Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
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Originally Posted by
KillianHawkeye
Or maybe they'll realize that their mistake was that they were such huge jerks in the first place,
The problem with jerks usually is they do not realise they are jerks, even if their nose is rubbed in it.
The gods really had all chances in two worlds to notice they are actually jerks, but they still go on behaving like they do. They even mucked up the second prison when they knew how important it was to do a really thorough job. I'd not put any money on the OotS-gods, all in all and most of them simply do seem to be jerks.
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
I make no comment on the substance of the arguments here, but I just wanted to chime in and say that it was my intent to imply that in the crayon pages of Start of Darkness, the other gods were capable of unilaterally killing The Dark One only because he was newly ascended.
He had used up all of his "worshipper juice" becoming a god, leaving him somewhat weak and with no experience using divine powers. After some of the other gods broke ranks to defend him, he took control of the goblinoids and established regular worship among them. So he's been building his power for a few centuries since then, and unlike other gods, he doesn't have to share his species' worship with several competing deities.
Basically, that was their only shot to just gang up and kill him out of hand.
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Ah....So gods can't kill other gods.
This also brings up a point:
Do Goblins worship other gods? Does a goblin get all offended if everybody presumes it HAS to worship the god of goblins?
PS: Hows typing with your thumb going Rich? Tis OK?
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Interesting. So the gods directly draw their power out of the number of beings worshiping them?
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
Do Goblins worship other gods? Does a goblin get all offended if everybody presumes it HAS to worship the god of goblins?
"Big demon prince guy" doesn't really sound like the Dark One. But that's a rather early strip.
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Originally Posted by
Koo Rehtorb
Interesting. So the gods directly draw their power out of the number of beings worshiping them?
It's a quite common concept.
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
Ah....So gods can't kill other gods.
Well... they can't do so easily. I imagine that if every member of the other pantheons were irreconcilably hostile to him, the Dark One could be taken out, even if he gave as good as he got.
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Giant
I make no comment on the substance of the arguments here, but I just wanted to chime in and say that it was my intent to imply that in the crayon pages of Start of Darkness, the other gods were capable of unilaterally killing The Dark One only because he was newly ascended.
He had used up all of his "worshipper juice" becoming a god, leaving him somewhat weak and with no experience using divine powers. After some of the other gods broke ranks to defend him, he took control of the goblinoids and established regular worship among them. So he's been building his power for a few centuries since then, and unlike other gods, he doesn't have to share his species' worship with several competing deities.
Basically, that was their only shot to just gang up and kill him out of hand.
Hi, Rich! Thanks a bunch for clarifying this for us. Glad to see your hand is improving enough so that you're able to be active online again. Do us a favor and don't overdo it, though. Cheers!
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koo Rehtorb
Interesting. So the gods directly draw their power out of the number of beings worshiping them?
That and their domains, though followers are generally worth more.
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Carry2
Well... they can't do so easily. I imagine that if every member of the other pantheons were irreconcilably hostile to him, the Dark One could be taken out, even if he gave as good as he got.
It would not take all of them probably 2-3 maybe more if other gods help the darkone
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
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Originally Posted by
about50heavies
It would not take all of them probably 2-3 maybe more if other gods help the darkone
If you read what the Giant wrote up above, he says that the only chance of removing The Dark One was right after he arose to divinity. Meaning that it is no longer possible, even if other gods gang up on him. (He will simply reform from the belief of his followers.)
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Carry2
I think the problem here may be that the author is trying to write a story that revolves around grey-and-fuzzy-morality in the context of an RPG system that presupposes the existence of some very-non-grey-and-fuzzy moral standards.
Here's a much better question: Given that Redcloak has already more-or-less accomplished his original goal of securing the goblinoid peoples a reasonably prosperous kingdom on an equal footing with the other humanoid species, why is he still interested in pursuing this extremely risky and over-elaborate master-plan?
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Originally Posted by
Jay R
"...may be willing to...?" He's working with Xykon. Accepting the risk of personal annihilation is his daily routine.
This is addressed in Start of Darkness. We've already gotten a glimpse into it in the main comic, but I'll mark this as spoilers:
Spoiler
Show
Even before Azure City, Redcloak already had a peaceful village all to his own, and was about ready to hang up the Cloak and die of old age. And then the biggest mistake of his life (Xykon) caught up to him.
It boils down to this: Redloak has sacrificed so much to further the Plan, that he refuses to admit that the Plan is flawed. If he were to accept that the Plan was flawed, then he would be admitting that he allowed thousands of goblins to die for nothing. Redcloak cannot stop following the Plan because it would make him a monster in his own eyes. As we've already seen when Redcloak made a fake phylactery, his mantra is "this will all be worth it someday".
And this makes the Dark One's plan even more suspect. Redcloak has proven, twice, that a dedicated Lawful goblin can build a prosperous goblin settlement. The Dark One hasn't revoked the Cloak.
It seems that the Dark One craves power, and is willing to risk everything, even his beloved goblinoid races, in order to get it. Redcloak trusts the Dark One because the only alternative is to come to grips with being a mass-murderer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Giant
Basically, that was their only shot to just gang up and kill him out of hand.
Thanks for commenting. Take it easy on the hand.
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KillianHawkeye
If you read what the Giant wrote up above, he says that the only chance of removing The Dark One was right after he arose to divinity. Meaning that it is no longer possible, even if other gods gang up on him. (He will simply reform from the belief of his followers.)
I took that to mean that that's the only time they could have killed him without a fight. Now if they wanted to kill him they'd have a fight on their hands that might very well get some of them killed in the process and would be a big mess.
They could only have executed him when he was newly risen.
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Mmmm....I have often wondered how come the gods don't take a more active role in stopping Redcloak's Plan (they must know what is he doing, since Durkon knows, and the priests and paladins of Azure City know and Tsukiko know)...Now I wonder, maybe they are planning to seize the Gate for themselves and use it to erase the Dark One, his Divine Realm an all the goblin souls?
Durkon and that dwarf priest of Loki chick are candidates for doing the divine part, and poor Vaarsavious, who owes a debt to a group of evil beings with an secret agenda could be manipulated into doing the arcane part.
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
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Originally Posted by
about50heavies
It would not take all of them probably 2-3 maybe more if other gods help the darkone
You seem to know alot despite not being the author of the story...
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
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Originally Posted by
rottenvenetic
There's also the problem of what has become of the Snarl. When Soon Kim and Mijing found the first rift, we are shown a claw running her through as if she were some fragile mortal meatbag. Which she was.
I am aware that the Snarl has demonstrated it can do the same to gods.
Careful. An oft overlooked detail is that the Scribble tale explicitly says that the Snarl's effect is proportionally much stronger on the gods themselves, due to some aspect of the the Snarl's fundamental nature. We can surmise that a 21st level mortal hero has much more staying power toe-to-toe than mighty Zeus.
(That leads to my little speculation on Kraagor that it is actually possible for him to still be alive.)
The fact that a wife-of-Soon of unknown level died from a single pinky strike does tell us much.
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Snails
Careful. An oft overlooked detail is that the Scribble tale explicitly says that the Snarl's effect is proportionally much stronger on the gods themselves, due to some aspect of the the Snarl's fundamental nature. We can surmise that a 21st level mortal hero has much more staying power toe-to-toe than mighty Zeus.
(That leads to my little speculation on Kraagor that it is actually possible for him to still be alive.)
The fact that a wife-of-Soon of unknown level died from a single pinky strike does tell us much.
I think I see what's going on now. Kraagor killed the snarl, but got hungry and ate it's body. The snarl's mind then combined with kraagor's. Kraasnarl, now capable of individual thought, created the world within the gate, but was unable to create life flr whatever reason. So he then created the dark one as his avatar to ascend to goblingodhood, and shepherd the goblin people to his world and make them his children.
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Corwin Icewolf
I think I see what's going on now. Kraagor killed the snarl, but got hungry and ate it's body. The snarl's mind then combined with kraagor's. Kraasnarl, now capable of individual thought, created the world within the gate, but was unable to create life flr whatever reason. So he then created the dark one as his avatar to ascend to goblingodhood, and shepherd the goblin people to his world and make them his children.
And due to its sheer size the snarl was really filling, so even after forming Kraasnarl the combined entity was still completely stuffed and drowsy. This explains the lack of snarl activity near the ungated rifts.
Fun fact: Snarl meat is LOADED with tryptophan (aka the amino acid, prevalent in turkey that the news says makes you sleepy every Thanksgiving)
Re: What is the point of redcloak's plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Giant
I make no comment on the substance of the arguments here, but I just wanted to chime in and say that it was my intent to imply that in the crayon pages of Start of Darkness, the other gods were capable of unilaterally killing The Dark One only because he was newly ascended.
He had used up all of his "worshipper juice" becoming a god, leaving him somewhat weak and with no experience using divine powers. After some of the other gods broke ranks to defend him, he took control of the goblinoids and established regular worship among them. So he's been building his power for a few centuries since then, and unlike other gods, he doesn't have to share his species' worship with several competing deities.
Basically, that was their only shot to just gang up and kill him out of hand.
Interesting...I didn't catch that. Now you've made me want to go back and reread the prequels.