Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

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Originally Posted by Ninjaman

I would remove Vildin-Pack Outcast, seven mana is enough that you have to play more mana that you often would and you probably can't activate it through one land destruction spell. Ravager Wurm feels similarly out of place in a cube where everything else is 4 mana or less.
I think these cards would all be better in its place:
Harbinger of the Hunt
Blitz Hellion (actually quite cool for this format)
Regisaur Alpha
Ulrich of the KrallenHorde.


I would add Channeler Initiate as it is both a mana dork and a beater.
If blue black has zombies as a theme then why isn't Cemetery Reaper in here?

Rapid Rehybridization feels really bad in this cube.
Dreamstalker seems bad, am I missing something?
Convincing Mirage is a terrible card.
If zombies is a theme why is Gutterbones in here instead of Gravecrawler?
I'm not sold on Mob in this.
Whipflare should be Pyroclasm.
I'd replace Skin Invasion with something else.
Talons of Wildwood is really week without any enchantment synergy.
Enigma Drake seems to be too small too much of the time.

Steel Leaf Champion is too difficult to cast in this cube.

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Vilden-Pack Outcast is a payoff card for the ramp deck but is definitely on the weak side. It's been on the chopping block for a while. The idea was that there are payoff cards that the ramp deck can pick up that the other decks probably wouldn't be able to cast, so they're more likely to wheel to the player picking up the dorks; that's why they're so expensive. Ravager Wurm has been pretty decent since it usually eats something and then presents a solid threat, but the outcast is probably getting cut next rotation.
It's been last or second to last pick a lot, and hasn't made the cuts in most of the decks it's been drafted in. Blitz Hellion is radical and would be perfect for the format, so I'm going to try to track down a copy.

I actually have a copy of Channler Initiate in my maybeboard for the cube! It's been tough finding space for things since the cube is so small; the maybeboard is literally bigger than the cube. Too much cool stuff, not enough space.

Zombies has Havengul Runebinder instead of Cemetary Reaper, and also has Diregraf Captain. I'm leery of adding a third lord because the deck is already quite strong but I could see the argument being made for redundancy. On a related note, Gravecrawler isn't in the cube because I don't own a copy and have tried to not intentionally spend money on the cube, but I have been trying to trade for one.

Hybridization is in the cube because I wanted to include cards where the drawback is weighted differently due to the format. It's valuable as a 1 mana answer to any creature, but a number of the creatures you want to kill are dangerous for utility, not size, meaning you have to accept the fact that you now have a 3/3 beater to deal with.

Dreamstalker has a FAT butt for 2 mana. It's a card that the slower decks might want to clog the ground until they can stabilize, and it can be used to reset ETB effects or clear away pacifism-type effects.

I think you're sleeping on Mirage! Even though you don't get to draw like with Spreading Seas, it lets you guaranteed hose a greedy mana base and it cripples the Karoo lands, which are very powerful. I'll concede that it's much more of a sideboard card than Seas because without the cantrip you need to be playing it because you really want the effect, but strong sideboard options are good because changing cards is a much larger percentage change than in other formats and you're much more likely to draw them.

Mob has been decent; I'd like to play with it more before I make a final decision.

Whipflare/Pyroclasm is pretty much the same because the only creature that Pyroclasm would kill that Whipflare doesn't is Lore Seeker. Also, set foil!

Skin Invasion was a choice to try to give red a way to force utility creatures into combat and receive a one mana 3/4 as a reward, but in practice it's been pretty lackluster. I'm open to suggestions for replacements on this one.

Talons of Wildwood is certainly no Rancor, but it gives trample, which is huge for the decks that want to play big creatures-there are a LOT of ways to gum up the board in this format, so it gives a way to punch through tokens and mother of runes and stuff. Also of note is that unless it gets exiled, it will always come back, so if you have the mana you're guaranteed value out of it.

Drake *has* been kind of unexciting, but sometimes all you need is a three mana 3/4. It could probably be something more punchy though.

Steel Leaf is highly color restrictive, so it's more of a build-around card if you find it early. And boy, is it worth it; monogreen is a deck you can draft and this card is a terror to see on turn 2 if curved out of a dork. Also, it's still fine to splash a second color due to the Karoos and due to how likely you are to draw your splash land.

I need opinions on the following idea. I want to play as Not-Oko in my upcoming Pathfinder Kingmaker PbP campaign. I don't want to overdo the joke but I feel a Sylvan Sorcerer (basically a Fey sorcerer with an elk companion) is incredibly flavorful. Of course my spell selection would focus on creating food, polymorphing my enemies and friends (as well as summoning more animals/various elks). I don't want the personality of Oko to overtake my character however but I want to genuinely RP a chaotic trickster faerie.

Do you think the idea of "fey with elk companion" is a tired joke that gets old? I consider myself a rather "Vorthos"-esque player that enjoys decks that works on a subtheme of the expansion in question that could feasably be used to tell a story, such as Dimir Midrange Surveil or pre-rotation Discover Golgari Midrange. (The idea of getting so much psychic energy that you can unshackle the Thoughtbound Phantasms from their host bodies and buff the Spy Bugs/cooperate with Doom Whisperers in turn for your life force (pay life to surveil is so awesome.) So I enjoy a deck or legendary creature purely for flavor reasons. Similarly I enjoyed the premade brawl decks because they all heavily play with the ideas of the commanders (Chulane telling stories of monsters, Korvold eating entire feasts, tokens and even lands or Alela attracting tiny Faeries with shiny objects). But in the same lane I don't want to overburden my DM with potentially arcane jokes about food, elks and stupid sexy planeswalkers.

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Originally Posted by Duos

I actually have a copy of Channler Initiate in my maybeboard for the cube! It's been tough finding space for things since the cube is so small; the maybeboard is literally bigger than the cube. Too much cool stuff, not enough space.

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I would cut Joiner Adept for it.

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Zombies has Havengul Runebinder instead of Cemetary Reaper, and also has Diregraf Captain. I'm leery of adding a third lord because the deck is already quite strong but I could see the argument being made for redundancy. On a related note, Gravecrawler isn't in the cube because I don't own a copy and have tried to not intentionally spend money on the cube, but I have been trying to trade for one.

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The cube has literally two synergy cards for zombies. That's not an archetype.
And return from extinction I guess.

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Dreamstalker has a FAT butt for 2 mana. It's a card that the slower decks might want to clog the ground until they can stabilize, and it can be used to reset ETB effects or clear away pacifism-type effects.

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That just seems bad. If you want a butt there are way better cards, and if you want a blink there are way better cards.

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I think you're sleeping on Mirage! Even though you don't get to draw like with Spreading Seas, it lets you guaranteed hose a greedy mana base and it cripples the Karoo lands, which are very powerful. I'll concede that it's much more of a sideboard card than Seas because without the cantrip you need to be playing it because you really want the effect, but strong sideboard options are good because changing cards is a much larger percentage change than in other formats and you're much more likely to draw them.

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That's not the kind of card I would want in this type of cube.

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Mob has been decent; I'd like to play with it more before I make a final decision.

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I think I would have murderous cut instead.

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Whipflare/Pyroclasm is pretty much the same because the only creature that Pyroclasm would kill that Whipflare doesn't is Lore Seeker. Also, set foil!

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The problem is cubes need to be intuitive. When people read the nonartifact text on Whipflare they think it's relevant.

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Talons of Wildwood is certainly no Rancor, but it gives trample, which is huge for the decks that want to play big creatures-there are a LOT of ways to gum up the board in this format, so it gives a way to punch through tokens and mother of runes and stuff. Also of note is that unless it gets exiled, it will always come back, so if you have the mana you're guaranteed value out of it.

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It still seems really weak. There has to be better trample enablers around.
If you had aura synergy I can see it being good enough.

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Drake *has* been kind of unexciting, but sometimes all you need is a three mana 3/4. It could probably be something more punchy though.

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A 3/4 that requires you to play two colors, and cries against graveyard hate is pretty terrible though.
Gelectrode, Frostburn Weird, Izzet Guildmage, all seem better, though Izzet don't have that many cards that would be good in this format.

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Steel Leaf is highly color restrictive, so it's more of a build-around card if you find it early. And boy, is it worth it; monogreen is a deck you can draft and this card is a terror to see on turn 2 if curved out of a dork. Also, it's still fine to splash a second color due to the Karoos and due to how likely you are to draw your splash land.

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If you're going to reward people for playing mono you shouldn't be doing it in just one color though.

The archetypes should all have roughly the same level of specificity. Equipment is for instance much harder to do than aggro. Some of the more specific ones also don't have sufficient support.

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Originally Posted by Ninjaman

I would cut Joiner Adept for it.

The cube has literally two synergy cards for zombies. That's not an archetype.
And return from extinction I guess.

That just seems bad. If you want a butt there are way better cards, and if you want a blink there are way better cards.

That's not the kind of card I would want in this type of cube.

I think I would have murderous cut instead.

The problem is cubes need to be intuitive. When people read the nonartifact text on Whipflare they think it's relevant.

It still seems really weak. There has to be better trample enablers around.
If you had aura synergy I can see it being good enough.

A 3/4 that requires you to play two colors, and cries against graveyard hate is pretty terrible though.
Gelectrode, Frostburn Weird, Izzet Guildmage, all seem better, though Izzet don't have that many cards that would be good in this format.

If you're going to reward people for playing mono you shouldn't be doing it in just one color though.

The archetypes should all have roughly the same level of specificity. Equipment is for instance much harder to do than aggro. Some of the more specific ones also don't have sufficient support.

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Joiner seems like a fair cut. It's mostly there to help enable the five color decks like the Hymn of the Wilds, Emissary's Ploy, and Chamber Sentry decks.

Dreamstalker has actually played fairly well, but it *is* a low draft pick...I'll start searching for alternatives.

I think this one is a difference of opinion. I've seen it played to great effect.

Cut is probably better than Mob, but I'll have to track down a copy first.

That's a pretty good point! I should make that swap, then.

It's slow for sure, but it's not bad. There *are* a few other options for that slot; Cartouche of Strength, Ferocity of the Wilds, Mob Mentality, and Nylea all seem alright. But I do want to try to not replace cards with betters cards if it's constnatly creeping the acerage CMC of the cube upwards; I had that problem for a bit and it made the format a little too durdley.

Spellslinger is tough to do on both a money *and* mana budget. It's probably the weakest Izzet card, but I'd be unsure what to put in it's spot. Maybe something like Adeliz?

Supporting all the archetypes equally has been a real challenge. The Equipment archetype in particular is tough since other decks can decide they want the sticks as well and you're left with bad creatures that don't do anything; the most recent change was to add the color equipment from M20. I'm probably going to try to squeeze Embercleave and either Godsend or Mace of the Valiant as the next step to try to curb that issue if the deck continues to under-perform.

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Originally Posted by Duos

It's slow for sure, but it's not bad. There *are* a few other options for that slot; Cartouche of Strength, Ferocity of the Wilds, Mob Mentality, and Nylea all seem alright. But I do want to try to not replace cards with betters cards if it's constnatly creeping the acerage CMC of the cube upwards; I had that problem for a bit and it made the format a little too durdley.

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Fists of Ironwood costs the same and also supports the tokens archetype.

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Spellslinger is tough to do on both a money *and* mana budget. It's probably the weakest Izzet card, but I'd be unsure what to put in it's spot. Maybe something like Adeliz?

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Wizards could work as the Izzet archetype. There is a lot of support, but unfortunately a lot of it draws cards which isn't as good in this.

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Supporting all the archetypes equally has been a real challenge. The Equipment archetype in particular is tough since other decks can decide they want the sticks as well and you're left with bad creatures that don't do anything; the most recent change was to add the color equipment from M20. I'm probably going to try to squeeze Embercleave and either Godsend or Mace of the Valiant as the next step to try to curb that issue if the deck continues to under-perform.

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I tried drafting the boros equipment in one of my drafts and it was actually easier than I expected.
There is too few red cards that support it though. I can see Goblin Graveleer was cut. Champion of the Flame also works. Kazuul's Toll Collector and Valduk, Keeper of the Flame too. I was also surprised by the lack of Kor Duelist.

Aggro is surprisingly poorly supported.

I'm just gonna stop by to brag about something, then vanish again:

I recently won an Arena match against one of the Arena devs. The one named "OrangeJulius" specifically.

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Originally Posted by Ninjaman

Fists of Ironwood costs the same and also supports the tokens archetype.


Wizards could work as the Izzet archetype. There is a lot of support, but unfortunately a lot of it draws cards which isn't as good in this.


I tried drafting the boros equipment in one of my drafts and it was actually easier than I expected.
There is too few red cards that support it though. I can see Goblin Graveleer was cut. Champion of the Flame also works. Kazuul's Toll Collector and Valduk, Keeper of the Flame too. I was also surprised by the lack of Kor Duelist.

Aggro is surprisingly poorly supported.

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Fists is probably the best bet. Although tokens is already pretty strong. Dragon Fangs might also be interesting if I can squeeze another six drop into that section.

Yeah, it's pretty tricky. Maybe I should do artifacts or something? there's some nice cross-pair synergy with the equipment section.

Gaveleer got cut mostly because it kept dying after a single swing. Champion would probably be much better, although Valduk has been in and out over the past few months, so maybe it's time for him to go back in. Duelist was a little too feast or famine for my liking-either you dropped bonesplitter on it and smashed or it was just a 1/1 with no text.

That's an interesting take! I've found several aggro decks have done well, although maybe I should take a closer look when they don't. What makes you say that?

Also! Some changes have been made, based on recent drafts (and feedback from people, yourself included. Hooray, you helped!):

Spoiler: Changelog

Show

Dream Stalker -> Compelling Deterrence
This change was made to add more zombie support, and because Stalker has in fact been under-performing. Also, it slows down games a bit too much when it does see play.

Vilden-Pack Outcast -> Smoldering Werewolf
Outcast has been last-picked too many times, and it almost never flips. Smoldering werewolf is cheaper to both cast and transform, so it's more likely both will happen, and it has a useful ETB as well.

Convincing Mirage->Hypnotic Sprite
This change was made both because fliers could use another card and because Mirage has been slowly sliding down the pick order. Even if the win rate on Mirage has been high, if it's not a FUN card, it needs to come out.

Joiner Adept -> Beastcaller Savant
Adept has turned out to not be terribly useful-it's supposed to enable some of the neato five-color decks, but is very low impact and has tended to die quickly. Savant does something similar, but it trades additional ramp for restricted use, which I think leads to much more interesting deck building (and is more useful overall),

Skin Invasion -> Fae of Wishes
Not only was Invasion performing poorly, red was over-represented, while blue was under-represented. Fae is a really cool card and I'm excited to try it out. It should support some of the cool toolbox decks.

Revoke Existence -> Legacy's Allure
For similar reasons as Skin invasion, I'm removing a white card for a blue card here. Revoke is redundant with several other effects, and so will not be missed terribly. Allure is powerful, but slow, and can be played around by clever players.

Gutterbones -> Gravecrawler
We finally found a copy, bois!

Also, once again, here's the link, for interested people who have not had a chance to draft this cube: Fifteen Card Highlander

I'm digging the changes.

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Originally Posted by Duos

That's an interesting take! I've found several aggro decks have done well, although maybe I should take a closer look when they don't. What makes you say that?

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Diregraf Ghoul, Dread Wanderer and Gravecrawler are the only good 1 drops for the aggro decks in here, and both aggro and zombies fight over them.
Rigging Runner isn't a one drop since you want to attack with something before playing it.
Tin Street Dodger and Frenzied Goblin are fine as your third one drop on turn 2, but not very impressive as your first one drop on turn 1.
The lack of good one drops makes both Stormblood Berserker and Mogg Flunkies that much worse. Wretched Anurid is fine, but not impressive, and again also sought by the zombie deck. Grenzo is good. None of the red three drops are good aggro cards. Bloodfray giant is too expensive and too weak.

Inexpensive red one drops I'd rather to see:
Stromkirk Noble
Fanatical Firebrand
Firedrinker Satyr
Lightning Berserker
Legion Loyalist
Stone Wright
Zurgo Bellstriker

I guess even something like Goblin Glory Chaser, Monastery Swiftspear, Reckless Waif or Vexing Devil.


Rakdos Cackler also probably belongs in here.

For the two drops I'd prefer:
Borderland Marauder
Crimson Muckwader
Deranged Welp
Gore-House Chainwalker
Kari Zev
Lightning Mauler
Orcish Hellraiser
Slavering Nulls
War-Name Aspirant

Im poking the here to see if people are interested in themed EDH deck...

How much competitive do you like your deck?

Here's a scale:

Competitive (winning in turn 2 to 4): 9-10
Optimized: 7-8
Focused: 5-6
Casual: 3-4
Jank: 1-2

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I have one themed EDH deck that I would evaluate in the focused section (5-6) and I was wondering if others have such decks too here on the GITP forums.

If their is others like me, I was wondering if it would be interesting to try to guess the theme of each others deck by posting a decklist of our decks? Would that kind of game interest people on this forum?

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Is there something MTG related that will be released in December by the way?

How does Soul Seperator on a Clone work?
What's the P/T of the resulting token?

Am working on a Brudiclad + Helm of the Host deck and these cards will likely eventually interact.
(ideas for irregular token generation also welcome)

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Originally Posted by unseenmage

How does Soul Seperator on a Clone work?
What's the P/T of the resulting token?

Am working on a Brudiclad + Helm of the Host deck and these cards will likely eventually interact.
(ideas for irregular token generation also welcome)

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I haven't investigated in depth, but I think you get a copy of any creature on the battlefield, except 1/1, also a Spirit, and flying - assuming that you use Clone's ability. If you decline that option, you get a 1/1 flying blue Shapeshifter Spirit.

Either way, the zombie token is 0/0 and immediately dies if you don't have something boosting its toughness.

Theros: Beyond Death stuff incoming. Time for some mechanics!

ESCAPE: A keyword, a card (note CARD, it can be on things other than creatures) can escape by exiling a stated amount of cards from the graveyard and paying a cost, typically more expensive. Often comes in with a bonus. Highlight is that Elspeth's card has it.

CONSTELLATION: It's back, and basically the same. Woo. Enchantment creatures back as well obviously.

DEVOTION: It's what you'd expect, but they're playing around with it more. Daxos is real devoted to those white butts.

SAGAS: Hell yeah Sagas are back. They're a perfect fit for Theros both mechanically and flavorfully.

That all aside... Magic Legends, the Magic the Gathering Action MMORPG was announced. Beta sign ups are at PlayMagicLegends.com/beta so go get em!

Constellation is on non-enchantment permanents this time round, which is new.

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Originally Posted by Gauntlet

Constellation is on non-enchantment permanents this time round, which is new.

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I had actually not realized it was only on enchantments last go around. Cool, this'll make the as-fan for it way higher and thus it'll feel more enchantmenty a set.

Being slowly introduced to Pionner...

Sigh, I like the fact its slower then Modern but I cant find a deck that suit me.

At first I was thinking buying Monastery Mentor. Bought 3 copies when they were at 10$, now they are like 30$ each.

I had put my Modern deck project on the side as I was introduced and fall in love with COmmander format.

Now, I discovered that Pionner is the better verion of Modern. No costly fetch land is a awesome banning.

However, Monastery Mentor STILL isnt viable in Pionner I think?

I was thinking making a good Pionner deck but the only good Pionner deck I saw were all about COntrol, with cards I would have to buy a lot or that I dont like...

Pionner range of victory should be aimed to be around turn 5 or 6 right?

I was thinking making a spellslinger Monastery Mentor deck. I have two copies of Primal Amulet too for it, cards to slow the opponent too. I was thinking of cards like Render Silent, Failure/Comply, Depose/Deploy. I have one copy of Narset, Parter of Veils and Brazen Borrower I could put in there too. Augur Of Bolas seem like a nice blocker too.

If Monastery Monk isnt good anymore for either Modern or Pionner, Im strongly considering selling my copies...

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On a sidenote, I wish Oathbreaker had being more popular where I live... I made a deck for it but it never rose up the ground. The only time they tried it, not evenou people went for the event. Im guilty of it but I had good reasons since I was very sick . :smallfrown:

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Originally Posted by Emmerlaus

Being slowly introduced to Pionner...

Sigh, I like the fact its slower then Modern but I cant find a deck that suit me.

At first I was thinking buying Monastery Mentor. Bought 3 copies when they were at 10$, now they are like 30$ each.

I had put my Modern deck project on the side as I was introduced and fall in love with COmmander format.

Now, I discovered that Pionner is the better verion of Modern. No costly fetch land is a awesome banning.

However, Monastery Mentor STILL isnt viable in Pionner I think?

I was thinking making a good Pionner deck but the only good Pionner deck I saw were all about COntrol, with cards I would have to buy a lot or that I dont like...

Pionner range of victory should be aimed to be around turn 5 or 6 right?

I was thinking making a spellslinger Monastery Mentor deck. I have two copies of Primal Amulet too for it, cards to slow the opponent too. I was thinking of cards like Render Silent, Failure/Comply, Depose/Deploy. I have one copy of Narset, Parter of Veils and Brazen Borrower I could put in there too. Augur Of Bolas seem like a nice blocker too.

If Monastery Monk isnt good anymore for either Modern or Pionner, Im strongly considering selling my copies...

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On a sidenote, I wish Oathbreaker had being more popular where I live... I made a deck for it but it never rose up the ground. The only time they tried it, not evenou people went for the event. Im guilty of it but I had good reasons since I was very sick . :smallfrown:

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Its hard for stores to support 'quirky' formats because that space costs rent money every day and setting it aside for an event with nobody showing is just lost money. So unless there is a strong following, Oathbreaker, Frontier, Tiny Leaders, etc. would have a hard time getting off the ground. Its also not in the best interest of a store to diversify the format offering too much by listening to vocal 'I wanna try this new thing' people, because they'll tire after a while and through regular attrition, a loss of 4 players that would've gotten your 22 people scene down to 18, now kills one of your 10-people scenes and leaves the other in life support.

LansXero: True, I understand your point. I gave up on Oathbreaker anyway. But now, Im hoping to join the Pioneer train and as my post stated, I would need some advices...

Mainly, is Monastery Mentor good in Pionner format? I was thinking only using white/blue but i can see how putting red in there could be useful for a spellslinger deck. :smallconfused:

Was thinking of putting maybe Hero of Precinct One and use multicolored spells like Azorius Charm , Depose/Deploy and Warrant // Warden, Dovin's Veto and Render Silent...

3x Monastery Mentor
3x Hero of the Precinct One
3x Smuggler Copter
3x Cultivator's Caravan
3x Reflector Mage
3x Deputy of Acquittals
3x Inquisitive Puppet

4x Azorius Charm
4x Depose // Deploy
4x Dovin's Veto
4x Render Silent
4x Warrant // Warden
4x Brave the Elements

2x Primal Amulet

And the rest I wouldnt know...

EDIT: I discovered the Infinite "Thopter combo" and I would be interested i joining this with a spellslinger strategy... Im not sure about making it infinite (and Panharmonicon cost a lot) but this has potential I think...

4x Whirler Virtuoso
4x Deconction Module
3x Monastery Mentor
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Impact Tremors
4x Depose/Deploy
4x Inquisitive Puppet

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Originally Posted by LansXero

Its hard for stores to support 'quirky' formats because that space costs rent money every day and setting it aside for an event with nobody showing is just lost money. So unless there is a strong following, Oathbreaker, Frontier, Tiny Leaders, etc. would have a hard time getting off the ground. Its also not in the best interest of a store to diversify the format offering too much by listening to vocal 'I wanna try this new thing' people, because they'll tire after a while and through regular attrition, a loss of 4 players that would've gotten your 22 people scene down to 18, now kills one of your 10-people scenes and leaves the other in life support.

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Oathbreaker also has the issue that decks are going to look very same-y after a while. While there are 189 different Oathbreaker-legal Planeswalkers, a lot of them are mono-color, and some colors have many more choices to pick from than others. Heck, make that "choices at all" - you can't go straight Sultai in Oathbreaker.

...

Fun fact: here are all of the Planeswalkers who have 10 or more cards representing them, including Sparkers (before we head back to Theros, that is):

14 - Chandra
12 - Ajani
11 - Jace
10 - Liliana

Gideon and Nissa each have 8. Sarkhan, Sorin, and Tezzeret have 7, Garruk and Vraska have 6. Nicol Bolas and Vivien have 5.

Most other Planeswalkers top out at 3-4 cards. But still - that's 106 cards. Accounting for the six Sparkers (Gatewatch + Bolas), that's 100 out of the 189 options for Oathbreaker taken up by 13 characters.

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Originally Posted by Emmerlaus

LansXero: True, I understand your point. I gave up on Oathbreaker anyway. But now, Im hoping to join the Pioneer train and as my post stated, I would need some advices...

Mainly, is Monastery Mentor good in Pionner format? I was thinking only using white/blue but i can see how putting red in there could be useful for a spellslinger deck. :smallconfused:

Was thinking of putting maybe Hero of Precinct One and use multicolored spells like Azorius Charm , Depose/Deploy and Warrant // Warden, Dovin's Veto and Render Silent...

EDIT: I discovered the Infinite "Thopter combo" and I would be interested i joining this with a spellslinger strategy... Im not sure about making it infinite (and Panharmonicon cost a lot) but this has potential I think...

4x Whirler Virtuoso
4x Deconction Module
3x Monastery Mentor
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Impact Tremors
4x Depose/Deploy
4x Inquisitive Puppet

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I think MM is good with free spells, which Pioneer is short on. Vintage is comboed with Mox, Legacy with Sensei's Top and Force of Will. Modern has too much removal and is too fast for it, Pioneer lacks support cards.

If Summer Veil hadn't eaten a ban I could see running Veil, Mentor, Blossoming Defense and defending it that way as the top of an aggressive deck but just defense isn't enough IMO.

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Fun fact: here are all of the Planeswalkers who have 10 or more cards representing them, including Sparkers (before we head back to Theros, that is):

14 - Chandra
12 - Ajani
11 - Jace
10 - Liliana

Gideon and Nissa each have 8. Sarkhan, Sorin, and Tezzeret have 7, Garruk and Vraska have 6. Nicol Bolas and Vivien have 5.

Most other Planeswalkers top out at 3-4 cards. But still - that's 106 cards. Accounting for the six Sparkers (Gatewatch + Bolas), that's 100 out of the 189 options for Oathbreaker taken up by 13 characters.

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So, Oath breaker will likely not be as samey as you think. Due to budget issues, 3 players in our play group ended up making a red/white Nahiri deck using the war of the spark Nahiri. Turns out each deck is wildly different, up too and including the signature spell. One is a go wide token strategy, one is a voltron equipment deck and one is a Tribal deck that takes advantage of her first stike ability.

On a related bit, I made a Chandra Super-friends Oath breaker deck. There's all 14 Chandras and one Jaya for flavor's sake. Turn's out no one else wants to do any Chandra decks, because I have made them kind of sick of them.

We do need more color combinations for Planeswalkers though.

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Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

I think MM is good with free spells, which Pioneer is short on. Vintage is comboed with Mox, Legacy with Sensei's Top and Force of Will. Modern has too much removal and is too fast for it, Pioneer lacks support cards.

If Summer Veil hadn't eaten a ban I could see running Veil, Mentor, Blossoming Defense and defending it that way as the top of an aggressive deck but just defense isn't enough IMO.

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Interesting... from what you told me, I have a few solutions.:smallamused:

Deputy of Acquittals can save my Monastery Mentor in a pinch. I put Two vehicles in there and Inquisitive Puppet to have a reliable way to trigger Monastery Mentor. And Brave the Elements would protect ALL my white creatures.

Would REALLY love some feedback on THIS list, Im quite proud of it! Its a Blue/White deck. My only problem now is the manabase... :smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

3x Monastery Mentor
3x Hero of the Precinct One
3x Smuggler Copter
2x Cultivator's Caravan
2x Reflector Mage
3x Deputy of Acquittals
4x Inquisitive Puppet

4x Azorius Charm
4x Depose // Deploy
4x Dovin's Veto
3x Render Silent
4x Warrant // Warden
4x Brave the Elements

2x Radiant Destiny

2x Primal Amulet


EDIT: I added Radiant Destiny in there to give them a little boost...

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Originally Posted by Emmerlaus

3x Monastery Mentor

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Any reason you aren't playing the full 4?

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3x Hero of the Precinct One

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This also seems like the kind of card that if it is good enough to play in the deck, it's good enough to play 4 of.

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3x Smuggler Copter

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Banned in Pioneer

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2x Cultivator's Caravan

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I'm wondering if the crew 3 is too hard for this deck.

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2x Reflector Mage

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I think you'll want to play more than 2 Reflector Mages.

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3x Deputy of Acquittals

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This seems good, though you have so many 4 drops.

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4x Inquisitive Puppet

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This card doesn't seem good enough.

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4x Azorius Charm

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This is too defensive for what your deck wants to do.

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4x Depose // Deploy

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I think this card works for this sort of deck, but I don't think you want a full playset.

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4x Dovin's Veto

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This seems more like a sideboard card.

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3x Render Silent

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It's a counterspell that triggers the hero, but it's less impressive that other options. Hero becomes less impressive when you have to play worse cards in order to trigger it.

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4x Warrant // Warden

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It might be the the best way to get this kind of effect for this deck, but I'm not impressed by the card. I don't think you want to play 4.

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4x Brave the Elements

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Definitely play this. I hadn't even thought of that.

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2x Radiant Destiny

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Sadly doesn't pump the monks.

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2x Primal Amulet

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Too many of your spells aren't affected by this, that makes the card very poor.

This was a quick bad idea I had for a Monastery Mentor deck:

4x Atarka's Command
4x Blossoming Defense
4x Boros Charm
4x Deeproot Champion
4x Gods Willing
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Seeker of the Way
4x Soul-Scar Mage
4x Wild Slash


You might also be able to do a token deck. Something like this:

3x Conclave Tribunal
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3x History of Benalia
3x Kykar, Wind's Fury
4x Legion's Landing
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Opt
4x Raise the Alarm
3x Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
2x Secure the Wastes
4x Young Pyromancer

But it's very possible both of those are just going to be straight up better without the mentor.

Monastery Mentor pump for any noncreature spell. So enchantement and non-artifact creatures STILL pump the monk.

On that regard, Maybe Legion Landing is better as it still pump the monk and give me early drop creature.

Dovin's Veto is actually very good because I have lots of cards to get rid of creatures and put them on top of opponent deck. The goal it to make them unable to get answers.

However, you had very good advices. I'll remove the spellslinger part. Reflector Mage truly deserve to have 4 of them.

Also, the combo of Reflector Mage - Deputy of Acquittals and Hero of Precinct One is too good to pass up.

The main reason that I only put 3 copy of the monk in the deck is because I only own 3 and that 4 would be too much for what the deck wanna do.



3x Monastery Mentor
4x Hero of Precinct One
4x Reflector Mage
4x Deputy of Acquittals

3x Legion's Landing

4x Depose // Deploy
3x Dovin's Veto
2x Render Silent
4x Warrant // Warden
3x Brave the Elements

2x Radiant Destiny

EDIT: I had to remove some cards because I want 24 lands. Romoved Azorius Charm entirely.

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Originally Posted by Emmerlaus

Monastery Mentor pump for any noncreature spell. So enchantement and non-artifact creatures STILL pump the monk.

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Playing Radiant Destiny pumps the monks, but it doesn't pump when it's on field unless you name monk.

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On that regard, Maybe Legion Landing is better as it still pump the monk and give me early drop creature.

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I think it's good with Mentor but I'm not sure if the rest of your deck can flip it well enough.

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Also, the combo of Reflector Mage - Deputy of Acquittals and Hero of Precinct One is too good to pass up.

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What is the combo?

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The main reason that I only put 3 copy of the monk in the deck is because I only own 3 and that 4 would be too much for what the deck wanna do.

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He's gonna be the best card in the deck, and he's the kind of card where you want to go "answer this or die". You definitely want 4 of him. He is better than all your other cards.

Hero of Precinct One is only really worth running in a list if your nonland cards are almost all multicoloured (except Hero). If you want to play Hero + Mentor, I'd say you probably should have every other nonland card in your deck be a multicoloured noncreature spell.

Ninjaman: Good point... I was planning on choosing humans for the boost but I just realized the tokens Monastery Mentor create arent human, only monks. I think I'll change it for Stoneforge Masterwork.

Stoneforge Masterwork will get boost for each monks and each other humans I control. Since all my creatures spells are human, and that Monastery Mentor is a human AND a Monk, it will boost itself quickly.

The combo I was speaking about is not super awesome but its good anyway. Deputy of Acquittals can return Reflector mage into my hand on the opponent turn, so I can use its ability one more time. Also, if Hero of the Precent One is in play, both of those cards count as multicolored so it will give me tokens as I play them.

Im not sure Monastery Monk is the best card to be honest. Its sneakily the Hero of Precinct One. If you look at all my instants and creatures, almost all of them are multicolored.

3x Monastery Mentor
4x Hero of Precinct One
4x Reflector Mage
4x Deputy of Acquittals

3x Legion's Landing

4x Depose // Deploy
3x Dovin's Veto
2x Render Silent
4x Warrant // Warden
3x Brave the Elements

2x Stoneforge Masterwork

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Originally Posted by Ornithologist

So, Oath breaker will likely not be as samey as you think. Due to budget issues, 3 players in our play group ended up making a red/white Nahiri deck using the war of the spark Nahiri. Turns out each deck is wildly different, up too and including the signature spell. One is a go wide token strategy, one is a voltron equipment deck and one is a Tribal deck that takes advantage of her first stike ability.

On a related bit, I made a Chandra Super-friends Oath breaker deck. There's all 14 Chandras and one Jaya for flavor's sake. Turn's out no one else wants to do any Chandra decks, because I have made them kind of sick of them.

We do need more color combinations for Planeswalkers though.

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That's good to hear. At that point, I was just kinda curious about how the cards were distributed. But seriously - someone must really love Bisexual Fire Wizard¹ and Mighty Cat Man. I would have thought that Jace or Liliana would be second.

As for colors...

We have:

26 in mono-Red, 21 in mono-White and mono-Blue, 20 in mono-Green, and 17 in mono-Black. In the color pairs, we have Gruul leading with 10, Azorius and Izzet with 9 each, Orzhov, Golgari, and Simic with 7, Dimir and Selesnya with 6, and Rakdos and Boros with 5 each.

In color triples, Grixis has 4, Bant has 2, and Esper, Jund, and Temur have 1 each. There are no options for Abzan, Jeskai, Mardu, Naya, or Sultai.

Oh, and colorless has 5.

Sarkhan has the largest number of distinct color identities on his cards - he has been R, BR, RG, and URG. Ajani (W, RW, and GW) and Tamiyo (U, GU, and GWU) both have 3. All of the other Planeswalkers? Two at most.

I'd go through and look at how many distinct archetypes each color has, but that'd take a bit more effort than just counting.

¹ Spoilers: It is me. I legitimately had a crush on her when I was 14.

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Originally Posted by Emmerlaus

Ninjaman: Good point... I was planning on choosing humans for the boost but I just realized the tokens Monastery Mentor create arent human, only monks. I think I'll change it for Stoneforge Masterwork.

Stoneforge Masterwork will get boost for each monks and each other humans I control. Since all my creatures spells are human, and that Monastery Mentor is a human AND a Monk, it will boost itself quickly.

The combo I was speaking about is not super awesome but its good anyway. Deputy of Acquittals can return Reflector mage into my hand on the opponent turn, so I can use its ability one more time. Also, if Hero of the Precent One is in play, both of those cards count as multicolored so it will give me tokens as I play them.

Im not sure Monastery Monk is the best card to be honest. Its sneakily the Hero of Precinct One. If you look at all my instants and creatures, almost all of them are multicolored.

3x Monastery Mentor
4x Hero of Precinct One
4x Reflector Mage
4x Deputy of Acquittals

3x Legion's Landing

4x Depose // Deploy
3x Dovin's Veto
2x Render Silent
4x Warrant // Warden
3x Brave the Elements

2x Stoneforge Masterwork

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Remember that the Monks you make with Monastery Mentor have Prowess. If you gave me an option between "I get a 1/1 token because I cast Render Silent" and "I get a 1/1 token and +1/+1 to all of my other creatures because I cast Render Silent"... I'd go with the latter.

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Originally Posted by Emmerlaus

Ninjaman: Good point... I was planning on choosing humans for the boost but I just realized the tokens Monastery Mentor create arent human, only monks. I think I'll change it for Stoneforge Masterwork.

Stoneforge Masterwork will get boost for each monks and each other humans I control. Since all my creatures spells are human, and that Monastery Mentor is a human AND a Monk, it will boost itself quickly.

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Don't do that. It will suck hard without the mentor, and the mentor shouldn't need it. Don't work on improving your best case, work on improving your worst case.

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The combo I was speaking about is not super awesome but its good anyway. Deputy of Acquittals can return Reflector mage into my hand on the opponent turn, so I can use its ability one more time. Also, if Hero of the Precent One is in play, both of those cards count as multicolored so it will give me tokens as I play them.

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Oh, sorry, I read the name and assumed Deputy of Detention.
You shouldn't be playing Deputy of Acquittals to begin with, it's just not that good a card and it doesn't really synergize with your deck.

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Im not sure Monastery Monk is the best card to be honest. Its sneakily the Hero of Precinct One. If you look at all my instants and creatures, almost all of them are multicolored.

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Hero just makes a bunch of 1/1s, Mentor can easily let you swing for 10+ damage quite shortly after playing it.

I want to thanks everyone for their advices...

After much discussion, I realize my previous idea was wrong as Pionner isnt only 1 vs 1. Putting creatures on top of opponent deck would be effective (if not frustrating) strategy on 1 vs 1 setting only.

INSTEAD... I believe I made the deck more fun by making it a Adventure themed Monastery Monk deck!

Creature (17)
2x Ardenvale Tactician
1x Brazen Borrower
4x Faerie Guidemother
4x Giant Killer
4x Monastery Mentor
2x Silverflame Squire

Artifact (4)

2x Lucky Clover
2x Primal Amulet

Instant (15)

4x Brave the Elements
4x Depose / Deploy
3x Dovin's Veto
4x Opt

Land (24)
4x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
7x Island
8x Plains
4x Prairie Stream

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emmerlaus

I want to thanks everyone for their advices...

After much discussion, I realize my previous idea was wrong as Pionner isnt only 1 vs 1. Putting creatures on top of opponent deck would be effective (if not frustrating) strategy on 1 vs 1 setting only.

INSTEAD... I believe I made the deck more fun by making it a Adventure themed Monastery Monk deck!

Creature (17)
2x Ardenvale Tactician
1x Brazen Borrower
4x Faerie Guidemother
4x Giant Killer
4x Monastery Mentor
2x Silverflame Squire

Artifact (4)

2x Lucky Clover
2x Primal Amulet

Instant (15)

4x Brave the Elements
4x Depose / Deploy
3x Dovin's Veto
4x Opt

Land (24)
4x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
7x Island
8x Plains
4x Prairie Stream

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...Pioneer is only a 1v1 format.