Greg's loyalty to Hel

Hello, everyone !

Re-reading the discusion between the Thorsaken and the Exaargh in 1087, I started wondering : How loyal is Whiskers in the Dark to his dark Mistress ?

Durkon original recipe loved is patron Thor with all his heart (in a stricly heterosexual-buddy-kind of way), but if Durkon putting others before himself means Count Durkula is a selfish unlegitimate offspring it should mean that the Low Priest of Hel has nothing but scorn for her, should it not ? In that case it would mean that he only serves her as a mean to an end, namely his revenge against Dwarfkind and Roy.

But as shown by the LG polar opposites must have some likeness to each other and maybe Darkon truly is loyal to Hel.

What do you think ? Should his loyalty be tested in a "either kill Roy or fulfill Hel's plan" scenario what do you guess would Phyrnglsnyx do ?

Don't get caught up too much with ideas of opposites. That way lies madness. After all, Character X wears clothes doesn't translate to Evil Opposite X is a nudist. Think of him less as opposite than as a dark reflection. There is much to recognize of Durkon in his evil counterpart, including his devotion and loyalty to his deity.

Yeah, "you on your worst day" is sometimes simplified to "your opposite" in this here forum, but that's not how it works. Vamp Durkon doesn't seem to be merely Hel's puppet, he has his own goals and desires, but so far there's little reason to suggest that makes him any less loyal to Hel. I do think he could (and perhaps will) become sidetracked and lose sight of his end goal, but that'd be because he'd get carried away, not because he'd consciously choose to defy Hel's orders.

I think that this is a false distinction. As much as Durkula resents Roy, his biggest motivation is revenge on the Dwarven people. Because that's what Durkon wanted in his darkest moment. This can't be a competing priority against his loyalty to Hel, because completing Hel's plan is the greatest revenge against the Dwarven people conceivable.

I think that his own goals may indeed be more important to Durkula than bare LE-cleric loyalty to his deity. But those goals are practically identical, so it hardly matters.

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Originally Posted by Fyraltari

Durkon original recipe loved is patron Thor with all his heart (in a stricly heterosexual-buddy-kind of way), but if Durkon putting others before himself means Count Durkula is a selfish unlegitimate offspring it should mean that the Low Priest of Hel has nothing but scorn for [his mistress], should it not ?

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My guess is that he has nothing but scorn for Thor, not Hel.

I asked why Malack worships Nergal, rather than some other deity, back when the reveal of how vampirism works in OotS first happened, and the Giant basically said, "He could have continued worshipping a god who despised him and wouldn't grant him any spells, or he could go with the one who would let him keep his power". The same applies to Durkula, I think--what god other than Hel would want him and would grant him his spells? So, it's kind of a moot point whether he's loyal or not, because he's not going to go against the person who provides his power.

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Originally Posted by factotum

The same applies to Durkula, I think--what god other than Hel would want him and would grant him his spells? So, it's kind of a moot point whether he's loyal or not, because he's not going to go against the person who provides his power.

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What about Loki?

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Originally Posted by martianmister

What about Loki?

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What about him? Him being evil doesn't mean he's OK with undead, and it especially doesn't mean he's OK with them to the extent of having one as a cleric.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html
Hel is the key to getting the revenge Durkula craves.

He could worship Nergal...

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Originally Posted by factotum

I asked why Malack worships Nergal, rather than some other deity, back when the reveal of how vampirism works in OotS first happened, and the Giant basically said, "He could have continued worshipping a god who despised him and wouldn't grant him any spells, or he could go with the one who would let him keep his power". The same applies to Durkula, I think--what god other than Hel would want him and would grant him his spells? So, it's kind of a moot point whether he's loyal or not, because he's not going to go against the person who provides his power.

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There are options. He doesn't actually need a god - he could choose to worship the Negative Energy Plane, or vampirism... or ROCKS!

(Yes, trying to provide atheistic options for clerics in a setting where gods are provably real and clerics' magic comes directly and personally from a god is weird as hell. But there it is!)

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Originally Posted by Reboot

(Yes, trying to provide atheistic options for clerics in a setting where gods are provably real and clerics' magic comes directly and personally from a god is weird as hell. But there it is!)

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I don't know, I think that atheism makes more sense in a world where an eternal-reward style afterlife is a proven fact and some "gods" are well known to be ascended mortals. The belief that the gods are ALL actually no more than very powerful mortal souls seems likely enough. The gods say that they created the universe, (which seems like a capital-G God thing to do) but we really only have their word for that...

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

I don't know, I think that atheism makes more sense in a world where an eternal-reward style afterlife is a proven fact and some "gods" are well known to be ascended mortals. The belief that the gods are ALL actually no more than very powerful mortal souls seems likely enough. The gods say that they created the universe, (which seems like a capital-G God thing to do) but we really only have their word for that...

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Sure, that's a perfectly valid viewpoint for a wizard, sorcerer, fighter, bard, etc to take - accept the power of these beings, but reject their divinity.

But for a cleric? Divine powers are the powers of these beings. It feels like a cheat to be able to worship a concept or physical object and expect them to grant those powers. It's like wanting a wooden kendama, but rejecting the idea that wood comes from trees and saying you should be able to get wood by refining and polymerising oil.

Hmm, in OOTS terms it sounds like an accidental backdoor to accessing divine magic via the domain agreement...

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Originally Posted by Reboot

(Yes, trying to provide atheistic options for clerics in a setting where gods are provably real and clerics' magic comes directly and personally from a god is weird as hell. But there it is!)

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It's workable enough.

The vampire isn't a mirror opposite; he's Durkon, bit on a really bad day. Sort of like reverse Berrocca.

Also, as Evil Earthworm Jim said when a similar argument was made, 'stop being so literal minded'

Or as :roy: puts it: "Two things need to be almost the same except for one or two factors to be opposite!"

It is absolutely true that, if all clerical magic comes directly and personally from a god, it should logically be impossible to get clerical magic without getting it directly and personally from a god. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that clerical magic need not come directly and personally from a god; assuming as an unquestioned premise that it must seems to have no purpose except to point and go "look at the goofy rules!" without actually being justified in so doing.

As I see it, D&D gods tend to draw their powers from impersonating some principle. D&D pantheons are often based on the "evil god of murder" / "godess of fire" specialist gods (with an exclusion priciple working : You don't get another "god of magic" until the previous one bites the dust), rather than the more fuzzy "god who was a sorcerer bad guy, wielded fire and murdered/tricked some other members of the pantheon" that is found in historical pantheons. Worshipping them is a way to access the energy of these principles.

Atheistic clerics simply skip the middleman, and find/learn a direct access to the source.