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I was wanting to know what would be the best way to make a Jedi character for a normal 3.5 D&D game. What classes would be the way to go? My first thoughts were Psychic Warrior, Soul Knife, or something from the Tome of Battle. Any ideas? I was planning on just using a normal bastard sword as a lightsaber. I was hoping for Force like abilities as well.
all help appreciated
Fizz
Personally I'd use Psychic Warrior. That covers most of your Jedi-like abilities through your power selection and psionic feats (Deep Impact, etc.), and still makes you a pretty good melee fighter despite your 3/4 BAB. At high enough levels just spring for a brilliant energy weapon and you'll be all set!
Why Bastard Sword? Seriously, it's like the worst weapon in the books. Anyways, since the magical abilities are the principal factor of what makes one a "jedi" and the ability to block laser bolts with a sword is just a nice bonus, you could actually try a Warlock focusing on Eldritch Glaive (just call it a sword instead). You even get Foresight on higher levels, and can use all your abilities all day while throwing things around the room.
You could combine that with a Warblade-dip into Jade Phoenix Mage to gain abilities like blocking Lasers (or anything incoming really) with your sword. Of course, Jade Phoenix Mage's schools are totally effed so you'll mostly gain the initiator level and probably have to dip more levels in Warblade to truly gain the interesting abilities. Mostly, you'd just have to handwave a bunch of prerequisites (replace the "ability to cast 2nd level spells" with "3rd arcane caster level"), reflavour the schools and state that arcane advancement gives you full Warlock advancement.
Anyways, on the other hand, a singleclassed Psychic Warrior with a Crystal-weapon (potentially going into Psychic Weapon Master or something) could pull this off with all the Precognitions, Presciences and such presenting the senses of a Jedi and even packing some ranged attack abilities. The downside is that the principal Psychic Warrior-powers (Expansion, Claws of the X, etc.) are totally out there for a Jedi. Ardent is another decent option, with something like the Conflict-mantle. Ardent/Warblade/JPM adapted into Psionics would work out pretty well.
Master of the Unseen Hand.
So go with the non-"principal" powers. They're still pretty decent, even if they don't rock as hard as Expansion/Claws of the Beast. Especially if Complete Psionic is fair game. For example, the following build seems pretty feasible to me (I'm not bothering to waste a feat on Bastard Sword EWP - I have no problem with a longsword as lightsaber):Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
Human
Level 1: Hidden Talent, Speed of Thought, Skill Focus (concentration); Precognition, Inertial Armor
Level 2: Linked Power; Adrenaline Boost
Level 3: Power Attack; Urban Strider
Level 4: Hustle
Level 5: Psionic Meditation; Metaphysical Weapon
Level 6: Martial Study (Action before Thought); Detect Hostile Intent
Level 7: Body Purification
Level 8: Cleave; Defensive Precognition
Level 9: Expanded Knowledge; Telekinetic Boomerang, Psionic Suggestion
Level 10: Psionic Freedom of Movement
Level 11: Martial Study (Insightful Strike); Prowess
Level 12: Expanded Knowledge; Telekinetic Thrust, Psionic Lion's Charge
Level 13: Perfect Riposte
Level 14: Expanded Knowledge; Offensive Precognition, Psychic Reformation
Level 15: Martial Study (Ruby Nightmare Blade); Adapt Body
Level 16: Personal Mind Blank
Level 17: Expanded Knowledge; Dispelling Buffer, Schism
Level 18: Martial Stance (Hearing the Air); Energy Adaptation
Level 19: Inconstant Location
Level 20: Expanded Knowledge; Suspend Life, Power Resistance
Ardent might be better, though, just because self-buffing tends to be a strategy that eats up your PP quickly.
This is my point, the primary PW powers are the primary since they get you a lot of bang for relatively little buck. When you suddenly can't use those for flavour reasons, the remaining powers lose a lot of their flair, as the size-modifiers, synchronities (which is perfectly in line with a jedi though) and claws form the core of a functional PW. So yea, I think Ardent would be a better fit with better multiclassing (manifester level-based caps instead of class level-based; Practiced Manifester: Ardent makes a multiclassed Ardent very forgiving), more PPs and a more customizable power list while still maintaining medium BAB and access to the combat abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74
What makes you say that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
Just lift what's in here: Quick, easy, painless and official.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzban
j/k'ing... j/k'ing... :smallsmile:
I would ask your DM if he would allow you to use a Mindblade in place of the Monks Unarmed Strike, and have it do all your Monk abilities (Flurry of Blows, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc). Also, ask him if he will allow it to do damage equal to your unarmed strike, but you aren't allowed to throw it.
Then, if/when you hit epic, you can pick up such feats as Exceptional deflection (Deflect all ranged attacks), Infinite Deflection, and Reflect Arrows (Return the Ranged Attack to the person who started it).
For the force powers, I'd recommend maybe a dip into Sorceror and then Master of the Unseen Hand. Otherwise, perhaps pay the LA to have some ghost abilities, but not BE a ghost.
If your DM is willing to work with you on this, it can be done easily. If not, then it's a lot harder.
The idea of using a Warlock with the Eldritch Glaive is a good one though, especially seeing you can get Repelling Blast, Entropic Warding, Darkwall, and so on. Probably a lot easier than my method, but it means that you'd be looking at either getting your DM to waive the Chaotic requirement from the class, and then change the Glaive to a Sword.
Two-handed, it's a martial two-handed 1d10 weapon (you could instead be wielding Greatsword with otherwise exact same stats except an average of 1.5 points more damage). If you blow Exotic Weapon Proficiency on it, the one single thing it gives you over a Longsword (one-handed martial weapon) is one size larger damage die (so an average of 1 point more damage).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shpadoinkle
Since wielding weapons one-handed is pretty rarely smart to start with and blowing a feat for a whole 1 point of damage is even more rarely smart, it's just a waste of a feat. So either it's a strictly worse Greatsword or a really bad use of a feat, take your pick. Seriously, just pick up a Longsword if you want a one-handed sword. I don't get why new players seem to gravitate towards Bastard Sword; is it because it's an exotic weapon or something? Because pretty much the only Exotic Weapon in PHB worth spending a feat to acquire is Spiked Chain. Generally you'll want more out of your feats than small static buffs since other kinds of buffs will just do more.
Well I'm not a new player by any means. I said bastard sword from looking at a lightsaber's length and the switching from 1 to 2 handed. I know a long sword can be wielded with both hands, this idea was ever meant to be a power build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
Fizz
Seeing how he wants to create a Jedi character in 3.5 - he’s not exactly optimizing here. :smallwink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
I’m not disagreeing with you, but even optimizing gets boring after a few runs. I had a friend who ran an "optimized" campaign. The same thing over and over again, gets stale fast. They started throwing more expansion books to add color, but it only made it worst.
Flavor sometimes feels better than efficiency.
Still, Bastard Swords? I mean, what's wrong with the good ol' Longsword? It seems like a pretty good Lightsaber-equivalent, no? And I mean, I realize he's not optimizing, but there's a difference between a functional character and a crappy character. I mean, it doesn't look like he'd be getting a whole lot of bonus feats and most of those would be used to enhance the character's mood; I find it hard to believe there'd be a free feat for EWP: Bastard Sword.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nargrakhan
EDIT: And yeah, the Bastard Sword-comment wasn't specifically directed at you, more just a general amazement towards the fact that whenever I read about a melee character build from a less experienced player, it seems to start with "using a Bastard Sword". Somehow, it seems to be an iconic weapon or something; I was always expecting for that to be the Longsword, not the Bastard Sword so I'm just wondering if people actually find Bastard Sword more of a "knight's sword" than a Longsword.
Lightsabers are modeled, size and style-wise, after katana. Katana are equivalent to bastard swords in D&D, so.
And yeah, psychic warriors. Fits well with Force-augmented combat.
Thing is, Psychic Warrior has no way to use the fancy Force powers like Lightning, Choke or even Push. A Psion or even Wizard would fit that concept a lot better. Besides, why isn't the Psychic Warrior wearing armour? The latter two at least have a good reason.
Check out my build above, though it's still a rough draft (I'm working on optimizing it more).Quote:
Originally Posted by Flickerdart
Expanded Knowledge is an easy way to do all the stuff you're talking about. Since I was thinking Light Side, I neglected to pick up Energy Bolt or a choke-equivalent power (e.g. Death Urge or Psychic Crush), but I included Telekinetic Thrust. Expanded Knowledge also nicely takes care of the Mind Trick aspect (Psionic Suggestion, maybe others too).
And why no armor? Because Inertial Armor is dang good for all your armor needs. When you have it, all day, every day, why bother with something that will give you an armor check penalty instead of letting you be free and acrobatic? (Not to mention, if you go with Inertial Armor instead of heavy armor, you can get Padded Armor +1 with all kinds of cool enhancements like Soulfire and Heavy Fortification for a relatively low cost. If your DM allows adding that stuff to a magical robe instead of Padded Armor, go for that, and add in a Monk's Belt too.)
EDIT @ Eldariel: Right with you. I always thought the longsword was more iconic, and can't understand the obsession with bastard swords. Though I can sort of understand it for a Jedi, I guess. Those lightsaber hilts do tend to be long enough for two hands.
You don't have to sound so elitist. The bastard sword is a pretty good weapon. Yes, +1 average damage is a lot considering I tend to roll better on dice with more numbers for some reason. A bastard sword is a good choice no matter what the case. But is it always worth the feat? No. Not all classes benefit from it. But if I'm going for a sword and board paladin, chances are I'm going to go with the bastard sword. Better damage, straight up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
And yes, it's ridiculous to build a character based solely on averages. So, ruling out the bastard sword because it "deals only one more" is ridiculous, as that would mean the best weapons by your points would be the short sword, and the great sword.
Egoist or Kineticist 10/SRD Slayer 10 seems fine to me, if you want to go the psionics route. Same BAB as Psychic Warrior, more power selection and flexibility, and most of the PsyWar exclusive powers aren't ones that you particularly want for a Jedi (the others you can grab with Expanded Knowledge).Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
Diamond Mind Warblade or Swordsage works for a pure melee build.
... yeah, pretty much true. Except for a few special considerations (like the dagger being easy to hide and throwable, and the spiked chain having all kinds of things about it, and a Keen Rapier having a huge threat range). If you're not using any of those tricks, the short sword and greatsword really are the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiendish_Dire_Moose
In other news, my Psychic Warrior build has been updated one more time, and I think he makes a pretty verisimilar and playable Jedi.
Note that, due to the flexibility of Psychic Reformation, this is just what he looks like at Level 20; at earlier levels, his early powers can be replaced by weaker versions of some iconic powers. For example, I imagine he had Thought Shield until he could get Personal Mind Blank; then he used Reformation to replace Thought Shield. Likewise, he could have weak telekinesis (Far Hand or Control Object) before he gets Telekinetic Thrust, and weak mind tricks (Attraction or Charm) before he gets Suggestion.
For bastard swords... You'd be better off getting weapon focus (longsword) and PAing. Two-handed, that's an extra two points damage guaranteed, as opposed to one on average. Even one handed, it's the same damage boost, only it is guaranteed and can be traded for more accuracy instead.
Why not a Telepath/Illithid Slayer? The prereqs are pathetically easy to achieve. It gives full BAB and you get Psion manifesting. Telepath seems the most Jedi-ish. Then you wouldn't have to waste feats on Expanded knowledge.
Actually, most Martial and Simple weapons are pretty equal when it comes to averages (one size of damage die has about the same net effect as one point of critical range and one point of critical multiplier; as you may notice, weapons are balanced according to this guideline), which is why it's fair to choose any of the bunch without being hurt; Greataxe is only marginally worse than Greatsword and Longsword and Rapier are pretty even. It's the Exotic Weapons that suffer; you always have to burn something to learn to use one so they have to be worth that feat. Weapon Specialization gives you +2 damage for 1 feat, Exotic Weapon Proficiency +1, and Weapon Specialization is rarely worth picking over superior options. EWP: Bastard Sword is, by the same token, never worth picking unless you absolutely have picked every feat that could remotedly be useful for you at some point of the game. I mean, that Paladin of yours probably wants to learn mounted combat (which really costs 3 feats at least; all the way to Spirited Charge) for when he gets the Special Mount, and that's going to tie up the early feats pretty efficiently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiendish_Dire_Moose
But that's not really my question. My question is what draws people to Bastard Swords? Is there some kind of a mythological basis or mass media source I'm overlooking that draws people towards Bastard Swords over Longswords? Thats' what really baffles me; first time players generally go with what they consider "cool" or "awesome" and draw from their outside experiences to choose and online I've run into "Bastard Sword" every turn.
But I digress, it was meant as a short aside and has little to do with this thread anymore at this point.
Only at Level 20. Until then, your BAB's hurting. So this works if you want a very monastic Jedi, who doesn't really get out and learn to use his lightsaber until later in his career. Also, he won't ever have nearly as many feats as a PsyWarrior build, especially after blowing one on Track -- though my build ended up using most of his feats on Expanded Knowledge anyway, I guess, so maybe you don't need many feats to be a good fighter. Oh, and your build will need a high Intelligence rather than a high Wisdom, which doesn't feel as Jedi-ish to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by imperialspectre
More importantly, a lot more PP (the PsyWarrior's one weakness)Quote:
more power selection and flexibility,
Guh? To me, self-buffs with melee is kinda the iconic thing a psionic "Jedi" should be doing. And Psychic Warrior is better at that. My build uses 7 good powers that are on the PsyWarrior list, but not on the general Psion list.Quote:
and most of the PsyWar exclusive powers aren't ones that you particularly want for a Jedi (the others you can grab with Expanded Knowledge).
But hey, I guess you could see the telekinesis/mind trick/choke stuff as more iconic.
Yeah, pure Swordsage (mostly Diamond Mind, with some Shadow Hand and Setting Sun sneaked in) could make a pretty decent Jedi too. Might have to get creative with the equipment, though, to enable telekinesis stuff.Quote:
Diamond Mind Warblade or Swordsage works for a pure melee build.
Actually, as odd as it sounds, I'd actually go Monk for this, possibly monk/kensai.
Take Deflect arrows, and flavor it as deflecting with your sword.
Take Whirling Steel Strike (feat) and now a longsword is a monk weapon.
Get that longsword enchanted with Brilliant Energy and Flaming, and stick a weapon crystal of return lesser into it (so you can call it to your hand.) If you want to throw it, boost that weapon crystal up a notch.
It just looks cooler to most people. Nothing wrong with that. Everytime I play a modern RPG that has guns, everyone wants to dual wield pistols... God forbid if they know what a Tetragrammaton Cleric is. That's the whole point of playing an RPG: to have fun and be something you're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
If someone thinks burning a feat to be what they imagine to be a cool warrior is great: more power to them. It's not always about squeezing the most damage per roll. I actually like it: people are role playing a concept based on imagination, not raw numbers. Again: optimized campaigns get old quick. Same weapons. Same monsters. Same skills. Same feats. Same classes. Same races. Etc. It's like a clone army. Boring after two or three sessions of that.
When playing with people who pick subpar things, I do what they do: play a character based on an image of coolness, even if the stats don't show that. If I'm playing an uber leet, and the other three are playing subpar, its me who is ruining the fun. If I don't like that kind of gaming, I find another group. However I prefer non-metagaming. It's less predictable... and way more original.
The monk idea has promise, but that means no force powers at all. How about a Monk/Fist of Zuoken? That still gives some decent Psywar powers, psionic feats and Expanded Knowledge can fill in the telekinetic gaps.
