Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

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Originally Posted by Cikomyr2

Someone else said you are to be executed for crossing the border,

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What makes this particular claim more puzzling, to me, is that Ralof says the ambush was sprung "just outside Darkwater Crossing".

I've been to Darkwater Crossing, and it is nowhere near the border.

Another thing that's never addressed is why Ulfric was trying to cross the border. You'd think, as the very-high-profile leader of one faction in a civil war, he'd want to stay in the country.

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Originally Posted by Cikomyr2

You know a major plot point that is never addressed? The Greybeards' future. Because theres FOUR of them and their ONE AND ONLY RECRUIT left them 20 years ago to go and play war.

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Meh. We don't really know anything about the Greybeards or their Way. For all we know, they might have every expectation of living another 200 years. And also (as far as we know) there's no particular significance to the number of them, no reason why High Hrothgar couldn't operate with two or twelve Greybeards inside.

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Originally Posted by veti

Another thing that's never addressed is why Ulfric was trying to cross the border.

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I think he was going from Riften back to Windhelm?

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Originally Posted by Errorname

I think he was going from Riften back to Windhelm?

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Huh? What does that have to do with Helgen / the Falkreath border? It's a straight line north from Riften to Windhelm...

People seem to be interpreting things as Ulfric being caught in an ambush at the border, I don't think this is the case. The ambush is meant to have happened at Darkwater Crossing according to Ralof, located in Eastmarch well north of the border. It's also a long way to Helgen from there, and not adjacent to any Imperial held territory (Whiterun had not yet declared a side,) so the logistics of the ambush and the prisoner caravan make no sense.


Lokir got caught up in the raid somehow despite not being a Stormcloak, presumably because he's not resident in Darkwater and the Imperials just arrested everyone they couldn't account for as being there for legitimate civilian reasons.

How the Dragonborn got caught up in things is really unclear. You're meant to have been crossing the border into Skyrim and walked into the ambush and been grabbed by mistake... while in southern Eastmarch, ages from the border with Cyrodiil. You could be coming in from Morrowind instead of Cyrodiil, but that border is still a good distance away, and unless you were climbing the mountains the only ways into Skyrim along that border are at the coastline by Windhelm and down past Riften. I guess it is technically possible you were entering Skyrim as the convoy was passing along the road on the southern border and they just decided to knock you out and arrest you because you might be trying to free Ulfric, but really it just doesn't make sense.

Since Darkwater Crossing isn't established on the map until Skyrim, I think it's possible that it was originally meant to be closer to the border than it was?

Probably, as I understand it Skyrim's development wasn't exactly smooth. Stuff being put somewhere in an early draft or storyboard and then not being there in the actual game seems quite plausible to me.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

Probably, as I understand it Skyrim's development wasn't exactly smooth. Stuff being put somewhere in an early draft or storyboard and then not being there in the actual game seems quite plausible to me.

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That's the understatement of the century.

The Companions clearly were the result of a rush last minute job and terrible pacing. Also still wondering why their werewolf status isnt an open secret, since guards can literally tell you you smell of wet fur if you became a werewolf.

Jorrvaskr must stink of dog/wolf. They should have had at least some wardogs all around the place to obscure this obvious tell.

We never learn who the Silver hands are. Why they arent just Vigilante of Stendar, instead of a bandit faction with silver swords.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

Probably, as I understand it Skyrim's development wasn't exactly smooth. Stuff being put somewhere in an early draft or storyboard and then not being there in the actual game seems quite plausible to me.

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From a Doylist point of view it sounds like the two dialogues, the one in the opening scene referencing crossing the border and the one later on that references Darkwater Crossing, were written by different people who had limited knowledge of what the other side was doing then. The part about crossing the border makes more sense with the physical location the opening scene takes place in, which the writer probably knew, but the other writer either had no idea about the circumstances of the Imperial ambush, or had no idea where Darkwater Crossing was supposed to be and somehow thought it was in that area of the border. Because yeah, trying to put the two together makes zero sense.

