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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
My problem with this argument is that it assumes that Rich would only ever choose a monster because its very identity as a monster of X species would be tied thematically into its overall character arc. It might be a bonus on top of otherwise meeting the conditions he needs to meet, but I don't think it is by itself enough to overcome "doesn't actually fit the extremely minimal restrictions he has to work with." when it comes to picking a monster.
"Extremely minimal restrictions" to me equals basically to "Well, I have to pick something that has two yellow eyes and it needs to have roughly the size that I painted the shadows till now".
Of course, picking a monster that specifically does NOT always have two yellow eyes would be a nice irony, and a cool "Gotcha!" moment if played right. It's the "played right" I am missing right now, because if MitD came out tomorrow and said "I always showed to eyes because I wanted to fit in so badly", I personally would consider it a hard sell. A couple of times he is lazy, a couple of times he is a little defiant, another time he soo wants to impress his "friends" to be scary, and NONE of those times he changes his eyes' appearance??
Not even when sleeping??
Coming to think of it, in his very first appearance he HAD different eyes. The first two panels he appeared in #23 he had evil-looking eyes. So maybe we should take that as a hint? I am still not convinced, but maybe we need to wait for more hints.
ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
One more thought on the two eyes thing, re the circus scene:
MitD is pretty nervous about appearing on stage in that scene (see p.83 of Start of Darkness). He has to talk himself up into it, describes a feeling in the pit of his stomach, and says afterward "Sometimes, it's hard being looked at by so many."
Given that, it would make sense for a Protean MitD to try to hold a shape even inside the darkness, not just to look the same as his friends, but also because he's actually uncomfortable with his default appearance and how people respond to it. (Even though he's constantly in darkness and people can't see him anyway-- look, he's new at this whole thinking thing.)
As an aside, I think the Protean also best explains the reactions of the goblin children in the circus scene. "You did the same thing you did every show-- stand out on the stage and get gawked at" is generally not the sort of thing that inspires cheering unless something is actually happening during that process. (It would also explain why the kids like going back every day-- you never know what you're going to get just watching a Protean.)
1. How many pictures with MitD in the circus do we get? Because if he DOES get the reactions due to changing his appearance, then this is where we should see him changing appearances, right?
2. In your last paragraph you say the goblin children like him because he changes so much.
That makes sense.
But in your first paragraph you say he does NOT change because he doesn't like how people respond to his default appearance.
Which doesn't match up - if he was happy finally finding someone who liked him - the kids - then he should now KEEP CHANGING, because that WORKED.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
There's another thing about the circus scene that makes me lean Protean: the context. Ignore the reactions, just the fact that the MitD being what it is is worth an entire sideshow. Various monsters being weird or rare would be somewhat analogous to a freak show; either they have abilities they show off, or they just have uncommon or rare physical features, but they're virtually always team shows. The MitD is explicitly told that his role is to not do anything, and just be there. Just the sheer fact that he is what he is makes a show. A lot of monsters don't really make sense for this in-context. A snake with a human face sure would be weird to look at, sure, but would a circus owner simply say to one, "eh, just exist onstage, that's enough for a solo act"? Like most things with the circus scene, this is very subjective, but I don't see most monsters being able to bring in crowds simply by standing around for a minute or so. And certainly not able to get repeat customers like Right-Eye's family; the snake with a face will look exactly like they did the first time, and the second, and so on. A Protean, though, would be practically a new experience every time.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
1. How many pictures with MitD in the circus do we get? Because if he DOES get the reactions due to changing his appearance, then this is where we should see him changing appearances, right?
Obviously we don't see MitD on stage; we see him in darkness before he takes the stage, and when we see him on stage, it's from the audience's perspective.
I feel like you expect that if it was the Protean, Rich would've dropped some huge hint about the shapeshifting by now, when that actually would have entirely given away the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
2. In your last paragraph you say the goblin children like him because he changes so much.
That makes sense.
But in your first paragraph you say he does NOT change because he doesn't like how people respond to his default appearance.
Which doesn't match up - if he was happy finally finding someone who liked him - the kids - then he should now KEEP CHANGING, because that WORKED.
I don't know how you got there from here. He found goblin kids who liked watching him change shape. So what? They're not around anymore, and the vast majority of people he meets find him weird or ugly and it makes him uncomfortable. And he doesn't like being looked at even though the kids like looking at him.
I'm guessing you haven't read Start of Darkness, because this is all pretty clear there.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peelee
There's another thing about the circus scene that makes me lean Protean: the context. Ignore the reactions, just the fact that the MitD being what it is is worth an entire sideshow. Various monsters being weird or rare would be somewhat analogous to a freak show; either they have abilities they show off, or they just have uncommon or rare physical features, but they're virtually always team shows. The MitD is explicitly told that his role is to not do anything, and just be there. Just the sheer fact that he is what he is makes a show. A lot of monsters don't really make sense for this in-context. A snake with a human face sure would be weird to look at, sure, but would a circus owner simply say to one, "eh, just exist onstage, that's enough for a solo act"? Like most things with the circus scene, this is very subjective, but I don't see most monsters being able to bring in crowds simply by standing around for a minute or so. And certainly not able to get repeat customers like Right-Eye's family; the snake with a face will look exactly like they did the first time, and the second, and so on. A Protean, though, would be practically a new experience every time.
Yep, I agree, the Protean would be the best fit for the circus scene so far!
I don't think Snake with face or other weird monster would not fit, but Protean certainly is best here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
Obviously we don't see MitD on stage; we see him in darkness before he takes the stage, and when we see him on stage, it's from the audience's perspective.
I feel like you expect that if it was the Protean, Rich would've dropped some huge hint about the shapeshifting by now, when that actually would have entirely given away the game.
Again, like I said to Pelee:
This line of reasoning reads like
"If you can't succeed (by the rules), it's ok to cheat"
Rich COULD have chosen a NON-shapeshifting monster. Or a shapeshifting monster that does NOT change ALL THE TIME, involuntarily, unless specifically trying not to.
If he chooses a monster, which has, in its description "eyes change around all the time", and then proceeds to paint "eyes always the same", without giving a clue that the visual appearance might be misleading, then that feels like cheating, to me, yes.
But I am tired arguing this point. You don't want to be convinced, I don't want to convince you.
I posted in the hope someone had an earlier monster manual entry that resolved this issue, but unfortunately no one has so far.
So, I will go back to lurking until the next interesting argument, or clue, comes up. Good night!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
I don't know how you got there from here. He found goblin kids who liked watching him change shape. So what? They're not around anymore, and the vast majority of people he meets find him weird or ugly and it makes him uncomfortable. And he doesn't like being looked at even though the kids like looking at him.
I'm guessing you haven't read Start of Darkness, because this is all pretty clear there.
I have read SoD. I was talking about what you posted. You said he didn't like how people reacted to his changing looks, when his changing looks made him friends with the Gobbo children. For me that's a dissonance, but make of that what you will.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
Again, like I said to Pelee:
This line of reasoning reads like
"If you can't succeed (by the rules), it's ok to cheat"
Rich COULD have chosen a NON-shapeshifting monster. Or a shapeshifting monster that does NOT change ALL THE TIME, involuntarily, unless specifically trying not to.
If he chooses a monster, which has, in its description "eyes change around all the time", and then proceeds to paint "eyes always the same", without giving a clue that the visual appearance might be misleading, then that feels like cheating, to me, yes.
And I think numerous explanations have been provided for why a Protean MitD's eyes wouldn't change, both Watsonian (all the stuff about fitting in and friendship and not liking people looking at him) and Doylist (if Rich wanted a Protean, he can't draw it in a way that would immediately give away the species and spoil the reveal).
It seems like you think "a species that has two yellow eyes unchanging by default" is more important than "a species that fits the themes of the character's journey and the story Rich wants to tell," and I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
I have read SoD. I was talking about what you posted. You said he didn't like how people reacted to his changing looks, when his changing looks made him friends with the Gobbo children. For me that's a dissonance, but make of that what you will.
It's not dissonant at all, and I feel like to think it so you have to stretch what I said to the point of "Literally every person MitD meets thinks he's ugly," which is a stretch to the point of dishonesty.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
I feel like you expect that if it was the Protean, Rich would've dropped some huge hint about the shapeshifting by now, when that actually would have entirely given away the game.
Except that Redcloak and Xykon deliberately keep him hidden, as a secret weapon.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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Originally Posted by
b_jonas
Except that Redcloak and Xykon deliberately keep him hidden, as a secret weapon.
I don't understand what point you are trying to make to me.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
It feels like everyone’s extra-combative these days. I mean, debates used to get heated sometimes, but now I almost feel like people are looking for reasons *to* get confrontational with each other rather than looking for ways to *avoid* being confrontational. I liked it better before. :(
Worth bearing in mind is that we’re solving a puzzle in which we don’t have all the pieces. And not only are we missing some, we don’t know how many we’re missing! Maybe we have 50%, maybe we have 10%! As such, a little humility is in order. None of us know the answer, nor do we know what *isn’t* the answer, nor do we even know for sure the right way to interpret the data.
The best we can do it to work together. Evaluate the data and think of different ways of interpreting it. Speculate on what even *IS* data. Build consensus on what we think the process should be. Why? Because *we* decided it was the best way to do it.
Also, I think its important to focus more on the process than the result. We don’t know if any given answer is right or wrong. For example, I support the Glabrezu, but I don’t KNOW its correct and I CAN’T know if its right. So, fighting to get it on the FBS list should be like... finding an interesting answer to a legendarily difficult math problem. Its not being celebrated because its *right*, because we have no idea. Its celebrated because its INTERESTING and, looked at the right way, a good fit for the clues we have.
If our interpretation of the clues change, then our FBS list has to change. The Glabrezu is a good fit now, but if we decide MitD needs a 40+ STR then it’ll be gone in a heartbeat. We should be focused on the process of evaluating the clues, The clues should be driving it.
The FBS candidates are the monsters who we realize fit the clues the best. Changing our interpretation of the clues in advocacy of a candidate is very dicey. If its a perceptual shift (“Oh, wait, maybe Rich meant X when he said that, rather than Y”), then it can be ok as long as the consensus agrees on it. Some of our best ideas have come that way. On the other hand, not all ideas are good ones. If the consensus doesn’t agree with a change in interpretation then it should be a sign that maybe you’re heading in the wrong direction and should re-think. And flat our trying to change requirements to get a candidate accepted is anathema to our intellectual work, because its putting the unverifiable cart before the horse, so to speak.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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Originally Posted by
Crusher
It feels like everyone’s extra-combative these days.
Thems fightin' words.
For reals, though, if I'm coming off heated, please let me know so I can address it.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Thems fightin' words.
For reals, though, if I'm coming off heated, please let me know so I can address it.
SCREW YOU, NERD!
;p
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crusher
SCREW YOU, NERD!
;p
YOU PRETENTIOUS FOPDOODLE!:smallsmile:
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
What do you think Rich means when he says the MitD's reveal will be "satisfying," then?
You're quoting Rich wrong. His words is that "[the] actual answer to the mystery" will "satisfy".
It's entirely different - it's not the reveal that he's confident will be satisfying (an easy bar to meet), it's the answer that he's confident will be satisfying (a hard bar to meet).
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
In the context of the reveal being satisfying, it's assumed that most of the people guessing are familiar with d&d3.5e yes?
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
Even after that, Xykon and RC clearly mock him for his lack in perfomance ("try to be scary, try to be scary").
If he truly WANTED to fit in (with X and RC), and he changes shapes all the time unless he specifically doesn't want to, I'd think we would have seen him changing his eyes in some way, shape or form at some time.
This is actually a good argument against the Protean.
We should have been seeing Xykon and RC occasionally say stuff like "change to a scarier form already you dimwit", given how important it's always been to them that MitD be as scary as possible.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peelee
YOU PRETENTIOUS FOPDOODLE!:smallsmile:
You tub of pork and beer!
(apparently that's how Berlioz referred to Handel)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lio45
This is actually a good argument against the Protean.
We should have been seeing Xykon and RC occasionally say stuff like "change to a scarier form already you dimwit", given how important it's always been to them that MitD be as scary as possible.
That's as likely as them saying "you're a colossal snake, you'll be fine" if it was a different monster. Not something they would ever say, because it's a story and no matter what they're not gonna reveal it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crusher
You tub of pork and beer!
(apparently that's how Berlioz referred to Handel)
Sounds like he couldn't Handel his alcohol. I'll bet he turned a bright Scarlatti when he heard that!
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peelee
That's as likely as them saying "you're a colossal snake, you'll be fine" if it was a different monster. Not something they would ever say, because it's a story and no matter what they're not gonna reveal it.
Sounds like he couldn't Handel his alcohol. I'll bet he turned a bright Scarlatti when he heard that!
And demanded that he take that Bach
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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Originally Posted by
CriticalFailure
And demanded that he take that Bach
Why? What's he gonna do, Telemann?
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Wow, you guys are making so many jokes about composers. Maybe someone could write a Lizst?
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
The SRD draws a distinction between monsters which use spell like abilities innately, getting the spell effect as a sorcerer but otherwise requiring no components of any sort, and monsters who actually cast spells as a wizard or sorcerer would do, using various components. Which is to say, D&D terminology is aggravatingly imprecise.
This particular case is almost overly precise, especially given creatures that have both like formian queens. A formian queen has spells as a 17th-level sorcerer; she could know any set of spells known that any other 17th-level sorcerer could have, not just the typical list known...which I assume is why the word "typical" is in there. (The sample list appears to have been new in 3.5; the 3.0 SRD has no such list). A formian queen has calm emotions, charm monster, clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect chaos, detect thoughts, dictum, divination, hold monster, magic circle against chaos, order’s wrath, shield of law, and true seeing as spell-like abilities; every formian queen has those.
Usually spell-like abilities represent innate magic to reinforce the flavor of a creature (you may notice the "YOU CANNOT HIDE FROM THE LAW" theme with most of the formian queen's), using spells as a model for implementing the details; whereas spells model creatures who have innate knowledge of actual spellcasting (the kind of thing other creatures need class levels for). Having that many spell-like abilities brings in the same general complexity problem as spellcasting; between the two there are over fifty spell effects a formian queen could choose from each round...but I imagine my views on monster design are even farther off topic <<;
And just to be clear: a formian queen has no Strength or Dexterity score; being physically incapable of exerting force or moving would complicate a great deal of strips the MitD has appeared in.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crusher
It feels like everyone’s extra-combative these days..
FOOLS!!! YOU WILL PAY FOR YOUR INSULIN!!!!
Sorry I showed up late for the combative part, I wanted to get that in. I don't have a composer joke. I'm just not feeling very composed at all after work tonight. :smallfrown:
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Ok, one more music joke then I promise I won't make any more:
Middle C, E flat and G walk into a bar.
"Sorry," said the bartenders. "We don't serve minors."
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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Originally Posted by
Crusher
Wow, you guys are making so many jokes about composers. Maybe someone could write a Lizst?
Speaking of lists, i'm going Chopin, anyone want anything?
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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Originally Posted by
CriticalFailure
In the context of the reveal being satisfying, it's assumed that most of the people guessing are familiar with d&d3.5e yes?
I have no idea. I am actually not at all familiar with it outside of the context of this web comic and any research I've done to that end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lio45
This is actually a good argument against the Protean.
We should have been seeing Xykon and RC occasionally say stuff like "change to a scarier form already you dimwit", given how important it's always been to them that MitD be as scary as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peelee
That's as likely as them saying "you're a colossal snake, you'll be fine" if it was a different monster. Not something they would ever say, because it's a story and no matter what they're not gonna reveal it.
Yes, count me on the side of "Any argument that can essentially be described as 'If it was X, someone would have explicitly said something about it being X by now' is not valid."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lio45
You're quoting Rich wrong. His words is that "[the] actual answer to the mystery" will "satisfy".
It's entirely different - it's not the reveal that he's confident will be satisfying (an easy bar to meet), it's the answer that he's confident will be satisfying (a hard bar to meet).
OK, just to confirm the exact language:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in War and XPs (PDF, R4-B) - After the War: Looking Back from 2016
A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.
That said, my question still stands.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
It seems like if it were from something else, eg pokemon, it would be disappointing because it would assume the reader is familiar with something not a part of the setting.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lio45
This is actually a good argument against the Protean.
We should have been seeing Xykon and RC occasionally say stuff like "change to a scarier form already you dimwit", given how important it's always been to them that MitD be as scary as possible.
Tarquin may disagree with that reasoning. Any necessary conversation that might reveal too much information about the MitD's nature probably happens off-panel.
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lio45
This is actually a good argument against the Protean.
We should have been seeing Xykon and RC occasionally say stuff like "change to a scarier form already you dimwit", given how important it's always been to them that MitD be as scary as possible.
But that would pretty much confirm Protean
You can’t have a mystery if you outright tell what it is
Instead we have been given hints which can fit more than one candidate- which keeps us guessing
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crusher
Wow, you guys are making so many jokes about composers. Maybe someone could write a Lizst?
Nah, the only time I can be bothered writing one is when it's my Chopin Liszt - I hate forgetting stuff when I do the weekly groceries.
BTW, can't take credit for that one - my sis, a semi-professional (classical) musician, received one of those from another musician friend many years ago and we all found it clever:
https://www.amazon.com/JSI-Chopin-Li.../dp/B000ZU2IQY
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mjasghar
But that would pretty much confirm Protean
You can’t have a mystery if you outright tell what it is
Instead we have been given hints which can fit more than one candidate- which keeps us guessing
That wouldn't actually fit the protean anyway. The protean isn't a single creature, and then another single creature, and then another single creature--it's a boiling mass of features from many different creatures. The closest Xykon or Redcloak could get to that, even theoretically, would be something like "assume a feature that gives you confidence (assuming there is one...) and then spend a move action every round to keep it, such that you can't actually move and attack in the same round."
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
That said, my question still stands.
Not really; if everyone agrees that Rich is skilled enough to find story-fitting ways to make the reveal of absolutely anything interesting and satisfying (due to "awesome MitD character growth", etc.), it ceases to be a criterion. It wouldn't even disqualify therblewurkersaurus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quebbster
Any necessary conversation that might reveal too much information about the MitD's nature probably happens off-panel.
Yeah, that's totally true. This can actually explain most cases of "if it were X, then [character] acted illogically at [point in the story] by failing to [do Y]" - the "well duh, of course he did, just off-panel, don't want to give it away!" argument solves that.