.

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Just to register interest, I would read it. :smallbiggrin:

Doubly so if it is full of the Cheesegear amusing comments and remarks found in your previous battle reports!

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Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

His army was a running challenge at the GW Sydney Battle Bunker. Many people attempted to play against it; after a while the question became not whether you won or lost, but how many turns you lasted before being tabled.
I think the record was 4.

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Wait, what do you mean by 'psyker-assassin' list? Cause this sounds fairly interesting ...

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Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

There is no such thing as an unbeatable army, correct. There is, however, such a thing as an army you cannot beat without being a prodigy of Warhammer tactics, incredible luck, and a similar or greater degree of rules abuse and combinations that prove GW's poor standards of play-testing.

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Having never encountered any such lists myself, I can't really comment. Maybe I'll go looking for some min-maxing at Cancon this year, but I'm pretty sure there's always a way around it. There are mobile lists and static lists, foot-horde lists and mech lists. Also hybrid lists, which I'm not particularly fond of but still seem to do alright.

Some of these will be weak, but generally there isn't anything so broken in the upper tiers that it has no counter. Lists that rely on psykers can be beaten with hats. Lists that rely on firepower can be either outmaneuvred, outgunned or overwhelmed. No army can do everything that you could want it to and the game consists of exploiting the other lists weaknesses in areas that you're strong.

... or at least it always has for me. It's worth noting just how light-hearted my responses really are, I don't have that much experience and my own meta-game is probably too small scale to indicate anything.

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Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

I don't know about you, but a top ten at 9/10 tournaments consisting of IG/IG/IG/SW/BA/'Nids/SM/IG/CSM/BA doesn't particularly appeal to me. Indeed, it smacks of "spend $40 to get five slightly boring, repetitive games".
The question posed to Warhammer Fantasy GT winners is not "How did you pull that off?", but rather "What filthy list did you bring?" The game becomes less and less about tactics and game playing and more and more about cheese lists and luck. And that's just not fun.

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From what I remember when I used to play 40k (4th? 3.5? I'm not sure) there wasn't anything that tactical about it. Seems an awful lot more tactical to me in 5th ed, with streamlined rules and codices. Less focus on rules, more focus on game and so forth.

IG might be a strong, competitive codex - but it can be beaten. I know they can be particularly hard to deal with when entrenched and turning all their anti-tank on your poor metal bawkses, but it's a question of weathering the storm and commencing counter-assault.

Yes, the 5th ed codices have an advantage in 5th ed ... but they don't really have an advantage over each other particularly. The more codices they update, the better the game seems to get. A couple of lists and approaches are virtually unstoppable at more casual play, but this just means you need to harden up your list in some way. Painful (oh Tactical spam, just how I miss you :smallfrown:), but can be done.

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Originally Posted by Klose_the_Sith

Wait, what do you mean by 'psyker-assassin' list? Cause this sounds fairly interesting ...

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Inquisitor Lord (to open up access to Culexus Assassin) 1 culexus assassin, and two full Psyker Battle Squads. Keep the Culexus near the Battle Squads, and even though they're your own psykers, they boost the power of his special attacks (including Helm) way, way up.

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Can a monolith be stopped from firing its particle whip by being crew stunned? The necron player I played said it couldn't but he was wrong on a lot of stuff.

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For once, he was right, then - the rules of the particle whip explicitly state it may be used even when the crew was stunned.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Umm...If that's what people want? I'll see if I can have one up before the weekend. Problem is, people have already been through the Codex, so, I'm just afraid of repeating what some people might already know or have figured out on their own.

Still, if its what people want, I'll give it a shot.

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Well, I'm not people, I'm just one person, but I would love to read what you think of the new Dark Eldar. :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Klose_the_Sith

Wait, what do you mean by 'psyker-assassin' list? Cause this sounds fairly interesting ...

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Well, let's just say that by combining the current Imperial Guard codex with the Daemonhunters codex, you can end up having an BS5 S5 AP1 Assault 22 gun for 105 points...

And, Ninja Chocobo's Warhammer Fantasy example illustrates that Games Workshop balancing is rather sub-par on occassions perfectly. In the previous edition in WHFB, it was not uncommon you wouldn't have even a single army that was not either Daemons of Chaos, Vampire Counts or Dark Elves anywhere in the top 20 at tournaments. Not. A. Single. One. And those aren't all that old army books.

Alright alright, I take the idea back. I concede that it was poorly-conceived, and had some pretty obvious flaws. Oh well, back to the drawing board I suppose.

On a different subject matter, what does everyone think of the Dark Angel Codex? I saw Cheesegear's summarized take on the codex, but I'd really appreciate a more in-depth view of it.:smallbiggrin:

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Originally Posted by hamishspence

Inquisitor Lord (to open up access to Culexus Assassin) 1 culexus assassin, and two full Psyker Battle Squads. Keep the Culexus near the Battle Squads, and even though they're your own psykers, they boost the power of his special attacks (including Helm) way, way up.

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Callidus combined with Weaken Resolve, more.
AP2 Flamer template that wounds on twos and inflicts Instant Death. They fall back, you assault with....anything. They pass a Ld test on Ld 2 or get instantly destroyed.
Also it was a WH Inquisitor, due to Hammer of the Witches (for taking out hats), and Divine Pronouncement (for more leadership-assault shenanigans).

Combined with, I think, 2x Medusas, a Manticore, Vendettas and Autocannons, made it rather difficult for the enemy to survive.

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Originally Posted by Klose_the_Sith

Some of these will be weak, but generally there isn't anything so broken in the upper tiers that it has no counter. Lists that rely on psykers can be beaten with hats. Lists that rely on firepower can be either outmaneuvred, outgunned or overwhelmed. No army can do everything that you could want it to and the game consists of exploiting the other lists weaknesses in areas that you're strong.

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The Eldar codex would appear to be the best counter to the above example. One of the best hats in the game, most manoeuvrable tanks in the game, with the ability to drop the effectiveness of the enemy's heavy guns.
Pretty good player, tabled on turn 2.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
Umm...If that's what people want? I'll see if I can have one up before the weekend. Problem is, people have already been through the Codex, so, I'm just afraid of repeating what some people might already know or have figured out on their own.

Still, if its what people want, I'll give it a shot.
Well, I'm not people, I'm just one person, but I would love to read what you think of the new Dark Eldar.

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I would also like to read it, if nothing else because it would help me determin what targets i should kill first when i finaly face them.

Well, I've decided to put together a new army for a wargaming tournament in April, since I've been meaning to for a while and needed some motivation. :smallwink:

Anyway, I think I'm going to put together an Ork Speed Freek/FreeBoota army (because pirate orks should be great fun to convert). Here's a first draft, I've been looking through the information I can find but would appreciate any information.

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HQ

Warboss 130
Warbike, Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw

Troops

4 Nob Bikers 210
3x Kombi-skorcha and Big Choppa

12 Shoota Boyz 107
Trukk

12 Shoota Boyz 107
Trukk

12 Shoota Boyz 107
Trukk

12 Slugga Boyz 152
Nob: Power Klaw
Trukk: Armour Plates, Red Paint Job

12 Slugga Boyz 152
Nob: Power Klaw
Trukk: Armour Plates, Red Paint Job

Fast Attack

4 Warbikers 135
Nob: Power Klaw

4 Warbikers 135
Nob: Power Klaw

2 Deffkoptas 100
Bigbomm x2

Heavy Support

Killa Kan 40
Skorcha

2 Killa Kans 80
Skorchas

Killa Kan 45
Grotzooka

Total: 1500 Points.

I'm really surprised by how cheap Kombi-skorchas are. A oneshot Heavy Flamer looks ridiculously good to me, especially since you can still charge afterwards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lord_khaine

I would also like to read it, if nothing else because it would help me determin what targets i should kill first when i finaly face them.

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1st: kill the heavy support followed by the transports
2nd: use your flamers and other weapons which ignore cover to kill reavers
3rd: use your dedicated assault troops to hit hellions, scourges, warriors, trueborn

the rest should fold from there. Without the heavy support DE will have a hard time with armor. Without thier transports their problem with armor is compounded and DE troops fall apart to most shooting due to a 5+ armor.

The only time this changes is if they are playing a webway portal army in which case the unit with the portal is your first target.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

Callidus combined with Weaken Resolve, more.
AP2 Flamer template that wounds on twos and inflicts Instant Death. They fall back, you assault with....anything. They pass a Ld test on Ld 2 or get instantly destroyed.
Also it was a WH Inquisitor, due to Hammer of the Witches (for taking out hats), and Divine Pronouncement (for more leadership-assault shenanigans).

Combined with, I think, 2x Medusas, a Manticore, Vendettas and Autocannons, made it rather difficult for the enemy to survive.

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Alright, that does sound pretty damn painful :smalleek:

I'm still not sure that it's unbeatable, but I'm more than a little concerned now.

Still, as I said, that sort of problem doesn't emerge in my metagame, so it's probably just a matter of tunnel vision :smallsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

The Eldar codex would appear to be the best counter to the above example. One of the best hats in the game, most manoeuvrable tanks in the game, with the ability to drop the effectiveness of the enemy's heavy guns.
Pretty good player, tabled on turn 2.

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Every time I see Eldar run it seems to be 'good on paper, bad at war'. I only lost to Eldar last time I played because I actually forgot that something was an objective ... cause it was just a dice marking the spot :smallwink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Klose_the_Sith

Every time I see Eldar run it seems to be 'good on paper, bad at war'. I only lost to Eldar last time I played because I actually forgot that something was an objective ... cause it was just a dice marking the spot :smallwink:

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Well it depends a lot on the player. In my local group there was an Eldar player before me that (they said) just complained about how overpowered every other army was and could never win. And then when I started I surprised a lot of the players here by beating everyone I played, and usually by very large margins. In fact I've only had 1 draw and 2 losses in all the games I played, and one of the losses should have been a draw or a win for me if it wasn't for several consecutive very good roles that keep a unit of 3 orks from running off an objective and then the game ending on turn 5. I stopped counting my wins around 25-30ish.

I also tend to run what a lot of people would consider non-tournament lists. Never taken a seer council, never fielded a wraithlord or wraithguard, and I do take guardians.

Eldar just takes more planning then a lot of other armies and a good understanding of what can and can't be accomplished by any given unit.

Short answer is don't underestimate any army. As it is, for all the claims here that guard are very powerful and one of the better armies, locally they still have a hard time winning. I haven't had any trouble beating them with several different players using them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erloas

Well it depends a lot on the player. In my local group there was an Eldar player before me that (they said) just complained about how overpowered every other army was and could never win. And then when I started I surprised a lot of the players here by beating everyone I played, and usually by very large margins. In fact I've only had 1 draw and 2 losses in all the games I played, and one of the losses should have been a draw or a win for me if it wasn't for several consecutive very good roles that keep a unit of 3 orks from running off an objective and then the game ending on turn 5. I stopped counting my wins around 25-30ish.

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And while I bow in deference to your insane win record, I'm still left wondering just what sort of lists are in your metagame? Cause that's pretty crazy awesome right there :smallbiggrin:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erloas

I also tend to run what a lot of people would consider non-tournament lists. Never taken a seer council, never fielded a wraithlord or wraithguard, and I do take guardians.

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Wrathlords aren't exactly competitive these days, but I get what you mean :smallwink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erloas

Eldar just takes more planning then a lot of other armies and a good understanding of what can and can't be accomplished by any given unit.

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Probably true, good sir :smallsmile:

I'm wondering exactly what you mean by planning, though. How do you handle setting up first, for example? Or do you just mean being prepared to react to your opponents list?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erloas

Short answer is don't underestimate any army. As it is, for all the claims here that guard are very powerful and one of the better armies, locally they still have a hard time winning. I haven't had any trouble beating them with several different players using them.

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Which again just begs the question of what sort of lists do the guard players run. Do they handle target priority well? Do they ever use any tactics beyond just gunlining it up and hoping for the best?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Klose_the_Sith

I'm wondering exactly what you mean by planning, though. How do you handle setting up first, for example? Or do you just mean being prepared to react to your opponents list?

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Well part of it is being a very mobile force, the ability to move and react quickly to what your opponent does. Part of it is looking at the board layout and knowing the likely ways someone can deploy. The main part is using your units to force your opponents actions, movements and targets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Klose_the_Sith

Which again just begs the question of what sort of lists do the guard players run. Do they handle target priority well? Do they ever use any tactics beyond just gunlining it up and hoping for the best?

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There have been number of different lists. I've faced infantry heavy, mech, and a few others.

Alright, so I slept on it and came up with another list. I'm pretty happy with it, but I have a sinking feeling that it's not equipped to handle hordes.

Spoiler

Show

HQ

Librarian with Terminator Armor, Storm Shield [140]

Elites

Sternguard Veteran Squad with Combi-Meltas x10, Drop Pod [335]

Troops

Tactical Space Marine Squad with Plasma Gun, Lascannon, Razorback with Twin-Linked Lascannon [265]

Tactical Space Marine Squad with Plasma Gun, Lascannon, Razorback with Twin-Linked Lascannon [265]

Tactical Space Marine Squad with Plasma Gun, Lascannon, Razorback with Twin-Linked Lascannon [265]

Tactical Space Marine Squad with Plasma Gun, Lascannon, Razorback with Twin-Linked Lascannon [265]

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad with Missile Launchers x4 [150]

Devastator Squad with Missile Launchers x4 [150]

Whirlwind [85]

Total: 1920

I have no idea what I can do with the leftover points.

I'd appreciate any advice and suggestions! :smallsmile: