Mass Effect 3 - 13: Bet you could really go for a bottle of cool, refreshing Tupari!

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Originally Posted by Jayngfet

You know, that'd be really good information to have.

Too bad it's locked behind DLC that I don't own and referenced basically nowhere in the base game. Or that once they did multiplayer every single n7 marine hits exactly as hard as Shepard does. Or referenced when they make you hunt down augmentations anyway for apparently no reason.

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"No reason?" You're about to attempt a suicide mission! They had literally no idea what would be on the other side of that relay. You could have emerged from FTL and smacked into a wall or a black hole, and indeed just about every other ship that didn't have an IFF did exactly that. If you were going into a completely unknown situation, wouldn't you want as much science in your body as possible? I would Adam Jensen that ****.

And the information about the Claymore/Widow being unusable comes from their descriptions in the gun select menu, which ARE in the base game, no DLC required to read them.

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Originally Posted by Talderas

There are certainly other humans besides Shepard who can use the Widow (Zaeed) or the Claymore (Jack, Jacob).

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As others have told you, this is false - no human besides Shepard can use the Widow and Claymore at the time of ME2.

The ones in ME3, by contrast, are modified versions with less traumatic recoil/kick.

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Originally Posted by Talderas

Mass Effect 2 - Squadmates
Sniper Rifle - Garrus, Legion, Thane, Zaeed
Shotgun - Grunt, Jack, Jacob, Tali

There are certainly other humans besides Shepard who can use the Widow (Zaeed) or the Claymore (Jack, Jacob).

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As Calemyr says these weapons are special. The argument is not wether or not others can use shotguns. It's that particular shotgun.

The Claymore is a Krogan-specific weapon because they are the only species (except for Elcor I presume) that can fire it without the recoil breaking the bones in their arms.
The Widow is actually not a real sniper rifle. It is a dismounted and modified anti tank gun meant to be mounted on a vehicle. Only Geth can fire it (Legion can use it, if you research it for him specifically). And Shepard.

Edit: Also, apparently there are ninjas here!

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Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

As Calemyr says these weapons are special. The argument is not wether or not others can use shotguns. It's that particular shotgun.

The Claymore is a Krogan-specific weapon because they are the only species (except for Elcor I presume) that can fire it without the recoil breaking the bones in their arms.
The Widow is actually not a real sniper rifle. It is a dismounted and modified anti tank gun meant to be mounted on a vehicle. Only Geth can fire it (Legion can use it, if you research it for him specifically). And Shepard.

Edit: Also, apparently there are ninjas here!

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Also, preemptive strike, before anyone states that in multiplayer normal human sodiers can weild the Claymore and the Widow just fine: Its explicitly stated in the entries of both weapons that they underwent extensive redesign each to allow normal humans to fire them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Bit Fiend

Also, preemptive strike, before anyone states that in multiplayer normal human sodiers can weild the Claymore and the Widow just fine: Its explicitly stated in the entries of both weapons that they underwent extensive redesign each to allow normal humans to fire them in the first place.

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Probably because footage of Shep using those weapons in combat had lead to many, many serious injuries by exuberant soldiers...

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Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

Point. If someone feels like they don't feel like paying "extra" for the "full" story that's one thing. However I have never understood the hostility towards "DLC" by people who at the same time praize "Expansions".

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I don't really praise either. But I'm old fashioned like that. If I saw a book that said: Chapters 15-21 are cut out, pay an extra $5 to find out what happened to Sir Gallan on the trip to the secret city of Dareen. Oh, and there's going to be some important plot elements in this part, so you better do it!

I would find the author and throw the book at him. If I buy a book, I expect the full book. If I buy a game, I expect the full game. That's all there is to it. Maybe I'd be less pissy if I had money, but I limit myself to only buying one game a year because I don't have money to frivolously spend on this bullcrap.

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Originally Posted by Calemyr

Probably because footage of Shep using those weapons in combat had lead to many, many serious injuries by exuberant soldiers...

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"Ever wondered how Commander Shepard can fire a Claymore? Easy: He drinks Tupari! Try Tupari now and you can be as awesome as Commander Shepard!"*
*Tupari does not take responsibility for fractures, loss of body parts, death or any other consequences of firing a Claymore Shotgun.

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Originally Posted by Dienekes

I don't really praise either. But I'm old fashioned like that. If I saw a book that said: Chapters 15-21 are cut out, pay an extra $5 to find out what happened to Sir Gallan on the trip to the secret city of Dareen. Oh, and there's going to be some important plot elements in this part, so you better do it!

I would find the author and throw the book at him. If I buy a book, I expect the full book. If I buy a game, I expect the full game. That's all there is to it. Maybe I'd be less pissy if I had money, but I limit myself to only buying one game a year because I don't have money to frivolously spend on this bullcrap.

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You could make this argument for ME3 and I wouldn't say a word. For ME2, however, you'll have to point out to me, exactly, where it's not complete. All of the major story DLCs for 2 were released between several months and a year after launch. If they held back production for every little new thing they wanted to throw in, there's a term for that: Development Hell.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

And the information about the Claymore/Widow being unusable comes from their descriptions in the gun select menu, which ARE in the base game, no DLC required to read them.

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The text isn't exactly that clear. It says "Krogan/Geth only", not "Krogan/Geth only, and somehow also Shepard". So I just didn't bother with them.

In all seriousness, if it's true it's true and I can't argue. But "Shepard can now lift five times his body weight" is a bit of a major thing to just gloss over. You'd think details that huge would be conveyed a bit better. I mean if nothing else, if Shepard is supposed to be that strong then your Melee attacks should probably take down enemies a whole lot faster than they do;.

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Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

Point. If someone feels like they don't feel like paying "extra" for the "full" story that's one thing. However I have never understood the hostility towards "DLC" by people who at the same time praize "Expansions".

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Skyrim is probably the best example of the difference. The base game has the whole plot wrapped up, and anything that didn't make it in can just be finished off by the community. You aren't pushed to spend a bunch of extra money to get something that makes the base game feel complete, you're having an entirely new thing added with new stuff from wholecloth. It's worth it because it's stuff they didn't or couldn't put in the base game.

For an obvious example

Bioware DLC however, is vile. For an obvious example, imagine if they did the DLC for the above game. In all likliehood they'd have torn out the companions and made you pay extra to become a werewolf. Their base is still right there in whiterun, and all the quests and followers are right there on the disc, but you can't use them unless you pay extra. Or else Lydia suddenly gains a dark and mysterious past she'll reference, but good luck dealing with it without paying money.

Expansions expand the game, DLC usually just adds stuff that should have been in the base game.

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I know you don't like DLC, but at some point you're going to get over the fact that this is gaming now. This is how it is and how it will be for the foreseeable future.

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Allow me to kindly say screw that. If a company tries that hard to fleece me out of my money, I have a right to turn them down and spend it on something else.

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Also, why don't you have Lair of the Shadow Broker? It's easily one of the best pieces of DLC for any game ever. Not getting it on principle is only denying you the enjoyment of it.

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Because it doesn't come with the deluxe edition. Despite the game being years old Bioware feels the need to fleece me out of that much extra money. Hell, it's not even money. They charge more money than the DLC costs so that you can buy arbitrary points. None of which ever go on sale so you're basically stuck paying full price for something years later. If there was a complete edition I could upgrade to, then maybe I'd go for it, but if the company is going to make it that hard I'll just buy a different game on principle.

I don't care how good Lair of the Shadow Broker is, I'm not spending as much on it as I did the base game, and I'm not jumping through that many company hoops to get at it.

So my friend Sean and I are going to be doing a 24 hour stream from noon EST tomorrow to noon EST Sunday, and I'm wondering if anyone would be interested in me doing a Mass Effect playthrough?

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Originally Posted by Jayngfet

The text isn't exactly that clear. It says "Krogan/Geth only", not "Krogan/Geth only, and somehow also Shepard". So I just didn't bother with them.

In all seriousness, if it's true it's true and I can't argue. But "Shepard can now lift five times his body weight" is a bit of a major thing to just gloss over. You'd think details that huge would be conveyed a bit better. I mean if nothing else, if Shepard is supposed to be that strong then your Melee attacks should probably take down enemies a whole lot faster than they do;.

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I don't know how much he can lift; for all we know, the ability to use a Claymore has as much to do with his skeleton's strength as that of his muscles, though both do play a role in what you can hoist.

To your latter remark, the melee attacks feel fine to me. You're can beat 800lb. regeneraing krogan to death almost with your bare hands, I doubt that is a common physical feat in the MEverse. And for other enemies, they tend to be wearing ablative armor and cyclonic shields or other defenses, so not being able to, say, walk up and sock a salarian through a brick wall is reasonable too.

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Originally Posted by Jayngfet

Skyrim is probably the best example of the difference. The base game has the whole plot wrapped up, and anything that didn't make it in can just be finished off by the community. You aren't pushed to spend a bunch of extra money to get something that makes the base game feel complete, you're having an entirely new thing added with new stuff from wholecloth. It's worth it because it's stuff they didn't or couldn't put in the base game.

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This is a disingenuous comparison. Skyrim's "plot" is threadbare - "lots of dragons, kill they ass." Its strength is being a giant sandbox, So a self-contained plot that they don't have to worry about expanding on is a luxury unique to their brand. Their expansions center around given you new toys to play within that sandbox - riding dragons, becoming a vampire, building a house etc.

Bioware's meanwhile is narrative - to sell expansions, they have to give you more of that. And for narrative to matter, at least some of it has to affect the main plot. Nobody gave a rat's ass about Omega and Pinnacle Station, but we shelled out for Arrival, Lair and Leviathan.

And as for stuff being on the disc that gets unlocked by launch DLC, do you know what certification is?

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Originally Posted by Krade

You could make this argument for ME3 and I wouldn't say a word. For ME2, however, you'll have to point out to me, exactly, where it's not complete. All of the major story DLCs for 2 were released between several months and a year after launch. If they held back production for every little new thing they wanted to throw in, there's a term for that: Development Hell.

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I thought Development Hell was when work has been slowed or stopped before production. Taking the time to actually finish the game isn't that.

As to DLC in general I'm really thinking of all Bioware games I've played. Dragon Age has Return to Ostagar, which actually gives the motivation of the main enemy of the game. For ME2-3, to understand why you're imprisoned in the begining of the game you need Arrival, and to understand what's up with Liara suddenly being the Shadowbroker you need Lair of the Shadowbroker. Just ME3 DLC, I've already made my position that Leviathan and From Ashes are pretty relevant to the main story.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

And as for stuff being on the disc that gets unlocked by launch DLC, do you know what certification is?

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Whatever it is, it means when I finally can afford to buy the game used I still don't get the whole game.

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Originally Posted by Jayngfet

In all seriousness, if it's true it's true and I can't argue. But "Shepard can now lift five times his body weight" is a bit of a major thing to just gloss over. You'd think details that huge would be conveyed a bit better. I mean if nothing else, if Shepard is supposed to be that strong then your Melee attacks should probably take down enemies a whole lot faster than they do;.

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Minor nitpick, but lots of people with Shepard's build and body type could probably lift 5 times their body weight. Shepard can probably lift way more than that. :smallbiggrin:

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Nobody gave a rat's ass about Omega and Pinnacle Station, but we shelled out for Arrival, Lair and Leviathan.

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I enjoyed Omega much more than Arrival or Leviathan myself. I'd put it third on a personal list of best ME DLC, after Lair of the Shadowbroker and Citadel. Maybe fourth, after Kasumi, at a stretch.

(I did not play Pinnacle Station, but that's because I didn't play any ME1 DLC. The game was not good enough for me to be interested in additional content for it.)

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Originally Posted by Psyren

This is a disingenuous comparison. Skyrim's "plot" is threadbare - "lots of dragons, kill they ass." Its strength is being a giant sandbox, So a self-contained plot that they don't have to worry about expanding on is a luxury unique to their brand. Their expansions center around given you new toys to play within that sandbox - riding dragons, becoming a vampire, building a house etc.

Bioware's meanwhile is narrative - to sell expansions, they have to give you more of that. And for narrative to matter, at least some of it has to affect the main plot. Nobody gave a rat's ass about Omega and Pinnacle Station, but we shelled out for Arrival, Lair and Leviathan.

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Which isn't really much of an excuse. If your game isn't set up to make the DLC work in a smooth way, don't force so much of it through so many gates. If you know you want to sell that much of it, the game should be built with that taken into an account. I'd have gladly shelled out for DA Awakening if it didn't come with my edition of the game. It's genuinely good and worth the money. ME3 should have been built with expansions in mind, even if it's just "make the ending as such so that Shepard can do something afterwards. Or one of his buddies."

But then we get back into the raw stupidity that is the ending of 3.

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And as for stuff being on the disc that gets unlocked by launch DLC, do you know what certification is?

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Irrelevant. It's on the disc, basically fully formed and ready to go. It was available at launch and it's only distinction is being behind a 5-10 dollar paywall at best. At worst it's under that and I have to try navigating the byzantine ridiculousness that is EA's ass backwards commerce, and Biowares ass backwards commerce.

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Originally Posted by Dienekes

Whatever it is, it means when I finally can afford to buy the game used I still don't get the whole game.

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It means the Day 1 DLC stuff is content you wouldn't have gotten anyway if they couldn't have made it as DLC. This is because they have to lock down the game disc (or discs) for certification by Microsoft/Sony, who play through the entire game making sure, say, it doesn't contain code that will wipe all your savegames off your hard drive.

During that time the game studios (programmers, writers, artists, designers etc.) are sitting on their asses doing nothing. Some can move on to the next project, but often that next game will be in too early a stage for the animators, voice actors and other meaty folks to have much to do. Some will take vacation but there will always be some who can't, or whose vacation is scheduled for another time etc., So rather than lay off the entire studio between games, they are instead put to work on Day 1 DLC - the groundwork for which has been laid and placed on the disk prior to certification because they knew they'd have that lull in their schedule. In addition, you can blame consumer behavior, because we tend to buy DLC more right after launch than months down the road, so the more they can put out on launch day (or close to it) the more likely it'll be bought.

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Originally Posted by Zevox

I enjoyed Omega much more than Arrival or Leviathan myself. I'd put it third on a personal list of best ME DLC, after Lair of the Shadowbroker and Citadel. Maybe fourth, after Kasumi, at a stretch.

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I think its safe to say you're an outlier on this one. Leviathan even had romance content, and we eat that up like candy. Omega maybe beat Arrival in popularity, but no way did it beat Leviathan.

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Originally Posted by Jayngfet

Irrelevant. It's on the disc, basically fully formed and ready to go. It was available at launch and it's only distinction is being behind a 5-10 dollar paywall at best. At worst it's under that and I have to try navigating the byzantine ridiculousness that is EA's ass backwards commerce, and Biowares ass backwards commerce.

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It's not backwards. Everybody certifies and (nearly) everybody has day 1 DLC. It just makes sense to do it. Your viewpoint is the backwards one in this scenario.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

It's not backwards. Everybody certifies and (nearly) everybody has day 1 DLC. It just makes sense to do it. Your viewpoint is the backwards one in this scenario.

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You know, it's one thing to say that and another to implement it. Give me a list of games released and the percentages of games that actually use day 1 DLC. Give me evidence, or stop giving me excuses.

It's this exact thing that Bioware has gotten crap about and knows they've gotten crap about. That's why they got crap not just from random bloggers, but from Forbes and other actual important sites time and again. That's why they're cutting back on this sort of thing.

Omega is definitely better than Arrival in my book.

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Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

Omega is definitely better than Arrival in my book.

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Agreed, and I would actually go so far as to say that Arrival was my least favorite of all the "Story" DLCs - so not counting stuff like the weapon DLCs and really small ones like the Normandy Crash. It required too much stupidity on the part of everybody involved.

On Arrival's impact on ME3, there really isn't any since an alternative explanation is provided. You're either locked up because you went rogue and started working with Cerberus, or you're locked up because you went "rogue" and blew up a solar system while totally-not-working-for-Hackett.

For the big reveal that Liara was the Shadow Broker, again it was a non-reveal despite not having played that DLC the first time. You arrive on Ilium in ME2, Liara is obviously well connected and into some black ops stuff. When you meet her again she's moved up in the world - no biggie.

As someone who played through both games first without DLC and then again with the DLC, I didn't feel like I was missing anything. I did have Javik, but I didn't pay for him so meh. Even the revelations in the Leviathan DLC were more of an "Oh, neat." than any feeling like there were major plot points that were not revealed in the main game.

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Originally Posted by Jayngfet

You know, it's one thing to say that and another to implement it. Give me a list of games released and the percentages of games that actually use day 1 DLC. Give me evidence, or stop giving me excuses.

It's this exact thing that Bioware has gotten crap about and knows they've gotten crap about. That's why they got crap not just from random bloggers, but from Forbes and other actual important sites time and again. That's why they're cutting back on this sort of thing.

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One tangent of a nitpick here: the Forbes website has random bloggers on it, too. There are many things on their site (from random bloggers) that are incredibly far from what an actual professional would call 'professional'.

It's been proven time and again that the further from the release date you are, the fewer purchases of DLC occur. So, in order to maximize returns, companies have pushed to get DLC out as quickly as possible. This has culminated in Day 1 DLC, which is not necessarily the rip-off you say it is.

Also, what would it take that to actually make you happy? I hope you don't think that any DLC that has any relevance to the main plot needs to be free. That would mean that all the people that made this game that you enjoy would have to work without pay. I guess you would perhaps rather we go back to the old model of never updating or expanding games? Where there were no patches and no DLC? Once a game is released it's done and never gets any support, ever.

To take Skyrim as an example, would you still love it so much if Bethesda never patched all those glaring (and sometimes game-breaking) bugs? I had followers just plain disappear on me while they were loaded with valuables. Dragons never landing for any reason. Quest lines frozen because some guy somewhere just didn't spawn. All these things add up and over time they actually fixed most of the problems. Without DLC, companies would have much less incentive to release patches and updates. If they already got your money and will never get more for that game, then why would they ever bother fixing the problems with it? They certainly wouldn't do it because they felt they owed any of us anything.

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Originally Posted by Krade

One tangent of a nitpick here: the Forbes website has random bloggers on it, too. There are many things on their site (from random bloggers) that are incredibly far from what an actual professional would call 'professional'.

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A fair point. Though when most competition is video game journalism(tm), this is as professional as it gets. Considering the fact that the articles there tend to be the only ones sensible enough to make some incredibly basic points, they can't really be dismissed.

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It's been proven time and again that the further from the release date you are, the fewer purchases of DLC occur. So, in order to maximize returns, companies have pushed to get DLC out as quickly as possible. This has culminated in Day 1 DLC, which is not necessarily the rip-off you say it is.

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Of course, this isn't my problem. It's not your problem too. That's EA's problem. What is my problem is that there are things that are intended for the main game, finished on time, then taken out after the fact just to charge me an extra ten dollars.

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Also, what would it take that to actually make you happy? I hope you don't think that any DLC that has any relevance to the main plot needs to be free. That would mean that all the people that made this game that you enjoy would have to work without pay. I guess you would perhaps rather we go back to the old model of never updating or expanding games? Where there were no patches and no DLC? Once a game is released it's done and never gets any support, ever.

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To take Skyrim as an example, would you still love it so much if Bethesda never patched all those glaring (and sometimes game-breaking) bugs? I had followers just plain disappear on me while they were loaded with valuables. Dragons never landing for any reason. Quest lines frozen because some guy somewhere just didn't spawn. All these things add up and over time they actually fixed most of the problems. Without DLC, companies would have much less incentive to release patches and updates. If they already got your money and will never get more for that game, then why would they ever bother fixing the problems with it? They certainly wouldn't do it because they felt they owed any of us anything.[/QUOTE]

Bethesda launched patches long before dawnguard dropped and continued to do so long after. They didn't hold DLC over the head of the fandom or throw out buisness plans. They said right out that they'd patch bugs, then release substantial DLC at a more substantial cost as an expansion pack. To throw your point back at you, Bioware isn't exactly any better. Look at Origins. I tried to run a playthrough and it was probably more buggy than Skyrim by a country mile. Quests would fail to trigger, pieces of models wouldn't load, and every time I needed to climb a staircase it became a huge ordeal and I could get stuck at the end of it. Most of those weren't unique to me and were reasonably common even years later, even if on main questlines or super prevailent. But Bethesda just fixed theirs regularly without demanding regular cashouts of five and ten dollars. Because they realized long ago, unlike Bioware, that horse armor packs were stupid and they shouldn't fleece their playerbase at every possible point.

Because the thing is, I've actually met people from a few different studios and spoken to people who've worked in or lead projects here and there. Studio culture from place to place isn't interchangable or fixed, and I've very rarely heard good things from any of EA's subordinate groups. Basically all of them have people working under pressure and arbitrary goals, lead by men in suits who try to make boasts and demands they have no understanding of, and will do everything short of breaking the law in order to get their way, even if it means losing players, workers, and even money, oddly enough, in some cases. Bethesda's guys have basically always been friendlier and more willing to talk about their work(provided they're allowed to), including it's flaws. There's a reasonably high degree of trust in player intelligence, which is natural because they're much more friendly and accommodating behind the scenes.

This is entirely anecdotal, of course, and my experiences aren't nearly complete or all encompassing, and I'm just relaying statements I've heard from people actually working from people on the inside. But in my experience it's pretty easy to tell a companies culture once you talk to a few people and ask the right questions.

Of course, more objectively, there's the more obvious fact that whatever sales statistics we do have or can guess at show that more people have bought Skyrim than ME3, and that they've logged more total hours onto the former and the latter. There's arguments to be had over how much and if you've got contrary figures feel free to bust them out, but it's been pretty damn well proven that "Wait a bit to make a few substantial expansions" works at least as well as "Reach into your players pockets every time you can".

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Originally Posted by Psyren

It means the Day 1 DLC stuff is content you wouldn't have gotten anyway if they couldn't have made it as DLC. This is because they have to lock down the game disc (or discs) for certification by Microsoft/Sony, who play through the entire game making sure, say, it doesn't contain code that will wipe all your savegames off your hard drive.

During that time the game studios (programmers, writers, artists, designers etc.) are sitting on their asses doing nothing. Some can move on to the next project, but often that next game will be in too early a stage for the animators, voice actors and other meaty folks to have much to do. Some will take vacation but there will always be some who can't, or whose vacation is scheduled for another time etc., So rather than lay off the entire studio between games, they are instead put to work on Day 1 DLC - the groundwork for which has been laid and placed on the disk prior to certification because they knew they'd have that lull in their schedule. In addition, you can blame consumer behavior, because we tend to buy DLC more right after launch than months down the road, so the more they can put out on launch day (or close to it) the more likely it'll be bought.

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Yeah, nothing in this description really requires the stuff like Shale and whatnot to be behind certifications. Especially since they're already given for free. But you just aren't allowed them without a code that unlocks them on the disk. All it does is screw over guys like me who buy them used.

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Originally Posted by Dienekes

Yeah, nothing in this description really requires the stuff like Shale and whatnot to be behind certifications. Especially since they're already given for free.

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Certifications are required by console manufacturers - no matter whether it is a whole game, piece of DLC or a patch.

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But you just aren't allowed them without a code that unlocks them on the disk. All it does is screw over guys like me who buy them used.

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That was their intention - Shale, the Black Emporium, Cerberus Network. All were intended to get some cash from people who buy used games. Hardly surprising when we talk about people who saw no problem with including messages about buying the DLC in character dialogue ingame...

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Originally Posted by Dienekes

Yeah, nothing in this description really requires the stuff like Shale and whatnot to be behind certifications. Especially since they're already given for free. But you just aren't allowed them without a code that unlocks them on the disk. All it does is screw over guys like me who buy them used.

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And that is precisely the point. Probably the best for them to do about used games, actually - give people an incentive to buy new.

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Originally Posted by karpik777

That was their intention - Shale, the Black Emporium, Cerberus Network. All were intended to get some cash from people who buy used games. Hardly surprising when we talk about people who saw no problem with including messages about buying the DLC in character dialogue ingame...

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Well **** them. No other business gets to try and swindle more money when someone who had already bought their product tries to sell it. I really wish this practice would die off.

And yeah, that pissed me off too. I'm glad they haven't done that again. Every time I went to base camp I saw that exclamation point got excited, then I remembered what it was. Completely throws you out of the experience.

First of all Shale is a special case since they had actually taken her out of the main game pemanently; her original design was the same as the other golems, and they realized too late she would not fit through all doors.
They concluded they didn't have time to redesign her so they just ripped her out (that's why her voice was still on the disc).

However, after they "went gold", they realized their secondary team had a month or so free, so they got to work to redesign her. Result? "Day One" DLC.

Second, as pointed out, Day One DLCs that come free with a pre-order, or collector's edition is something I have ZERO problem with. It's a bonus for loyal customers. Which is simply good business practice.

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Originally Posted by Zevox

And that is precisely the point. Probably the best for them to do about used games, actually - give people an incentive to buy new.

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You do realize most of the time people who buy used wouldn't buy new right? Half my collection came used, except for steam where half of it came new. If it was full price, I'd move on to something that wasn't. There is a big difference between 20 dollars and 60 dollars, or even 40 and 60. In an economy like this every dollar counts and we're talking about luxury items, not necessities. I haven't bought a game for full price in years, because I can't afford to, because I'm a full time student crammed into a concrete building and worked for 80 hours a week alongside every other would be game designer or animator.

And my situation isn't unique, the vast majority of people these days don't have that much money to throw around and are working way more hours than you'd think in whatever area they'e in. An extra 20 dollar bill or two might mean the difference between ramen and real food, or something worse than ramen. This is why smaller games like Minecraft took off right in the middle of the biggest economic depression in seven decades, and why skyrim, which doesn't jerk the player around or demand the last of your dollars before it even launches as a display of loyalty, is by most metrics the most played single player game of all time. Or why say, actually good free to play games like TF2 and DOTA 2 have legitimate economies around them as people are willing to spend two and three dollar chunks on sidegrades when convenient.

It doesn't matter what your incentive is, if your customer base can't afford to part with that extra money it's not a good idea to decide they suddenly weren't loyal enough.

TL;DR version:

Hey everyone, this store discriminates against the poor!

Actually, the opposite is true.

The vast majority of gamers, both on console (at least on the Big Two) are over 30* yrs old (it's one of those things that market people forget, just like the fact that women and girls make up over 40% of gamers now). The reason them (we) don't play is because time, not money (kids, work, having to cut the lawn, etc etc).

*actually the average age is 34 years old. the age group that statistically plays the most games are 39-year olds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

First of all Shale is a special case since they had actually taken her out of the main game pemanently; her original design was the same as the other golems, and they realized too late she would not fit through all doors.
They concluded they didn't have time to redesign her so they just ripped her out (that's why her voice was still on the disc).

However, after they "went gold", they realized their secondary team had a month or so free, so they got to work to redesign her. Result? "Day One" DLC.

Second, as pointed out, Day One DLCs that come free with a pre-order, or collector's edition is something I have ZERO problem with. It's a bonus for loyal customers. Which is simply good business practice.

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I mostly only care when it's all on the disk anyway, meaning I did buy it but it's being withheld from me, or if it actually very important for the game to make sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

Actually, the opposite is true.

The vast majority of gamers, both on console (at least on the Big Two) are over 30* yrs old (it's one of those things that market people forget, just like the fact that women and girls make up over 40% of gamers now). The reason them (we) don't play is because time, not money (kids, work, having to cut the lawn, etc etc).

*actually the average age is 34 years old. the age group that statistically plays the most games are 39-year olds.

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Hence "working way more" being thrown in there. We all have way more on our plate than we'd like, and games are a luxury. I know I'm nowhere near typical, but I have problems that do crop up in some form or another reasonably frequently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dienekes

I mostly only care when it's all on the disk anyway, meaning I did buy it but it's being withheld from me, or if it actually very important for the game to make sense.

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In the case of Shale I'd go so far as to say that still really isn't an excuse. Trying to hand the player a generic model then realizing way too late that you need to put a modicum of work into your visuals isn't really reason to try charging extra for it. It's work that should have been done from point one and you shouldn't have the gall to demand bonus money for doing your freaking job.

Can we just settle on you not liking to pay extra, period?
I consider all DLC's for all Bioware Games (except Awakening) worth the money by far. And that includes weapons and armors.