EDIT: Personally, since real longswords are more like greatswords, I just switch the names about.
longsword is renamed bastard sword
greatsword is renamed longsword
Then I made the greatsword an exotic weapon, like the german Bidenhänder. 2d8 and reach but not against adjacent squares.
I'm asking where does that come from? What makes people consider Bastard Sword the cooler of the two?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nargrakhan
Anime. Novels. Cartoons. Movies. Etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
It's just portrayed in a positive light in the realms of fiction. In historic accounts, it had several advantages over other swords (and of course, several disadvantages). There's no "single source" of a bastard sword being so loved - just as there's no "single source" for all those mythos of the katana. It's just a massive "hodgepod of cool" that's made itself great.
It's not like the bastard sword is an inferior weapon to the longsword IRL: both blades have specific purpose and function in the history of warfare. The rule system in d20 makes it subpar - but I've seen it superior in other game systems.
If I were forced to explain it under duress (i.e. a sound judgment without deep research): the instant love for the bastard sword, most likely stems from it's IRL visual intimidation and greater damage potential. A bastard sword is larger than a longsword (sword-and-a-half as the old description goes) : it has greater reach, weighs more (thus able to punch through more protection easier), and the longer hilt mean more muscle from the wielder can be applied to each swing. Of course it’s a bit slower and not as graceful as a longsword, but that’s the intentional tradeoff between the two. It’s sorta like comparing battleships to battlecruisers: people and fictional writers love the battleship far more than the battlecruiser, despite the battlecruiser’s inherent advantages over the battleship (predominantly the speed - being able to keep up with the rest of the fleet or pursue a fleeing enemy is VERY important).
Of course RPG’s try to reflect these differences in their rule systems, but they most often fail: d20 is one of them. Right or wrong, many people view fantasy swords of European design, under three categories:
Longsword: the one handed blade that you also carry a shield with, with a hilt that can’t be used with two hands.
Bastard Sword: the larger cousin of the longsword that can barely be carried in one hand, but works with two hands.
Great Sword: the massive oversized sword that represents you're REALLY overcompensating for something – no shield at all, but overkill damage.
With those choices in their minds, they just go for the bastard.
I've played pen-and-paper RPG's in Japan: they have a massive bias for great swords and practically reject shields on a systematic basis (which is also reflected in their history and anime). They also distain full plate armor, because it ruins how they see themselves, and the general cliche that only an evil overlord wears bulky armor. Especially with the handful of girl gamers I ran across there (gotta be cute or not at all).
Hm, anime might be it. Because when comparing it to my own preconceptions, my idea for the "standard knight's suite" was Longsword + Heavy Steel Shield + Full-Plate, and that pretty much went for everyone else in the playgroup, and the only one out of the bunch you listed we weren't really into was anime. I suppose that explains quite a bit.
Also, that's a funny anecdote about the trip to Japan; maybe the system was actually designed for Japanese then since Greatsword is mechanically the best choice out of the bunch :)
Because people like to say bastard. They can get away with it more easily around people with "sensitivities" when they say bastard sword. I personally like referring to files by the proper term of bastard - flat bastard, half-bastard, round bastard, etc. - just because it makes some people gasp in shock.
Bastard bastard bastard bastard bastard bastard bastard bastard bastard bastard bastard bastard!!!!!!
It's the name. :smallwink: j/kQuote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
Seriously, though, your question basically amounts to "Why is X popular?" That isn't a question that can be easily anwered, since there isn't just one reason. Maybe you could form a commission to survey a bunch of people? At least then you'd have percentages or a pie chart or something. But really, it's like asking why anyone likes anything, and that makes it very hard to answer. A lot of people don't even know why they like the things they like, because some things are just instinctual, and maybe bastard swords are one of those things too. It's different for everyone you ask.
As for me, though I've only made one character who used a bastard sword (and that one was because a bastard sword was what we had found in the treasure), I like them because bastard sword = katana and katana = samurai awesomeness. So, by the transitive property of swordmanship, bastard sword = samurai awesomeness. :smallbiggrin: