Pathfinder Vampires

I was becoming curious about something. Looking through the PFSRD I noticed a lot of templates for Vampires.

Is it just me or would anyone be insane not to take the Dread Vampire Template if they where going for a Vampire PC. Or if your looking for a vampire big bad, one that is not gonna be thwarted by a leaky hose making a small stream.

So are PF Vampires stronger, more powerful, then a D&D 3.5 Vampires?

I was considering doing a Vampire PC for a lvl 10 game their CRs vary from +2 or +3 maybe a +4 I may have missed.

What do the Play-grounders think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TabletopGamer

So are PF Vampires stronger, more powerful, then a D&D 3.5 Vampires?

---

Let's look at the quality differences:

- PF vampires have lower HD (d8 instead of d12), but they get Cha to HP. Unless you were using max rolls for health in 3.5, chances are they came out ahead with this change.

- Negative levels are weaker in PF (they don't take away your spells for example.)

- PF Blood Drain is Su, so you're safe from being drained entirely in an AMF.

- PF Vampires call 1d6 less wolves. Other Children of the Night options are unaffected.

- PF Dominate can (potentially) affect nonhumanoids.

- PF Vampires gain Toughness (which is also stronger than the 3.5 version.

- PF Vampires are vulnerable to sneak attack (but not while in Gaseous Form.)


And then the weakness differences:

- When being held at bay, PF Vampires gain a save each round to ignore the mirror/holy symbol for that round.

- PF Vampires are staggered for the first round of being exposed to sunlight, meaning they have a slightly wider array of available actions to choose from (i.e. they don't have to attack.)

- PF Vampires must be helpless to be staked, and it takes a full-round action.

- PF vampire clerics and wizards no longer have their class features interfered with.

- PF Vampires still take damage from running water but can cross it without being in their coffins. (Flying over it, crossing a bridge etc.)

Indeed I am not saying they where overwhelmingly better or anything. The AMF weakness might not come into play too much but its a nice thing for the players to exploit. Of course a caster in a AMF is helpless as well.

What do you guys think of the LA or CR of these templates in comparison. This includes things like the Half-Vampire. But only things that are true vampires, not Vampiric Dragons or something like that.

At the risk of sounding like that guy who's always pointing out the same thing—There is no LA in Pathfinder.

Also, there are lots of vampire templates in PF, including mythic vampires, some of which are obviously better than others, but none of them are really appropriate for players. Lugging around your coffin everywhere is annoying, and before you learn how to overcome them, some of the other weaknesses are just too unplayable for anyone but spellcasters.

Why the Coffin thing is an issue I don't understand. Wouldn't a simple bag of holding be fine for a coffin? Have a Hireling carry around your bag of holding which has your coffin, when you sleep during the day it carries it around with you inside it. Vampires don't breath right, a bottle of air would remedy that issue anyway.

For Mythic Vampire its a Template on a Template which could be why its a issue.

For a Player Character I don't really see an issue if the party is a high enough level that the benefits don't overwhelm the parties balance. For example the level ten party with a Dread Vampire would be doable since the CR for Dread Vampire is +3 So on a normal human that makes their CR 3 1/2 without class levels, adding a CR for each CL till they reach 9 1/2 and you have a player who has different abilities but not overwhelmingly so. In fact they would either be a lvl 7 or lvl 8 if your willing to make their CR 10 1/2 over the other players 10, again not a huge hassle.

We have played with Drow Nobles before and never had an issue with them breaking the game or anything and their CR 1 adjustment never crippled them either. Yeah they are powerful, and if you purposely used it to minmax or attempted to break the game you could.

The players I play with don't really care about minmaxing or optimizing or anything of the sort. We have one who likes to Minmax but knows that it ticks off the other players when he tries to pull stuff like that and he tends not to be very popular and when its RP and half the party is basically ignoring you through the entire session then you get the hint. He tones it down.

We had a DN Ranger who did very well in the game using a mix of Darkness and such with out Rogue to Sneak Attack. It allowed combos that might not be possible and added more fun to more then that player. A DN gunslinger hit pretty hard with that +4 Dex boost and Pistolero's double Dex to damage at lvl 5. But the spellcaster in the group (I forget what he was, I think Sorc or Wizard) was dealing more overall damage then his 1 shot.. and then needing to either reload or move option. And the magic caster had more situational use as did the Psion.

I am a fan of Combat Maneuvers so whenever someone got close I would end up dropping them with a trip, a grapple, or something making me useful at close range. Of course the GM liked those too which made the DNs good but not perfect, if they didn't use levitate they could be tripped, grappled, disarmed, etc. Deeper Darkness is good but it leaves the DN blind too if its already Dim Light, so you have the caster of it reaching wildly into the dark and often times getting into scuffs with party members who are blinded as well making it a bit of a clusterf*ck if he casts it in the wrong situation.

My belief is, if the gamers like the story and not the 'oh cool I get to kill sh*t' then they are less likely to break your game. So what if the Vampire recalls he can go Gas Form at will.. if you have him locked in a cell and just add some throw away ;line about the bars being rubbed with Garlic powder and juices he wouldn't argue he could make a will save or something to get past it till it was good for the story.

So I don't seem a lot of CR or LAs being an issue if you trust your players. Now if their Minmaxing annoying brats who just want to play a hack and slash then hand them a copy of GoW and boot them from the party if they want to do that during your RP based game. (Had to do it myself.. never fun but needed to be done.)


Ok I ranted, I am sorry lol.
Anyway I just think the Templates are easier to follow, find, and work with. Heck they give you a Dhampir as a player race. (No arguing over whether the advanced races are meant to be only NPCs either please)

For why the Coffin Thing is generally an issue:

You mention a Bag of Holding, but generally the only time you need to get into your coffin is:

A) You have to cross a body of water, in which case this isn't too much of a problem. You whip out your bag of holding, throw down the coffin, climb inside and tell your party "Carry me, whelps!". It's ANNOYING... but it's not really a "problem" unless your DM is being sadistic about it and going to make it a real chore for your players. And if he IS going to be sadistic about it, one botched skill check, Acrobatics or something, probably means someone just dropped your coffin in the river and you're dead.

B) You just got Misted and need to run to it. This is where it IS a bigger problem. When you're in your coffin healing, you're effectively helpless. So you don't want to be "Helpless" 5 feet away from where something just killed you. So you ideally want your coffin not near your location. But close enough you can get to it in the time limit given. Also note that if you had it in a Bag of Holding? Well... you got misted. Meaning your bag of holding is no longer available to you (General shapechanging rules about merging with your new form), so you wouldn't get to it. Which is a bad deal as that means you're effectively dead once your timer runs out on the Mistform, with no way to run back to your coffin.

PF Vampires can cross running water just fine actually. I'll add that to my original post.

I did mention making a hiring or someone else carry it. Meaning they see you get misted, they and you flee the scene, they can move faster then you normally. they get the coffin out and you get inside, they shove the coffin back in the bag and keep running, typically this is where if your dealing with angry villagers or something Vampire Hunters whatever. They can do diguise checks or simply stealth or hide checks depending on the game and sneak off. Heck if they have a Ring of Blink or something that makes them hard to see or invisible, if its a wizard with Teleport your golden.

I do admit that yes the shapeshifting bag rule is the real trick. But looking on the PF SRD I did see a bag that allows a Druid to still have access to his stuff even when he wildshapes.

Edit: Psyren only Dread Vampires and Higher types, Base Vampire cannot and they cannot enter houses. Dread Vampire can enter any house, cross running water, laugh at a stake to the heart and while they dont like Garlic they are not repelled by it either. Basically they would almost have to be the Vampires a player uses, to not get bogged down with the tiny mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TabletopGamer

So I don't seem a lot of CR or LAs being an issue if you trust your players.

---

I wasn't implying they're an issue power-wise. I play a vampire myself, and I'll be the first person to voice my distaste for LA, especially in Pathfinder where it doesn't exist. But I can tell you from experience that all the vampire weaknesses are a massive annoyance for any murderhobo, and without being a spellcaster, you're gonna get curbstomped by any decent vampire hunters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TabletopGamer

I did mention making a hiring or someone else carry it. Meaning they see you get misted, they and you flee the scene, they can move faster then you normally. they get the coffin out and you get inside, they shove the coffin back in the bag and keep running

---

Yeah, that doesn't work in practice at all. If your enemies are strong enough to kill you, any hireling isn't gonna stand a chance, and there's certainly no time to get the coffin out, get yourself in, get the coffin back in, and then run away. I've tried a bunch of tactics, and your coffin is simply your biggest liability. Much more so than a lich's phylactery, really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TabletopGamer

Dread Vampire can enter any house, cross running water, laugh at a stake to the heart and while they dont like Garlic they are not repelled by it either.

---

They're also a third-party product and thus not viable for the vast majority of groups.

It is third party this is true, it is on the PFSRD is all I meant.

I agree its not fool proof.

We run a different tactic for Hirelings and Cohorts. We train them in specific fields. Using money to pay for training in fields, basically schooling. I favor mine to have stealth based skills, allowing for them to sneak around and thus provide RP reasons why I would get a lot of intel from my Gathering Info rolls. Some favor Heal to make battle field surgeons and what not.

So if you used this tactic and your hireling was very good at sneaking around then they could be near or just ordered to wait for you at a location should things go south. Using Hide to better hide themselves and when you meet up with them in mist form they open the coffin and let you in stuff the bag and sneak off. If its a monster sure this might be an issue. Vampire Hunters would be easier to hide from.

I use LA being in 3.5 and Cr meaning in Pathfinder not that Pathfinder has LA sorry for being confusing.

The weaknesses are annoying and make the game very hard, and yes if your running it as anything but a Spellcaster or at least have a spellcaster who is constantly helping it would be hard.

Or you could mostly ignore the coffin and play in a "if I get misted I'm as dead as any other party member" way. Considering the massive hit points boost if you play a Charisma based class, and your regeneration, and your DR, this should even out.

As for the sunlight problem, as I keep repeating in every Vampire thread since last year : Protective Penumbra is a thing you can permanently shove in a magic item for 18,000g.

So yeah... Vampire Charisma based casters? Kind of amazing. The streams, home invasion permissions, feeding needs? They're not annoyances, they're RP hooks.

If you have a bonded item and use downtime rules, you can get your very own "daywalker ring" for like 4,500 gp without even taking any crafting feats. Or if you have a familiar/companion with crafting feats that can use magic points. :smallbiggrin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TabletopGamer

Vampire Hunters would be easier to hide from.

---

That's ridiculous, they would be harder to hide from. Most vampires have lots of abilities that allow them to hide, so most vampire hunters can counter that with high Perception and divination spells. Even if manage to evade the hunters after they gas you, your hireling would in most cases be far easier to find.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TabletopGamer

I use LA being in 3.5 and Cr meaning in Pathfinder not that Pathfinder has LA sorry for being confusing.

---

CR in Pathfinder is not an increase to your ECL. You can have a +4 CR template and progress at the normal rate with the rest of your party as far as RAW is concerned.

I meant it is meant to be a judge similar to, about how powerful a race is.

And with the Hireling I was meaning that.

your hireling looks human, is human, etc. A human among a crowd of humans is not going to stand out much. If they know what your Hireling looks like, yes this is far more difficult to accomplish but if you have been smart and hidden your Hireling or Cohort or whatever and they cannot find out the identity of your servant then simply travel through the city or area to them they give you access to your Coffin and then they close the bag and slip into a crowd of humans who are all dressed in roughly the same.

Shy of a Divination spell or some other magical ability they are not gonna pinpoint your hireling automatically. This gives it some chance to escape before they do discover this, and even then there are ways around this if your clever and the GM is not a Rule Nazi.

Why is everyone still talking about the streams/running water? That is not part of the PF Vampire entry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keneth

CR in Pathfinder is not an increase to your ECL. You can have a +4 CR template and progress at the normal rate with the rest of your party as far as RAW is concerned.

---

+2 I think

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Psyren

Why is everyone still talking about the streams/running water? That is not part of the PF Vampire entry.

---

Personally, I'm more interested in why people are talking about "hirelings..."

You're a VAMPIRE! DOMINATE, darn it!:smallamused:

Seriously, what proper vampire doesn't have his own personal buttmonkey manservant?

Well of course I was just using 1 generic term.

And we know, Vampires in PF just cannot get into running water

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TabletopGamer

And we know, Vampires in PF just cannot get into running water

---

Well, they can, it just hurts. But they can wade into it, gaseous form over it, bat form over it, cross a bridge etc. That combined with the new save to resist "hold at bay" and they end up being quite a bit more deadly than they were in 3.5.

Very true and that is just Stock Vampire, some of the other variants are much more powerful.