What is the best type of "Leader" Or "Buffer" for a Military style campaign?

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Originally Posted by Wookie-ranger

IRL the army that is better equipped, has more soldiers, and/or better soldiers does not always win. As a matter of fact, that is probably one of the least important factor.

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Preparation>>>>knowledge>>training>morale>>>number s>equipment

Training is kind of a big deal (the better soldiers part of your quote), but I agree that equipment and numbers are not necessarily a deciding factor. That in mind, if any one of these is way out of proportion (for example an army of 10,000 versus an army of 400,000,000, chances are the 10,000 are going to lose even if by pure exhaustion) then it can still overshadow the other factors.

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Originally Posted by LTwerewolf

...if any one of these is way out of proportion (for example an army of 10,000 versus an army of 400,000,000, chances are the 10,000 are going to lose even if by pure exhaustion) then it can still overshadow the other factors.

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sort of mostly agree. Training is important and numbers matter (well, until you hit level12 :smallwink:)
The thing is, that with enough preparation and info the numbers don't matter all that much. Sure in a direct battle that is a factor, but with guerrilla style warfare that is a different matter. Cutting off supply lines, small hit and run attacks where you don't take any losses, aiming for the leaders, those tactics require little man power and have low risk.
I would say that with enough knowledge and planing 1 person can defeat 400,000,000. Taking out the few that lead and the rest will fall. This is especially true if magic-stuff comes into play.

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Originally Posted by JKTrickster

It seems like there are two main methods: Bards, or a tier 1 caster.
Out of all the Tier 1 caster, which would be the most appropriate?

EDIT:
Just as a note, I would like to focus on the ability to LEAD an army, and not destroy one.

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For Tier 1 I would say Cleric of <insert random war/honor/discipline God>.
That would give enough fluff and a reasonable high CHA. The ability to cast spells and heal is an added bonus.

I don't know about you, but i have yet to see a courageous leader that sings his army to victory. Sure, this is D&D, but that is just not the image i have in my head.


BTW, read "the art of war". i know, i know, hyped up to high heavens, but there is a good reason for it.

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Originally Posted by Deth Muncher

It depends on what flavor of thing you want to do for the T1s.

Do you want to literally change the battlefield to help your troops? Consider Druid.

Do you want to spread buffs around to your allies, making them better? Consider the Cleric.

Do you want to lock down chunks of an opposing army? Try Wizard/Sorceror.

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The way I saw it was Diviner (focused specialist or no?) vs. Cloistered Cleric vs. Archivist.

Which would be ideal for the intelligent and wise general? Or is it possible to be intelligent, wise, AND charismatic? :smallbiggrin:

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Originally Posted by Malroth

Since you're not liking Bard you could Go Bard2/paladin of freedom x and take the Initiate Of Milli Feat to let your paladin and bard levels stack for the purposes of bardic music. You'll be less powerful than a straight bard and MUCH less powerful than an optimized Bard->Virtuoso->Sublime chord but you will look shiny with your fullBAB/platemail/aura of courage. Since Maintaining Performance is a Non-action in 3.5 in either case buffing your army won't interfere in the least with whatever melee or magical build you're following up with.

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Oh I am totally for bard. Why wouldn't I be?

On the other hand, how does the Sublime Chord compare to other casters in terms of strategic ability?

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Originally Posted by Wookie-ranger

sort of mostly agree. Training is important and numbers matter (well, until you hit level12 :smallwink:)
The thing is, that with enough preparation and info the numbers don't matter all that much. Sure in a direct battle that is a factor, but with guerrilla style warfare that is a different matter. Cutting off supply lines, small hit and run attacks where you don't take any losses, aiming for the leaders, those tactics require little man power and have low risk.
I would say that with enough knowledge and planing 1 person can defeat 400,000,000. Taking out the few that lead and the rest will fall. This is especially true if magic-stuff comes into play.



For Tier 1 I would say Cleric of <insert random war/honor/discipline God>.
That would give enough fluff and a reasonable high CHA. The ability to cast spells and heal is an added bonus.

I don't know about you, but i have yet to see a courageous leader that sings his army to victory. Sure, this is D&D, but that is just not the image i have in my head.


BTW, read "the art of war". i know, i know, hyped up to high heavens, but there is a good reason for it.

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True, most Bards aren't quite the leaders but a 5th member that acts as a force multiplier in fights.

Oh I've read it more than a few times. That's the only reason why I felt comfortable launching myself into a military campaign where a portion of my troops aren't even equipped to fight. :smallsigh:

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Originally Posted by JKTrickster

Which would be ideal for the intelligent and wise general? Or is it possible to be intelligent, wise, AND charismatic? :smallbiggrin:

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There is the Cloistered Cleric.
you will have high Wis for spells and such, you will have 2nd highest Cha mainly for fluff and turn and you will get the knowledge skill on your list which includes history (war), tactics, ...
as an added bonus you get the knowledge domain, which has some nice (if redundant) deviations.

A Cloistered Cleric General of a war god would learn all about military strategy and tactics during his youth (explaining the knowledge). They would focus less on actual combat and more on leading people (explaining the high CHA and reduced hp), the war god in question would also grand them the bonus of not only fighting the battle, but also about knowing about past battles (explaining the domain and the "Lore").
as an added bonus they can help out the troops by healing, buffing making items. nothing makes a follower more loyal then saving his life, even if they where already dead.

Wasn't Warpriest envisioned (on paper at least) exactly for these kinds of things?

If you have an army but no supply lines, you need a good way to feed all those people. You could have them forage for food, but that slows you down. The right spellcaster can probably work miracles in that department. I'm thinking Druid.

Also, Bards are easily skinned to non-musical roles. Give him Perform(Oratory), and you've got a commander who inspires confidence through great pre-battle speeches.

1. Take Dread Necro.
2. Reach level 8.
3. Zombify or skelefy the army.
4. ???
5. Profit.

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Originally Posted by woodzyowl

1. Take Dread Necro.
2. Reach level 8.
3. Zombify or skelefy the army.
4. ???
5. Profit.

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i like your thinking :smallbiggrin:

One of your biggest resources is your ability to train your men for classes. Start turning them into fighters and other things as you go.

Why would you want to turn them into fighters? You wanna give them breath weapons... seriously...

Fighters > Warriors. And thats only for base troops. There are a bunch of classes you can turn them into.

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Originally Posted by Wookie-ranger

There is the Cloistered Cleric.
you will have high Wis for spells and such, you will have 2nd highest Cha mainly for fluff and turn and you will get the knowledge skill on your list which includes history (war), tactics, ...
as an added bonus you get the knowledge domain, which has some nice (if redundant) deviations.

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Ahh that makes sense. Cloistered Cleric is also good because Divine has the best Divination spells correct?

What domains could I focus on? What feats/build would you suggest? I'm not that experienced with Clerics (read: never played one before) so how would I go build one?

Would an Archivist be better or worst than a Cleric?

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Originally Posted by mcv

If you have an army but no supply lines, you need a good way to feed all those people. You could have them forage for food, but that slows you down. The right spellcaster can probably work miracles in that department. I'm thinking Druid.

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Hmm that is true. Is a Druid that much better than a Cleric for this?

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Originally Posted by woodzyowl

1. Take Dread Necro.
2. Reach level 8.
3. Zombify or skelefy the army.
4. ???
5. Profit.

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Sadly this is out of the question. It IS a real nation, with their own concerns and morale, and raising fallen soldiers tends to drop morale quite quickly.

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Originally Posted by Cranthis

One of your biggest resources is your ability to train your men for classes. Start turning them into fighters and other things as you go.

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I can do that? How? :smallconfused:

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I can do that? How?

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Simple. Tell your dm you start training some men into the class you want. He will tell you the time it takes (probably not long if it is just fighter), and other things.

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Originally Posted by Cranthis

Simple. Tell your dm you start training some men into the class you want. He will tell you the time it takes (probably not long if it is just fighter), and other things.

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Oh.....that's.....refreshingly direct.

Still.

I can do that? Without Fighter levels?

Wow.

Pretty much yeah. If you think about it, becoming a fighter is the easiest character class to become.

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Originally Posted by JKTrickster

Oh.....that's.....refreshingly direct.

Still.

I can do that? Without Fighter levels?

Wow.

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remember, its commoner to expert to savant to factotum.
or commoner to warrior to fighter to warblade.

if we are thinking of class upgrade paths, what is directly better than what.

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remember, its commoner to expert to savant to factotum.
or commoner to warrior to fighter to warblade.

if we are thinking of class upgrade paths, what is directly better than what.

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I like that thought path. Really, the only classes you couldn't put people into are wizards and sorcerers. Any other magic classes wouldn't be too hard. Like warmage. Not an awesome class overall, but for what you are doing it would be pretty good.

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Originally Posted by JKTrickster

Oh.....that's.....refreshingly direct.

Still.

I can do that? Without Fighter levels?

Wow.

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Fighter levels don't really factor into it. However, RAW, training doesn't either: they have to gain XP like anyone else.

Anyway, the main issue here is equipment. You have cash, and the personal power to rustle up more, you just need a friendly port to buy unlimited supplies. That's why I'm going to suggest that rather than making a buffing build, you make a build that can access planar travel as early as possible. An Artificer will be able to do it with Lesser Planar Ally: Nightmare, while a Nomad can do it at somewhat more risk (but the potential of taking your army with you if you're allowed to customize them so they all have Hidden Talent: Astral Traveler) with Astral Caravan.

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Originally Posted by Urpriest

Fighter levels don't really factor into it. However, RAW, training doesn't either: they have to gain XP like anyone else.

Anyway, the main issue here is equipment. You have cash, and the personal power to rustle up more, you just need a friendly port to buy unlimited supplies. That's why I'm going to suggest that rather than making a buffing build, you make a build that can access planar travel as early as possible. An Artificer will be able to do it with Lesser Planar Ally: Nightmare, while a Nomad can do it at somewhat more risk (but the potential of taking your army with you if you're allowed to customize them so they all have Hidden Talent: Astral Traveler) with Astral Caravan.

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Ahh so basically wait for them to level up and see if I can influence how they level up. Okay, that's simple.


Hmm what do you mean? How do I get funds through planar travel?

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Originally Posted by JKTrickster

Hmm what do you mean? How do I get funds through planar travel?

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Planar travel won't help too much with funds, just with how to spend them (though the usual source of funds, killing things, is enhanced if you've got decent access to planar travel). I had the impression that in order to gear your army you needed to salvage equipment, you can't just buy it. If you can jaunt over to the City of Brass, you can buy anything you've got the cash for. But yes, you do still need the cash.

There is also the Arbiter class. Its homebrew, but it sounds like what you are looking for. At level 6 one of its best abilities comes online to. Here is the link.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...5#post12154375

At level 6 alone all enemies within like 50 feet or so can no longer role a natural 20 on attack rolls. Meaning no criticals from those 2handed weapons for massive damage. You also gain spells, both divine and arcane, and you can steal enemy bonuses. To top it all off all allies in your aura also gain a bonus to attck rolls, damage rolls, and AC while your enemies get a penalty = to your bonus. Throw in legendary commander latter on and you should be all set.

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Originally Posted by Urpriest

Planar travel won't help too much with funds, just with how to spend them (though the usual source of funds, killing things, is enhanced if you've got decent access to planar travel). I had the impression that in order to gear your army you needed to salvage equipment, you can't just buy it. If you can jaunt over to the City of Brass, you can buy anything you've got the cash for. But yes, you do still need the cash.

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Ahh okay that definitely makes sense.

As a general rule, how should I build a Cloistered Cleric that is geared towards using Divinations to scry on enemy commanders?