May UA's Up: Ever Wanted To Be Part Horse?

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Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Also the relative uselessness of horns--though I think they are wrong about that despite the low damage. Grapplers always appreciate natural attacks, and a reaction shove is interesting for melee kiting and tanking both. Also useful for breaking free of being grappled, since Shove is the standard countermeasure for breaking a grapple if you have extra attacks.

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The basic 'having a natural 1d6+str' attack is good. Straight-up good in an obvious way much like it is for lizardfolk (and yes, is great in a grapple). The bonus action and reaction action uses, however, are pretty niche. Yes, every fighter who has ever been 35' from their opposition had bemoaned that they have to take their move and a dash action to get to their opponents, and being able to dish out d6+str that round is better than nothing. But that's it, better than nothing. The shove... well you bring up a good point about grapple-breaking. If I was convinced that was the intended result I might consider it better. The bigger problem, from my perspective, is that the most comparable race IMO is half-orc (same stat bonuses and intimidation skill, same social role as 'uncivilized traditional villain race who just as often subverts that'), and their bonus abilities are useful for any build (1/LR ignore dropping to 0 hp), and useful for any combat build (increased crit). Compare that to these rather... 'hard to consistently make use of' is the way I'd put it.

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Minotaurs in this UA are better than Goliaths and Dragonborns at least.

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Okay. And to normal orcs, and some other routinely declared suboptimal races. Fair point.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre

As I understand it, the labyrinth was ceremonial rather than functional. There have been several cultures with "mazes" that have no dead ends, no wrong turns, just a complex spiral in to the center. For symbolic/religious reasons.

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I saw a documentary that said they found an ancient palace on the appropriate island that was so massive it was, in effect a labyrinth, with evidence of cannibalism. In all likelihood the myth was a story that explained the existence of what later people found.

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Originally Posted by Willie the Duck

The bonus action and reaction action uses, however, are pretty niche. Yes, every fighter who has ever been 35' from their opposition had bemoaned that they have to take their move and a dash action to get to their opponents, and being able to dish out d6+str that round is better than nothing. But that's it, better than nothing. The shove... well you bring up a good point about grapple-breaking. If I was convinced that was the intended result I might consider it better. The bigger problem, from my perspective, is that the most comparable race IMO is half-orc (same stat bonuses and intimidation skill, same social role as 'uncivilized traditional villain race who just as often subverts that'), and their bonus abilities are useful for any build (1/LR ignore dropping to 0 hp), and useful for any combat build (increased crit). Compare that to these rather... 'hard to consistently make use of' is the way I'd put it.

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The reaction shove can also be used to get allies out of trouble (shove enemy out of attack range so squishy ally can run away without taking opportunity attack) and as a form of pseudo-Mobile feat to avoid OAs yourself. It's definitely competitive with half-orc, whose stand-out ability is useless unless you're both overmatched (enemy is able to hammer you down to zero HP) but not too overmatched (else enemy will insta-kill you and you get no benefit) and is basically only as strong as a first-level Healing Word spell. I'll take an at-will reaction shove instead, please, with a side order of better grapple + shield + attack and a free charge option.

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Originally Posted by MaxWilson

I'll take an at-will reaction shove instead, please, with a side order of better grapple + shield + attack and a free charge option.

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Walk me through that, if you will. What build and combat situation would you put that on, and how would it go?

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Originally Posted by Willie the Duck

Walk me through that, if you will. What build and combat situation would you put that on, and how would it go?

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I'm on mobile so briefly:

Melee fighters are never really strong per se in 5e, so this is more of a casual fun character than a highly professional monster killer, but something like: Marcus Daedalus Carnifex, retired minotaur centurion. Samurai, GWM + Healer feats, Defense style. Sometimes greatsword, sometimes warhammer + shield. Longbow for backup. Proficient in Stealth, Perception, Athletics, Intimidation, Animal Handling. Stats around S 17 D 12 C 14 I 10 W 9 C 11. Bit of a temper problem, which is why he never made it to high rank and in fact took early retirement. Temper shows only in high-pressure situations though. (Crease/Sneakers model.) In adventuring mostly for the excitement and the easy cash (when you survive).

Basically acts as party tank. Gets in the way of monsters, shoves them away from squishies, hits things with greatsword and/or grabs them and slams them on their back and gores them.

Pretty straightforward really, which is really the whole point of the character.

Does that answer your question or do you need more detail on what a fight looks like with a whole party plus this guy?

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Originally Posted by Sigreid

I saw a documentary that said they found an ancient palace on the appropriate island that was so massive it was, in effect a labyrinth, with evidence of cannibalism. In all likelihood the myth was a story that explained the existence of what later people found.

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I'm quite curious to learn more. Closest I can find is:

"In the 2000s, archaeologists explored other potential sites of the labyrinth.[24] Oxford University geographer Nicholas Howarth believes that 'Evans's hypothesis that the palace of Knossos is also the Labyrinth must be treated sceptically.'[24] Howarth and his team conducted a search of an underground complex known as the Skotino cave but concluded that it was formed naturally. Another contender is a series of underground tunnels at Gortyn, accessed by a narrow crack but expanding into interlinking caverns. Unlike the Skotino cave, these caverns have smooth walls and columns, and appear to have been at least partially man-made. This site corresponds to an unusual labyrinth symbol on a 16th-century map of Crete contained in a book of maps in the library of Christ Church, Oxford. A map of the caves themselves was produced by the French in 1821. The site was also used by German soldiers to store ammunition during the Second World War. Howarth's investigation was shown on a documentary[25] produced for the National Geographic Channel." - from the wikipedia entry on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth, but no mention of cannibalism..*





*Sam: Curious... What could account for such a bizarre fluctuation in the populace? War? Famine? Rampant cannibalism?
Max (getting excited): Cannibalism! I vote cannibalism!

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Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Pretty straightforward really, which is really the whole point of the character.

Does that answer your question or do you need more detail on what a fight looks like with a whole party plus this guy?

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If you have the time. I wasn't looking for what personality you would play this guy as, I was looking for the set up where you would actually be able to routinely use these bonus and reaction based abilities (or main attack unarmeds, although that's pretty obvious-'when grappling or disarmed'). Broad strokes would be fine (so like 'in a party with squishy spellcasters and the DM routinely has the monster swarm over the front line, the minotaur would be able to...').

The fundamental disconnect is that I don't see these abilities being usable particularly often, and apparently you do.

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Originally Posted by Finback

I'm quite curious to learn more. Closest I can find is:

"In the 2000s, archaeologists explored other potential sites of the labyrinth.[24] Oxford University geographer Nicholas Howarth believes that 'Evans's hypothesis that the palace of Knossos is also the Labyrinth must be treated sceptically.'[24] Howarth and his team conducted a search of an underground complex known as the Skotino cave but concluded that it was formed naturally. Another contender is a series of underground tunnels at Gortyn, accessed by a narrow crack but expanding into interlinking caverns. Unlike the Skotino cave, these caverns have smooth walls and columns, and appear to have been at least partially man-made. This site corresponds to an unusual labyrinth symbol on a 16th-century map of Crete contained in a book of maps in the library of Christ Church, Oxford. A map of the caves themselves was produced by the French in 1821. The site was also used by German soldiers to store ammunition during the Second World War. Howarth's investigation was shown on a documentary[25] produced for the National Geographic Channel." - from the wikipedia entry on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth, but no mention of cannibalism..*





*Sam: Curious... What could account for such a bizarre fluctuation in the populace? War? Famine? Rampant cannibalism?
Max (getting excited): Cannibalism! I vote cannibalism!

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I'd direct you to the documentary if I could. It was a few years ago and I've pretty much already said what stuck.

Anyone else notice that these centaur rules make decent rules for Planescape Bariaurs as well, for those trying for 5e planescape? Maybe with a "goatlike build" racial ability instead of an "equine build" (goats are great climbers, incidentally, so maybe just take away both the positives and negatives of equine build?), and with horns instead of hooves (merely a flavor change)? With this and the gith races in MToF, Aasimar in Volo's, and Tieflings in the PHB, that would just leave the rogue modrons.

More modrons, WoTC! More modrons!

The survey for feedback is up now, so go give your feedback on the centaurs and minotaurs!

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unea...-and-minotaurs

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Originally Posted by Boverk

The survey for feedback is up now, so go give your feedback on the centaurs and minotaurs!

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unea...-and-minotaurs

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Thanks. I basically told them centaurs should be large with a trait they are treated as medium for weapons and reach.

Indeed. I had a similar thought for them. I also suggested they give some actual numbers to the size, or possibly referencing specific med-size equines (some of which are in the damn books) if they insist on the medium size.

(I've seen examples of smaller mount-worthy horses, enough so to satisfy me on the range of sizes... but they REALLY need to make it clear that there are different types of centaur for that)

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Originally Posted by Willie the Duck

If you have the time. I wasn't looking for what personality you would play this guy as, I was looking for the set up where you would actually be able to routinely use these bonus and reaction based abilities (or main attack unarmeds, although that's pretty obvious-'when grappling or disarmed'). Broad strokes would be fine (so like 'in a party with squishy spellcasters and the DM routinely has the monster swarm over the front line, the minotaur would be able to...').

The fundamental disconnect is that I don't see these abilities being usable particularly often, and apparently you do.

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In a party with a front line/back line distinction (so e.g. pure class wizards and lore bards, with AC in the 11-15 range, or else wide level disparities like levels 3 and 11 in the same party), when a monster threatens the back line, move to the back line and shove the monster away from the squishy.

If a new player or less-skilled player of a squishy miscounts distance and gets too close to a monster that's going to eat him (gelatinous cube comes to mind), shove it away.

Gratuitously shove monsters around just to inflate your image in their minds (by doing more offensive stuff) and attract attention away from the squishies. It does cost you your reaction attack threat so don't do this too much when squishies are within 30' already.

If playing with more experienced players with a better sense of distance, against a relatively small number of strong monsters (e.g. Frost giants), after doing your initial charge + shove to attract attention when contact is first made, buy tempo on second and perhaps subsequent rounds by shoving enemies away after you attack and then falling back 30' toward the squishies, so the enemy misses a round of attacks. Requires other front liners to be aware and using compatible tactics, e.g. a Sentinel fighter using Dodge + opportunity attack as his attack mode.

If you fight swarms of creatures (a dozen stirges and two Flameskulls) don't use this tactic, use AoEs instead. And obviously it won't work against ranged or fast foes like centaurs and hobgoblins, which is why melee is weak in 5e. But against typical MM melee meat sack monster distributions it will work about as well as other melee strategies, and you have three modes to use (kiting, protecting by shoving, and grappling/proning/goring) each of which is probably useful in at least 25% of all melee fights, so overall you get a lot more usage than you would out of half-orc features.

Oh, I just want to add something else that I noticed - I don't think Centaurs should have a walking speed of 40ft. From a standing start, horses are actually slower than humans. it seems like they should have 25-30ft movement speed, and instead get increased speed when they take the Dash action (or when they Run/Charge).

Nowhere near as deal-breaking as the size problem, just something that bugs me.

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Originally Posted by Boverk

The survey for feedback is up now, so go give your feedback on the centaurs and minotaurs!

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unea...-and-minotaurs

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Thanks for the heads up! I gave my suggestion for multiple Centaur subraces if we need both Medium and Large size Centaurs. Whatever needs to happen to keep from losing Medium size.

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Originally Posted by Sigreid

I'd direct you to the documentary if I could. It was a few years ago and I've pretty much already said what stuck.

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All good. I'm wondering if it was the NatGeo one. I'm moreso curious because of the idea that this would explain the myth - sometimes, this is actually backwards. Case in point: the Jersey Devil. There never WAS a Jersey Devil, but people now keep trying to explain the legend by pointing to real world things, but this presumes there ever was a real event to trigger it. They may be trying to explain the myth with a real example, but are fitting the narrative of the site to the myth, when there may not have been any basis in reality for the myth.

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Originally Posted by Finback

All good. I'm wondering if it was the NatGeo one. I'm moreso curious because of the idea that this would explain the myth - sometimes, this is actually backwards. Case in point: the Jersey Devil. There never WAS a Jersey Devil, but people now keep trying to explain the legend by pointing to real world things, but this presumes there ever was a real event to trigger it. They may be trying to explain the myth with a real example, but are fitting the narrative of the site to the myth, when there may not have been any basis in reality for the myth.

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Yeah, that's always true. According to my mythology class in college a myth may be true or false, but no one knows the origin of the story and a people believe or act as though they believe it even though it's not proven.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché

Oh, I just want to add something else that I noticed - I don't think Centaurs should have a walking speed of 40ft. From a standing start, horses are actually slower than humans. it seems like they should have 25-30ft movement speed, and instead get increased speed when they take the Dash action (or when they Run/Charge).
Nowhere near as deal-breaking as the size problem, just something that bugs me.

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I think when it comes to TTRPGs (at least those without complex vehicle rules like 3e GURPS and Hero System) treating speed like a on-off quality and not realistically modeling acceleration and the like, well the uh, horse has already left the barn, as it were.
sorry, dad joke thread got my motor running.

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Originally Posted by Willie the Duck

I think when it comes to TTRPGs (at least those without complex vehicle rules like 3e GURPS and Hero System) treating speed like a on-off quality and not realistically modeling acceleration and the like, well the uh, horse has already left the barn, as it were.

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Well, yes, but it's not too hard to add that detail back in if you want: certain creatures (e.g. horses, cheetahs, wolves, and anything with flying) could e.g. get double movement on their second turn of Dashing in a straight line.

I hope I answered your question about minotaur tactics in sufficient detail to satisfy your curiosity. I honestly don't see what is obscure about them--if it's still unclear it might help for your to describe a melee situation where you think a reaction shove WOULDN'T ever be useful, and how often those types of situations come up in your campaign. (Remember that the bar we're trying to clear is merely "competitive with half-orc and better than dragonborn" so the minotaur package doesn't have to be all THAT useful. It's not like we're trying to compete with variant human.)

Since nobody asked for it, here's my revision of the Minotaur (reworked, taken from Waterborne Adventures)

Minotaur
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 2, and your Constitution score increases by 1.
Age. Minotaurs enter adulthood at around the age of 17 and can live up to 150 years.
Alignment. Minotaurs believe in a strict code of honor, and thus tend toward law. They are loyal to the death and make implacable enemies, even as their brutal culture and disdain for weakness push them toward evil.
Size. Minotaurs average over 6 feet in height, and they have strong, stocky builds. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Horns. Your horns are natural melee weapons, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with them, you deal piercing damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike.*
Goring Rush. Immediately after you use the Dash action on your turn and move at least 10 feet in a straight line, you can make one melee attack with your horns as a bonus action.
Hammering Horns. Immediately after you make a melee attack against a creature as part of the Attack action on your turn†, you can attempt to shove that creature with your horns using your reaction. The creature must be within 5 feet of you. You cannot use this shove attempt to knock a creature prone.
Labyrinthine Recall. You can perfectly recall any path you have traveled.
Hybrid Nature. You have two creature types: humanoid and monstrosity. You can be affected by a game effect if it works on either of your creature types.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and Giant.
Conqueror’s Virtue. From a young age, you focused on one of the three virtues of cunning, intellect, or strength.

Cunning
Ability Score Increase. Your Wisdom score increases by 1.
Keen Senses. You have proficiency in the Perception skill.

Intellect
Ability Score Increase. Your Intelligence score increases by 1.
Tool Proficiency. You gain proficiency with cartographer's tools, mason's tools, or navigator's tools.

Strength
Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution score increases by 1.
Powerful Build. You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.

*This is functionally identical, but uses the same wording as the Lizardfolk.
†Firstly, requiring a hit as opposed to just an attack feels cumbersome. Secondly, by removing the action restriction this creates synergy with Goring Rush. At low levels this is similar to the Aggressive trait of the Orc (i.e. pretty powerful), but after getting Extra Attack it actually becomes worse because you can only make one attack.

Late to the party, but... medium-sized centaur? That's not half-man, half-horse, it's half-man, half-ass. Half-ass-man?

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Originally Posted by thoroughlyS

Hammering Horns. Immediately after you make a melee attack against a creature as part of the Attack action on your turn†, you can attempt to shove that creature with your horns using your reaction. The creature must be within 5 feet of you. You cannot use this shove attempt to knock a creature prone.

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You may want to consider using "melee weapon attack" as opposed to simply "melee attack" due to certain melee spell attacks. As far as I can tell, the current wording would allow a Minotaur with Booming Blade to both cast the spell and shove the enemy away from them*, whereupon the enemy has no choice but to stand still or trigger the spell, granting quite a bit of crowd-control for the cost of a cantrip and a reaction. I don't really know if that would be too powerful or not, but it could be something to consider.

*I know that the shove itself wouldn't trigger Booming Blade, since the creature has to "willingly" move. But by shoving an enemy away, only an enemy with more than a 5' reach or with a ranged option would be able to retaliate without triggering the spell

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Originally Posted by JackPhoenix

Late to the party, but... medium-sized centaur? That's not half-man, half-horse, it's half-man, half-ass. Half-ass-man?

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Ever watch Fantasia? Take a look at both the Centaurs and the Centaurettes. And how they compare to the Cupids. And the Satyr kids. And the Unicorn and Pegasus foals (and how they, in turn, compare to the adult Pegasi). And how big Bacchus is in comparison.

Centaurs bring Medium-size makes plenty of sense from a fluff perspective and it neatly avoids any issues that may crop up due to being Large size from a mechanics perspective. The only issue is that they were introduced as Large size in the MM.

Oh, well? Call it a mistake and move forward?

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Originally Posted by Tectorman

Ever watch Fantasia? Take a look at both the Centaurs and the Centaurettes. And how they compare to the Cupids. And the Satyr kids. And the Unicorn and Pegasus foals (and how they, in turn, compare to the adult Pegasi). And how big Bacchus is in comparison.

Centaurs bring Medium-size makes plenty of sense from a fluff perspective and it neatly avoids any issues that may crop up due to being Large size from a mechanics perspective. The only issue is that they were introduced as Large size in the MM.

Oh, well? Call it a mistake and move forward?

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But that's the thing. We're not talking about Fantasia centaurs (I haven't seen it, by the way), we're talking about D&D centaurs. Which are established as Large. This problem arises every time someone decide "hey, this would be cool as a playable race!" and then make it different from supposedly the same race already present in the books (hobgoblins, goblins and kobolds, I'm looking at you!... actually, half Volo's races, when I think about it) to make it balanced. I have the same problem every time someone tries to homebrew playable vampire, lycanthrope, or what-have-you.

I'm cool with PCs and NPCs being different based on the "class" abilities, but making their racial abilities different is bad design.

Human should be the only playable race, and everyone should shut about playing anything else.

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Originally Posted by JackPhoenix

But that's the thing. We're not talking about Fantasia centaurs (I haven't seen it, by the way), we're talking about D&D centaurs. Which are established as Large. This problem arises every time someone decide "hey, this would be cool as a playable race!" and then make it different from supposedly the same race already present in the books (hobgoblins, goblins and kobolds, I'm looking at you!... actually, half Volo's races, when I think about it) to make it balanced. I have the same problem every time someone tries to homebrew playable vampire, lycanthrope, or what-have-you.

I'm cool with PCs and NPCs being different based on the "class" abilities, but making their racial abilities different is bad design.

Human should be the only playable race, and everyone should shut about playing anything else.

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If you like classical music at all Fantasia is an amazing music video.

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Originally Posted by WhismurWanders

You may want to consider using "melee weapon attack" as opposed to simply "melee attack" due to certain melee spell attacks.

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I didn't actually change that part, the ability in the Unearthed Arcana only specifies melee attack. Furthermore, booming blade and green-flame blade aren't spell attacks, so this distinction wouldn't affect them. It would affect spells like shocking grasp and flame blade.

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Originally Posted by Regitnui

Is there a region or place in Forgotten Realms outside the Sword Coast known for 'monstrous' adventurers?

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The Shaar, the vast arid steppe that covers a huge tract of Southern Faerun, with a huge set of cliffs that cut across it. It's home to Thri-Kreen (one subrace), Loxo (anthropomorphic Elephants with two trunks), Wemics (Lion centaurs) and Gnolls. There are a few merc companies that hire monsters, and at the extreme Southeast of the Shaar, there is a monster nation called Veldorn.

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Originally Posted by JackPhoenix

But that's the thing. We're not talking about Fantasia centaurs (I haven't seen it, by the way), we're talking about D&D centaurs. Which are established as Large. This problem arises every time someone decide "hey, this would be cool as a playable race!" and then make it different from supposedly the same race already present in the books (hobgoblins, goblins and kobolds, I'm looking at you!... actually, half Volo's races, when I think about it) to make it balanced. I have the same problem every time someone tries to homebrew playable vampire, lycanthrope, or what-have-you.

I'm cool with PCs and NPCs being different based on the "class" abilities, but making their racial abilities different is bad design.

Human should be the only playable race, and everyone should shut about playing anything else.

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So your only problem is that they first came out as Large in the MM? Okay. Again, why is that the issue? It came out first; of what significance is that? Why does that give it primacy? Why is that not the mistake and the playable Medium size must be the mistake instead? Why can it not be the other way around?

Or to bring it to a solution that keeps both options on deck, why not have multiple breeds? The Large size MM Centaurs are one breed (and make that one playable option) and the playable Medium size Centaurs are a different breed (and also playable). We have, what, six different varieties of Elf. I think previous editions had as many as eleven. The game can easily boast multiple subraces of Centaur.

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Originally Posted by Tectorman

Or to bring it to a solution that keeps both options on deck, why not have multiple breeds? The Large size MM Centaurs are one breed (and make that one playable option) and the playable Medium size Centaurs are a different breed (and also playable). We have, what, six different varieties of Elf. I think previous editions had as many as eleven. The game can easily boast multiple subraces of Centaur.

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In 2e, there were quite a few different types of centaur that were medium or small sized. Just stat a few of those up as PC races, job done

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Originally Posted by Tectorman

So your only problem is that they first came out as Large in the MM? Okay. Again, why is that the issue? It came out first; of what significance is that? Why does that give it primacy? Why is that not the mistake and the playable Medium size must be the mistake instead? Why can it not be the other way around?

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Well, there's also the fact that the UA fluff itself describes centaurs as "towering over" other Medium-sized creatures, so even UA appears to want MM-sized centaurs instead of tiny Fantasia-sized centaurs.