Can You Grapple an Ally? Can Allies take Opportunity Attacks When Moved?

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Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai

That, I think, is focusing on the wrong part. Making it an item interaction is saying that the hero adventurer can scoop up their ally without exerting too much effort to do other things, but also doesn't allow them to do other quick thinks (as making it a non-action would). Focusing on the creature being "dead" or "we are in combat therefore Grapple" is prioritizing staying within the bounds of what is exactly written in the books.

But as I asked previously, if your ally isn't incapacitated, now the grapple isn't an auto-success and your ally has to resist your efforts with a contested check. And that's also RAW. And it's also really silly.

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Yeah, I probably was focusing on the wrong thing there. Personally, I'd say scooping up your ally should be more than an Object Interaction, but that's just me. Hence the use of Grapple rules to handle it, cause I'd make saving an ally a full action anyway, regardless of how the player described it.

As for people not being incapacitated, meh, weird rules are weird. I personally stick closer to RAW than most probably do, and even I agree there should be an option to auto-fail an opposed Ability Check. For example, I was recently DMing and ran into a pretty strange RAW rule interaction. I put a player to sleep via Eyebite, so they were Unconscious. I then tried to move the player via Telekinesis from a separate NPC. By RAW, the player can roll their opposed Strength Check because Unconscious doesn't effect Ability Checks, and you only auto-fail Grapple Checks when you're Incapacitated. And Telekinesis is not a Grapple.

I ran it RAW, mostly because I prefer to implement rule changes after a session instead of during the session. So the player was able to resist the Telekinesis. But going forward they know that Incapacitated creatures will simply fail opposed Strength and Dexterity checks

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Originally Posted by sithlordnergal

Yeah, I probably was focusing on the wrong thing there. Personally, I'd say scooping up your ally should be more than an Object Interaction, but that's just me. Hence the use of Grapple rules to handle it, cause I'd make saving an ally a full action anyway, regardless of how the player described it.

As for people not being incapacitated, meh, weird rules are weird. I personally stick closer to RAW than most probably do, and even I agree there should be an option to auto-fail an opposed Ability Check. For example, I was recently DMing and ran into a pretty strange RAW rule interaction. I put a player to sleep via Eyebite, so they were Unconscious. I then tried to move the player via Telekinesis from a separate NPC. By RAW, the player can roll their opposed Strength Check because Unconscious doesn't effect Ability Checks, and you only auto-fail Grapple Checks when you're Incapacitated. And Telekinesis is not a Grapple.

I ran it RAW, mostly because I prefer to implement rule changes after a session instead of during the session. So the player was able to resist the Telekinesis. But going forward they know that Incapacitated creatures will simply fail opposed Strength and Dexterity checks

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Reminds me of when Rock Lee is fighting basically unconscious due to muscle memory :smallcool:

"Suppose the ally isn't unconscious, but you're much faster, even at half speed, and want to carry them away. You're saying the best way to handle this is for both players to make contested ability checks to see if the ally succeeds in grabbing the other one?"

There are only contested ability checks if the creature being grappled/shoved decides to resist - if they want to contest the attempt.

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

Here's a two-part question:

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Let's say an ally is unconscious. You want to move them out of harm's way. Can you grapple them to move them? Or must you use the lifting and carrying rules instead?

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Both apply. If you can’t drag the weight of the creature you’re grappling, you can’t move them.

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

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When an ally is being moved, whether by being grappled or being carried, are they vulnerable to opportunity attacks?

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Forced movement doesn’t provoke OAs. You actually have to use your movement to provoke.

Otherwise, Shoves and Repelling Blast would provoke OAs.

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Originally Posted by da newt

"Suppose the ally isn't unconscious, but you're much faster, even at half speed, and want to carry them away. You're saying the best way to handle this is for both players to make contested ability checks to see if the ally succeeds in grabbing the other one?"

There are only contested ability checks if the creature being grappled/shoved decides to resist - if they want to contest the attempt.

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1. Where does it say you can choose not to resist a grapple?

2. Then what was the point of the ally being unconscious in the first place?

If anyone can carry an ally and the ally can simply agree, why insist on using the "Grapple" rules to do so? After all, the grapple rules assume you are grabbing an enemy. Maybe the reason you move at half speed is because the enemy is resisting you the entire time. If you're carrying someone piggyback, or in a fireman's carry, and they are willing, maybe you don't move at half speed.

This might be why grapple is being modified to be a saving throw in 2024, coupled with the new "you can voluntarily fail any save" rule, so that grappling allies can be a reliable tactic across different tables.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

This might be why grapple is being modified to be a saving throw in 2024, coupled with the new "you can voluntarily fail any save" rule, so that grappling allies can be a reliable tactic across different tables.

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I think it's more that currently Grappling is a mega boss move for martials that monsters are barely equipped to deal with, and so it had to be nerfed to keep martials in their place.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai

I think it's more that currently Grappling is a mega boss move for martials that monsters are barely equipped to deal with, and so it had to be nerfed to keep martials in their place.

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If a boss monster wants to burn a legendary save on my Fighter's grapple attempt, of which they can get 2-4 attempts in a single round before buffs, I consider that a clear win for the martials and the party as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai

If anyone can carry an ally and the ally can simply agree, why insist on using the "Grapple" rules to do so? After all, the grapple rules assume you are grabbing an enemy. Maybe the reason you move at half speed is because the enemy is resisting you the entire time. If you're carrying someone piggyback, or in a fireman's carry, and they are willing, maybe you don't move at half speed.

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Keep in mind these delve into using the ally as a mount rather than counting as the other person “grappling”, which has size requirements, as well as potential encumbrance issues.

Thanks for your input, everyone. :smallsmile:

It seems like there's a strong consensus on the second half of the question. Being moved shouldn't trigger opportunity attacks. As always, a DM may rule otherwise for reasons of verisimilitude.

There's more disagreement about grappling an ally, which is useful to know and surprises me a little. Bar one, I think all the DMs I've played with have ruled that ally-grappling is permissible. My surprise must come from my unusually consistent playing experience.

Any remaining ambiguity on ally-grappling should be definitively resolved in a few months' time.

But the other part you didn't touch on was the dragging/encumbrance aspect, which is likely going to still have substantial table variation (as it should, since encumbrance itself has substantial table variation.)

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Any remaining ambiguity on ally-grappling should be definitively resolved in a few months' time.

But the other part you didn't touch on was the dragging/encumbrance aspect, which is likely going to still have substantial table variation (as it should, since encumbrance itself has substantial table variation.)

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About one of the only good design point PF2 adopted was using bulk. Fast and easy to use and you don't need a to compare a bunch of large values to get it to work. You can even completely ditch size categories with it to avoid a lot of weird interactions.

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Originally Posted by stoutstien

About one of the only good design point PF2 adopted was using bulk. Fast and easy to use and you don't need a to compare a bunch of large values to get it to work. You can even completely ditch size categories with it to avoid a lot of weird interactions.

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I like Bulk too. They invented it for Starfinder to simplify calculating encumbrance in different-gravity environments (including zero-G) and it's just a nice system in general.

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

Here's a two-part question:

1.
Let's say an ally is unconscious. You want to move them out of harm's way. Can you grapple them to move them? Or must you use the lifting and carrying rules instead?

2.
When an ally is being moved, whether by being grappled or being carried, are they vulnerable to opportunity attacks?

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At my table we ruled you can grab and drag an ally at half speed, if theyre willing you dont even need to roll but it does use your interaction.

We rule it as 'forced movement' for the creature being dragged so it doesnt provoke.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Any remaining ambiguity on ally-grappling should be definitively resolved in a few months' time.

But the other part you didn't touch on was the dragging/encumbrance aspect, which is likely going to still have substantial table variation (as it should, since encumbrance itself has substantial table variation.)

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Oh, are you referring to D&D 5.5e? Or something else?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. I think I mentioned it, so "touch" must be a metaphor for something else.

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Originally Posted by Kane0

At my table we ruled you can grab and drag an ally at half speed, if theyre willing you dont even need to roll but it does use your interaction.

We rule it as 'forced movement' for the creature being dragged so it doesnt provoke.

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Yeah, we had a similar rule in my old campaign. If you were a size smaller, you could even be carried without any reduction to speed. Which led to some cute in-game moments.

Understood. Thanks for the info. :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

Oh, are you referring to D&D 5.5e? Or something else?

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Yes - because grappling is going from being an opposed check to being a saving throw, which allies will be able to automatically fail (new general rule), and therefore they can always choose to let themselves be grappled. And if they're unconscious, paralyzed or stunned, they'll autofail those saves anyway.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Yes - because grappling is going from being an opposed check to being a saving throw, which allies will be able to automatically fail (new general rule), and therefore they can always choose to let themselves be grappled. And if they're unconscious, paralyzed or stunned, they'll autofail those saves anyway.

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Oh, neat! Yeah, it does look that way to me. The auto-fail rule surprises me.

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

Oh, neat! Yeah, it does look that way to me. The auto-fail rule surprises me.

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Autofailing those saves exists today - see the relevant conditions. As mentioned, Paralyze/Stunned/Unconscious all include that clause of autofailing Str and Dex saves. All WotC are doing is putting grapples under that column.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Autofailing those saves exists today - see the relevant conditions. As mentioned, Paralyze/Stunned/Unconscious all include that clause of autofailing Str and Dex saves. All WotC are doing is putting grapples under that column.

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Right. Sorry, I meant failing a save deliberately. You can't do that right now—you always roll to see if you save.

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

Right. Sorry, I meant failing a save deliberately. You can't do that right now—you always roll to see if you save.

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Oh when you said "autofail rule" I thought you meant the automatic failure due to {condition} one.

Yeah, they printed this sidebar in UA7:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...d5a646d38d5a2&

It was printed immediately after the "Branches of the Tree" teleport-other ability in the new World Tree Barbarian, implying that they wanted people using that ability on both allies and enemies.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Oh when you said "autofail rule" I thought you meant the automatic failure due to {condition} one.

Yeah, they printed this sidebar in UA7:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...d5a646d38d5a2&

It was printed immediately after the "Branches of the Tree" teleport-other ability in the new World Tree Barbarian, implying that they wanted people using that ability on both allies and enemies.

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Neat! :smallsmile: