Unfortunately, I don't really have anything of my own to add right now... what about you guys?
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Unfortunately, I don't really have anything of my own to add right now... what about you guys?
The fact that mind flayers are actually invading the past from the remains of their crumbling empire at the end of time is pretty stupid, but at the same time it could be an episode of Doctor Who which is kind of awesome. It also gives rise to weird questions about their possible relationship to humanity and whether or not they were the cause of their own existence.
I'm not sure that's canon. The Illithiad has excepts from the the Sargonne Prophecies and the Astromundi Chronicles that first introduce the concept of a Far Realm into D&D cosmology, and also seed a narrative that illithids are the results of wizards who've probed the boundaries of the future and were horribly warped. There is an implied intersection between time manipulation and the Far Realm within these fragments, though it is not explicitly stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye
What is however, is that the illithid empire was not in a distant future of existence, but the distant past. The illithids had an empire that spanned uncounted prime material planes, and their might was so great that even the eternal Blood War paused to take notice. Where you are correct is that the Sargonne Prophecies strongly imply that illithids traveled to the distant past from the future, and from there built their empire.
I can't recall anything from the 3.5 aberrations monsterbook that specifically contradicts the origins of illithids, and most certainly shouldn't their distant past empire. There is some corroboration in Lords of Madness to the time-travel backwards in the Aboleth section: given their unique racial memory, aboleths can remember the entirety of their forebearer's knowledge, to Origin. They have no collective memory of the creation and rise of illithids, they simply appeared.
Moreover, the greater established history of races makes no sense if the illithid empire was in a distant future. The children of Gith would not exist now in the contemporary D&D present if the rebellion and destruction of empire hadn't happened in a distant past. Even in the hypothetical that it was in a future from which the illithids and proto-gith escaped, it would breach canon in that the Far Realm is the conduit of time travel, and horribly warps those that meddle. Illithids clearly have paid the Far Realm tax, and the gith have not.
It's simple!
In the far future, the illithid's empire was dying (because of the heat-death of the universe) so they went back in time... way back in time.
Then, in the distant past, the illithids appeared (as the aboleths remember) and created a second empire... which was toppled by Gith.
Now the illithids are working to build their third empire while creating the seeds of their first empire.
Lords of Madness says it pretty explicitly IIRC. I'm not sure how quoting a bunch of non-3.5 books affects what's canon in 3.5, though. :smallconfused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Boozy
Simple as in possible, but there's nothing in Lords of Madness, The Illithiad, A Darkness Gathering, or Masters of the Eternal Night that implies the illithids might succeed in resurrecting their ancient empire. Dawn of the Overmind has a seed for it, but the result of the module conventionally is assumed to be PC success. Even 3.5 lore doesn't create any conditions for optimism; categorically across material illithids are described as being in an arc of slow diminishment. Even these eons after the fall of their early empire, they still haven't psychically recovered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagroth
This thread states 3.5, which is frustrating considering how much thinner lore material is since WotC took over for TSR. 3.+ has been a disaster in many ways as lore goes for many of us greybeards. Only Eberron impressed me for it's richness, which of course contains a goodly amount of tweak, since Eberron completely annihilates all cosmological canon from 3rd and earlier editions. White Wolf also produced excellent products, but that's not in house.
Just because they're in decline now, doesn't mean they can't be planting the seeds for their first empire (in the future).
It's all about causing future humans to become the proto-illithids, after all.
stupid awesome... you mentioned it in the funny thread before... there is a city that has an awakened gelatinous cube as their sewer workers guildmaster.
There was a Red Dragon who was dying from his wounds when he decided to create a replacement heart out of a Balor.
By which I don't mean he took the Balors heart. The entire Balor is his heart.
Ashardalon going above and beyond.
The leader of Waterdeep's Thieve's Guild is a Beholder with a ton of racial HD (and sorcerer levels, for.... reasons?). He has a mutation that allows him to not be irrevocably insane and paranoid. Just insane and paranoid enough to head the largest thieve's guild in the Realms without killing all his subordinates. This is a result of a mutation that allows his emotional brain to transmit all sensory info to his logical brain without any filtration (normally, Beholder's emotional brain filters sensory input to protect the logical brain's ego) allowing an unbiased view of the world (normally, Beholder's get shown that they, individually, are the ideal).
The story of the Pact Primeval from the second Fiendish Codex is one of the coolest "just as planned" moments I've ever read, and it gets bonus points for being written incredibly well and not just cool in concept.
Some of us consider that an entry in the just-stupid stupid category. In fact it was mentioned in OP companion thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by OPG
I personally find it too silly. Also don't like the biblical imagery and style.
On that note, time travel plots are too flimsy to stand up to anything more than a glancing look, firmly placing them in the silly category as well.
+1 for the others though.
My contribution to stupid, but awesome is Her Serenity, The Lady of Pain.
Initially invented as a plot device. Literally as a counterpoint to all the gods, so the multiverse doesn't fall apart. Powerful enough to stand up to any old divine chap, but never leaves Sigil. Never given stats, because to do so would be to imply she can be fought and slain. Which would be ludicrous. She's the in-universe DM of the cosmology.
Seconded. In fact, in 3.5, she serves a secondary meta role for converted Planescape campaigns. Within the context of Sigil (which for most campaigns fulfills the third tenet of the Rule of Three as the Center of All) she is the narrative check against player over-optimization. There's a lot of talk on these forums of Tier 1 characters potentially breaking the game, and the potential begrudgement of DM's that act to check the warping effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by martixy
As she stands, the Lady of Pain provides a canonical check to that, within Sigil at least. Her storyline can reference source material about Duke Rowanwood, and point out that any figure that amasses enough power to become a quasi-power gets Mazed or put in the Astal dead book. It only comes into effect if you interact in Sigil (or are worshiped there in a way that challenges her dominance), but since for most players this is a core element of narratives, it's an effective mechanism.
Err, Lords of Madness does make some pretty solid references to the time-travelling antics of Illithids (admittedly these are mostly references to just one theory of where the Mind Flayers originated):
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Originally Posted by LoM p.69
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Originally Posted by LoM p.71
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Originally Posted by LoM p.71
Nearer the other end of the power spectrum, but still beyond the scope of most stories:
There's a chamber in a dungeon/magical location in Sandstorm that has a giant fountain filled with scarab beetles. Anyone or anything dropped into the fountain is immediately swarmed and seemingly consumed.
In reality, there's a second fountain that *also* has a swarm of scarab beetles elsewhere. Just as the swarming mound of beetles shrinks as it seemingly eats whatever is tossed in there, so does another mound of beetles grow, until finally there's a person or item or whatever standing in the beetle fountain.
There's nothing impressive about this beyond how impressive the result of a teleportation circle should be, but I love that it's a canonically different way for such technology to work. Reminders that magic isn't exactly made up of plug and play effects (that's just how we gamers interact with them) are always fun for me.
New lore has been recently created by WOTC involving him and his goldfish. The idea was if the fish died, the whole guild goes into an uproar to replace the goldfish before Xanathar notices for reasons??? Unfornatly I don't know if this transfers backwards? It's 5e material, but it's official lore? Dunno, thought Id share.Quote:
Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker
I can't think of any rules given by TSR and Wizards of the Coast for determining outright what is canon.
Each edition progress the time clock. That's canon but oh in 5e (Or older editions of DM chooses to add it)Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarian Horde
Speaking of Mindflayers......
Thoon!