Ignoring the whole border business and focusing just on the Darkwater Crossing ambush makes some sense with Ulfric's movements, since it's on the way from Riften to Windhelm (and doesn't require answering the question of what the hell was the leader of an insurgent faction doing outside of Skyrim), but as you said above, it makes no sense at all with the logistics of moving the convoy all the way to Helgen. And, if you throw out the "trying to cross the border" thing, as flimsy as that is, it leaves us with no explanation of why the Dragonborn was captured...

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Originally Posted by SirKazum

Ignoring the whole border business and focusing just on the Darkwater Crossing ambush makes some sense with Ulfric's movements, since it's on the way from Riften to Windhelm (and doesn't require answering the question of what the hell was the leader of an insurgent faction doing outside of Skyrim), but as you said above, it makes no sense at all with the logistics of moving the convoy all the way to Helgen. And, if you throw out the "trying to cross the border" thing, as flimsy as that is, it leaves us with no explanation of why the Dragonborn was captured...

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It's easy to imagine that if Imperials captured Ulfric in the Rift they'd want to move along the southern mountain pass into Falkreath hold, because the other way would take them deeper into Stormcloak territory. That at least, I buy. It just doesn't mesh with the caught trying to cross the border part.

The whole thing would kind of make sense if the Rift was part of the Imperial loyalists rather than the Stormcloaks, in which case the Empire launching an ambush at Darkwater Crossing would actually make sense, it's a prominent location in southern Eastmarch that Ulfric would conceivably visit as part of the war or his duties as Jarl, and the Dragonborn could get caught up crossing the into Eastmarch rather than into Skyrim itself.

Say for example that Lokir and the Dragonborn are both staying at an inn in Darkwater on their respective journeys (I don't think there is an inn in Darkwater, but bear with me), Ulfric and his men arrive, make small talk, check in with the locals. Liege lord doing his customary duties type of thing. Lokir tries to steal a horse and gets caught by the Stormcloaks, then the Empire ambushes while everyone's distracted and take everyone who isn't a resident of Darkwater captive, Lokir gets dragged along because the Empire soldiers making the arrests just grab everyone in or near a stormcloak uniform.. Dragonborn gets knocked out in the chaos, with no one to speak up for them they get bundled up with the Stormcloaks and don't wake up until the approach to Helgen, after which point everyone else has been interrogated and identified, hence not being on the list. In order to avoid Stormcloaks making raids on the roads approaching Riften the prisoner convoy instead loops around the mountain to Helgen, the next nearest significant fortified town.


I do sometimes think Riften feels more like it should be an Imperial town, largely because of Maven and implicit trade connections to the Empire, but that would leave the Stormcloaks with Hjaalmarch, which is a minor hold not a major one, which then makes the Civil War imbalanced with the holds as they wound up being implemented, and I think it's rather apparent they wanted them to be basically even until the deciding event of Whiterun to reflect the idea of a stalemate. Just a pet theory of mine, but the opening might have made sense with a different distribution of starting holds.

I mean, having the Civil War be unbalanced is not a bad idea.

On one side you could have many holds openly declaring for the Empire but they are plenty of grumbling by the locals, and they arent exactly super eager to send soldiers to fight.

The Stormcloaks have fewer holds, and are badly outnumbered, but they have much less problem ruling their lands.

Either case, you can have cool sequence of diplomatic missions about quelling dissent for the Empire side or triggering an uprising for the Stormcloaks. Why does both sides have to mirror each others?

Having it be a mirror match is a quick way to reinforce the idea of a stalemate, and is easier to balance the ceasefire summit around.

I think there were other ideas, stuff that gave both sides more of a solid identity, but because they couldn't get the core mechanics of the Civil War to work they wound up just throwing together something simple but functional as the deadline approached.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

Having it be a mirror match is a quick way to reinforce the idea of a stalemate, and is easier to balance the ceasefire summit around.

I think there were other ideas, stuff that gave both sides more of a solid identity, but because they couldn't get the core mechanics of the Civil War to work they wound up just throwing together something simple but functional as the deadline approached.

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One day I'll transform Skyrim in a tabletop RPG setting and it'll be intricate, with actual interlinked plot points.

With blackjacks. And hookers.

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Originally Posted by Cikomyr2

One day I'll transform Skyrim in a tabletop RPG setting and it'll be intricate, with actual interlinked plot points.

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I have come to believe that if you are worldbuilding for an RPG setting, a Civil War is your best goddamn friend. It's easy to write, has an immediately comprehensible core that can support as much depth and complexity as you would want and it justifies where all these goddamn bandits are coming from.

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Originally Posted by Errorname

I have come to believe that if you are worldbuilding for an RPG setting, a Civil War is your best goddamn friend. It's easy to write, has an immediately comprehensible core that can support as much depth and complexity as you would want and it justifies where all these goddamn bandits are coming from.

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And even with Skyrim, you can stick to the more simple of plot that your PCs want to follow. Even if its "I know this Daedric artifact is here" I'll go "sure, explain to my why your character know that, and if you want to travel there and try to do the quest, I'm game" :smallbiggrin:

Just beware seeking out the Daedra.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

Having it be a mirror match is a quick way to reinforce the idea of a stalemate, and is easier to balance the ceasefire summit around.

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And to be a bit more cynical, it also allows devs to reuse the exact same campaign for both sides, changing just the sprites of the people involved and a few lines of dialogue...

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Originally Posted by SirKazum

And to be a bit more cynical, it also allows devs to reuse the exact same campaign for both sides, changing just the sprites of the people involved and a few lines of dialogue...

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So the Civil War campaign is sloppy as all hell but it is absolutely not the same campaign being reused for both sides. Same core mechanics but you are doing different quests for every side, it's just that all those quests are very simple and formulaic.

I pick Empire. The Stormcloaks are A: Aided by the Thalmor, B: Racist against non-Nords of EVERY stripe, and C: Betrayed the Forsworn. Also, the Empire has better looking armors.

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Originally Posted by Jurai

I pick Empire. The Stormcloaks are A: Aided by the Thalmor, B: Racist against non-Nords of EVERY stripe, and C: Betrayed the Forsworn. Also, the Empire has better looking armors.

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The Stormcloaks are the only soldiers who will actually fight against the Thalmor. Imperials will side with them, if they see the fight break out.

Ralof says: "What the rebels like to forget is that the Empire is what's keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim". Yeah, right. Bang up job they're making of that.

Also, you can't accuse Stormcloaks of "betraying" the Forsworn, because they never had any agreement to begin with. It was the Empire who betrayed the Stormcloaks, on that occasion.

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Originally Posted by SirKazum

Ignoring the whole border business and focusing just on the Darkwater Crossing ambush makes some sense with Ulfric's movements, since it's on the way from Riften to Windhelm

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Only if you take a needlessly roundabout route. The most obvious and direct road between the cities - goes nowhere near Darkwater Crossing.

Thought: there is a fort, whose name escapes me right now, a little to the west of Darkwater, populated by dead Stormcloaks and live necromancers. Maybe it was the Imperials who killed the garrison, as part of preparing their ambush for Ulfric, and the mages moved in when they moved out.

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Originally Posted by Jurai

I pick Empire. The Stormcloaks are aided by the Thalmor

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The Stormcloaks do suck, and they are unwittingly playing right into the Thalmor's hands, but the Empire are also getting completely punked by the Thalmor. Maybe more embarrassingly. Ulfric is trying to fight them but he's too stupid to realize he's giving them exactly what they want, but the Empire thinks that in order to accomplish their long term goal of defeating the Thalmor they need to give the Thalmor everything they want in the short term and enough internal access to the Empire to completely undermine it from within.

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Originally Posted by Jurai

Also, the Empire has better looking armors.

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Well now, that's subjective.

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Originally Posted by veti

Only if you take a needlessly roundabout route. The most obvious and direct road between the cities - goes nowhere near Darkwater Crossing.

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I mean, it's the slightly longer route, but if Ulfric wanted to hit a spot along the way, such as the Shrine of Talos or the should be Stormcloak controlled Fort Amol, or if he perhaps wanted to avoid a spot on the more direct route because his spies suspected an ambush, it's not that much of a detour.

People don't always take the most obvious and direct route.

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Originally Posted by veti

Thought: there is a fort, whose name escapes me right now, a little to the west of Darkwater, populated by dead Stormcloaks and live necromancers. Maybe it was the Imperials who killed the garrison, as part of preparing their ambush for Ulfric, and the mages moved in when they moved out.

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If you run through on an Imperial Civil War playthrough you clear it out ahead of the Battle of Windhelm and the Stormcloaks have retaken it, so it's presumably a Stormcloak controlled fort that got temporarily taken over by brigands before being reclaimed.

While there is an element of ethnonationalism to the Stormcloaks, i dont remember having seen examples of Stormcloaks actually implementing racist policies or racist demeanor. They seem to be focused on having sovereignty over their territory (the people of Skyrim should make choices for themselves, not merely obey Cyrodill).

The main scene that convince people that the Stormcloaks are racists is the opening scene when you enter Windhelm. But people usually dont realize that:

1- the two people haranging the Dunmer are not Stormcloak soldiers themselves. They are a beggar and a drunk.
2- the main grievance they throw at the Dunmer is that "they dont join the Stormcloak". For an alleged Nord supremacist faction they are would be happy to have Dunmer join them
3- the situation of the Grey Quarter is a Windhelm problem, not a "Stormcloak" problem. The city accepted a large, large quantities of Dunmer refugees when their nation where in a time of crisis, two hundred years ago and they have stayed since.

So when the Dunmer replies that the civil war which is about Skyrim's self-determination, "is not their fight", i think they are making a statement that they owe nothing to the people who welcomed them to their home and they feel no attachment to the land that welcomed them.

(*Also lets not forget that Morrowind Dumners are xenophobic, arrogant, manipulators and Daedra worshippers. And slavers. It's their culture, but they arent the nicest people in the block.).

Finally, if the justification for the Dumner situation in Windhelm was purely racist, then why does Windhelm have the largest Altmer diaspora in all of Skyrim. There are more Altmer NPCs in Windhelm than anywhere else in the entire game world, but sure let's assume their entire faction/city is just Nord Supremacist.

Also remember that the Argonian ban in Windhelm is because there is so much bad blood between Argonians and Dunmer, because the Dunmer enslaved the Argonians for millenia. Even if the city gets under Imperial rule, the ban doesn't get lifted FOR THE ARGONIAN OWN PROTECTION.

Not to say there aren't some terribly racist sentiments against Dunmers existing in Windhelm. But for me, its characteristic to any large society that has an insular community living within them. You see it in the real world; its like how people started hating on Italians or Jews or Irish when they had their own neighborhoods.

Also, im 50% convinced one of the Dunmer in Windhelm is actually an imperial agent trying to stirr up trouble and inflame racial tensions to weaken Ulfric.

All of this just indicates to me that Ulfric.. is not a good administrator of his hold. Hes big on fighting, and ideals, but when it comes to the day to day boring administrative stuff he doesnt know what he's doing, because he spent his entire life either as a monk-in-training, a warrior of his warband (in service to the Empire or not) or in a Thalmor prison (which he was detained twice, for YEARS each time). He was only released the 2nd time because his father died and he was the heir of Windhelm.

(We can always have speculation as to why the heir of Windhelm was sent to the Greybeards, or why Ulfric's father never saw fit to appoint another heir).

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Originally Posted by Cikomyr2

While there is an element of ethnonationalism to the Stormcloaks, i dont remember having seen examples of Stormcloaks actually implementing racist policies or racist demeanor. They seem to be focused on having sovereignty over their territory (the people of Skyrim should make choices for themselves, not merely obey Cyrodill).

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Hang out more in Windhelm then. The Dunmer are forced into a ghetto (which racists wander around at night and harass them for not helping the Stormcloaks) and Argonians arent even allowed past the docks. The Dunmer also have plenty of stories about how Ulfric refuses to help Dunmer refugee caravans being attacked by bandits (or "bandits").

This is the capital of the Stormcloaks. Ulfric lives and rules here. These are policies that he has, at least tacitly, endorsed as acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Keltest

Hang out more in Windhelm then. The Dunmer are forced into a ghetto (which racists wander around at night and harass them for not helping the Stormcloaks) and Argonians arent even allowed past the docks. The Dunmer also have plenty of stories about how Ulfric refuses to help Dunmer refugee caravans being attacked by bandits (or "bandits").

This is the capital of the Stormcloaks. Ulfric lives and rules here. These are policies that he has, at least tacitly, endorsed as acceptable.

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Wow its almost like i actually address these points in my post and you didnt even bother reading them.

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Originally Posted by Cikomyr2

Wow its almost like i actually address these points in my post and you didnt even bother reading them.

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Frankly, yes, I stopped after the first example of "Well it's not REALLY racism." You're making excuses.

Yes, it is racism, and yes, it's Ulfric's policy.

I do think it's an interesting point that Windhelm's Altmer population is both large and do not share the Dunmer's complaints, but there's no real argument that the Argonians and Dunmer aren't discriminated against.

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Originally Posted by Errorname

I do think it's an interesting point that Windhelm's Altmer population is both large and do not share the Dunmer's complaints, but there's no real argument that the Argonians and Dunmer aren't discriminated against.

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I assume we're talking relatively here, because from my recall theres only 3 Altmer in windhelm, one of whom is married to a Nord and one of whom is a thief who all but admits the Nords were hard on her for being an elf too, except she bribed them to get them to stop.

Niranye doesn't exactly admit to bribery directly stopping the racism, but certainly implies she greased the wheels of some influential people who put a stop to any harassment of her. Less a case of paying Rolf to piss off, more a case of paying someone to tell Rolf to piss off on her behalf. Or earning favours by smuggling or something. Corruption either way.

She also implies the Nords are racist to anyone who isn't a Nord rather than to elves in particular, but the Imperials in town seem to have no issues while the Dunmer and Argonians do, and she herself is the only Altmer to address the matter.


Ulunil and Arivanya, the stablemaster and his wife, make no mention of racism. Not that they have much to say, but then who does in Skyrim?

Nurelion, the alchemist, also makes no mention of it.

It might be less of a case of being racist towards the Dunmer because they aren't Nords, and more because they arrived as refugees, and the racism directed at the Argonians being the fairly common anti-Beastfolk prejudice found throughout Tamriel.

There's also that one Dunmer who owns a farm outside the city, who seems to think the Dunmer are being discriminated against because they aren't doing anything to earn respect.

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Originally Posted by Keltest

Frankly, yes, I stopped after the first example of "Well it's not REALLY racism." You're making excuses.

Yes, it is racism, and yes, it's Ulfric's policy.

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What great discussion fodder, admitting to just not read what the other person is writing.

Yhea, the racist organisation is giving grief to minorities for NOT joining their organisation. That makes complete sense.

Also, there's literally no difference of experience between playing as an Elf wanting to have in the Stormcloak as any other non-Nord. And any character joining the Stormcloaks are given the exact same quest to prove themselves. And nobody bats an eye about a non-Nord willing to join the Stormcloaks with the exception of this question: "why would a foreigner want to join the Stormcloaks", and the answer you can give is "Skyrim is my home".

Its not about race, its about actually calling Skyrim your home, and the people of Skyrim wanting to be governed by the people of Skyrim. Race plays a role in so far that most non-nord will not find the harsh climate of Skyrim to their taste. But lots of people do.

Stormcloaks are, first and foremost, about "Skyrim stop being governed by far away people". There is plenty of racist, xenophobic Nords.. everywhere in Skyrim. Its hardly proper to the Stormcloaks.

What about Riften, the other major Stormcloak hold? Big pro-Stormcloak Jarl there, and yet she rules over a (corrupt) integrated multicultural city.

Its almost like the designers tried to give human failings to individual holds. Again, racism against Dunmer is definetly a thing, and it is a thing in Windhelm. But Windhelm has also done more to help the Dunmer than any other Holds of Skyrim combined. Where are the dunmer refugees in Solitude? In Markath? In Riften?

There are none, because they weren't welcome.

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Originally Posted by Cikomyr2

Yhea, the racist organisation is giving grief to minorities for NOT joining their organisation. That makes complete sense.

Also, there's literally no difference of experience between playing as an Elf wanting to have in the Stormcloak as any other non-Nord. And any charavter

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People keep bringing up that last part as if it matters. Bethesda no longer has the balls to have NPCs discriminate based on race and choices. That's it. that's the only reason.

Windhelm is a dirty, mismanaged ****hole on its best day. The non-human races are largely oppressed or absent. Argonians and Khajiit can't even enter the city AT ALL, Dunmer are forced to live in a ghetto, Altmer get by primarily on the privilege of money, and Bosmer and Orcs are entirely absent from the city as I recall.

That's the paradigm the Stormcloaks want everywhere, because that's "Nord beliefs" in a nutshell. Their greatest cultural hero is known almost solely for his capacity at slaying elves, and their primary god is the god of HUMANS, which has created a culture that shuns the non-humans. Some of these cultural practices have their roots in legitimate reasons (Ysgramor slew elves because he was fighting elf tyranny) but maintaining them hundreds of years past the time they were relevant is sheer racism. The root cause no longer matters.

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Originally Posted by Cikomyr2

What about Riften, the other major Stormcloak hold? Big pro-Stormcloak Jarl there, and yet she rules over a (corrupt) integrated multicultural city.

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The corruption being the rleevant part. Maven doesn't believe in Stormcloak ideals, she aligns with the Stormcloaks because she doesn't wanna pay taxes.

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Originally Posted by Cikomyr2

Its almost like the designers tried to give human failings to individual holds. Again, racism against Dunmer is definetly a thing, and it is a thing in Windhelm. But Windhelm has also done more to help the Dunmer than any other Holds of Skyrim combined. Where are the dunmer refugees in Solitude? In Markath? In Riften?

There are none, because they weren't welcome.

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There are plenty of Dunmer NPCs in the other cities clustered near the border with Morrowind. You just don't notice them as much because they're integrated into the population. Go ahead and do a count of Riften's Dunmer NPCs, compare it to Windhelm's numbers. They're similar.

Solitude and Markarth are at the ass-end of nowhere comparatively, literally the opposite end of the country. Skyrim is big (in lore). Of course the refugees are primarily going to end up...close to where they ran from.

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Originally Posted by Rynjin

Windhelm is a dirty, mismanaged ****hole on its best day. The non-human races are largely oppressed or absent. Argonians and Khajiit can't even enter the city AT ALL, Dunmer are forced to live in a ghetto, Altmer get by primarily on the privilege of money, and Bosmer and Orcs are entirely absent from the city as I recall.

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So Khajit are banned from all cities, period. Even Imperial ones, not sure why you bring them up.

Argonians are banned because they cause trouble with the Dunmer, because of the slavery history between the races. Please, again, note that Ulfric's imperial replacement does not change the policy

Dunmer live in a ghetto, that is 100% true. But they are effectively the descendant of the refugees that came in drove from Morrowind 200 years ago, and they settled en masse in Windhelm where no other place would take them. Yes, there is racial resentment, just like that sort of racial resentment about foreigner refugees happen.. everywhere in real life. You claim that the reason the Dunmer have lived in a ghetto for the past 200 years is because Ulfric Stormcloak made it so, in the 10 years he reigned over Windhelm?

Windhelm is a badly managed city, 100% agree with you. And i gave my argument as to why that is: Ulfric was never taught how to administrate his city, so he is basically focusing on what he knows (rhetoric and warfare).

Bosmer and Orcs.. i dont really remember them being that much present elsewhere in the cities.

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Originally Posted by Rynjin

That's the paradigm the Stormcloaks want everywhere, because that's "Nord beliefs" in a nutshell. Their greatest cultural hero is known almost solely for his capacity at slaying elves, and their primary god is the god of HUMANS, which has created a culture that shuns the non-humans. Some of these cultural practices have their roots in legitimate reasons (Ysgramor slew elves because he was fighting elf tyranny) but maintaining them hundreds of years past the time they were relevant is sheer racism. The root cause no longer matters.

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Now this is an argument with some proper weight! Yes, agreed. A lot, lot of Nord culture emphasize their human roots, worship of pro-human heroes, etc..

But this is a massive indictment of Nord culture as a whole.

I do not think any worshipper of Shor is necessarily pro-human. They just acknowledge and respect their creator.