[3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!

Printable View

Show 60 post(s) from this thread on one page
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
  • Spontaneous Specialists (Beguiler, Dread Necro, Warmage) which gain the same traits as the above except they can't replace their spell list; instead, they gain all spells of their list and have Advanced Learning to cover for the rest.
  • Partial Spellcasters (Bards, Duskblades, Hexblades, Paladins, Rangers) would get the ability to cast spells as a standard action innately, but they'd get partial access to spells and spell levels.
  • Finally, the Exceptions exist to cover just about everything else.


  • Speaking of which...

    Quote:

    I find the need to apply the full caster/partial caster/exception label to each class in order to apply this change might become a little unwieldy though, although you seem to have some solid guidelines/reasonings for each category in place.
    I'd say it's a necessary evil. The game thrives with indexing, such as the school categorization and how the classes naturally gravitate toward certain categories. The categories are, at the most part, intuitive and shouldn't be hard to deviate from; the exceptions are the category that might cause a bit more headaches than usual because they don't fully exist within the Full or Partial camp, and need their own way to deal with things. The solid reasoning exists to show how the alterations make sense; if they didn't, then it would be pointless to continue.

    Quote:

    How do these changes interact with the Wu Jen's Spell Secret ability? This ability, as a reminder, permanently upgrades one spell in the Wu Jen's library with one metamagic, causing it to be cast with that metamagic in effect at all times for free.
    There would be three ways to handle them, two of them being more radical than the other:


    Of course, the Wu Jen does need to be retouched. The Wu Jen by now exists as a weaker wizard with oriental flavor which can choose a few spells that are more powerful than the norm. The lack of a wider spell list kills it, and thus it never reaches the potential of the Wizard no matter how hard it tries, even if it has Spell Secret and spells like Giant Size and Trascend Mortality.
  • 2011-07-31, 11:47 PM
    Tenno Seremel
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    this will hurt, as you mention, direct damage spells but also reduce the power of Enervation and the "anti-dragon ray")

    Personally, I'd remove all spells that cause negative levels altogether…
  • 2011-08-01, 06:21 PM
    Gideon Falcon
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    For the other things that you're going to fix, I suggest lengthening the casting time for the teleport spells to at least a full minute. If the caster wants to escape, Dimension Door is range enough.
  • 2011-08-01, 07:38 PM
    Cieyrin
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Hrm, interesting indeed. I suppose you'll have the mimicing feat to the metapsionic solution come up soon? Barring a Wujen Retool, I think having the option should be in there.

    Also, I think the system may not be fully compatible with Quicken, given the original Rapid Spell's Special section.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Complete Divine, Rapid Spell
    Special: A spell can be made rapid and quickened only if its original casting time was 1 full round.

    Since all spells are full rounds unless otherwise noted, how does Quicken fall into this, since you can't seem to Quicken normal spells unless they were already standards (partial spellcaster/some exception territory) or already swift/immediate, which is useless to Quicken, anyways. Was it your intention to have Quicken not be available to the full casters without the Metapsionic mimic mini-chain? Maybe I'm missing something...
  • 2011-08-03, 04:54 AM
    T.G. Oskar
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Hrm, interesting indeed. I suppose you'll have the mimicing feat to the metapsionic solution come up soon? Barring a Wujen Retool, I think having the option should be in there.

    Well, of course there is. It DOES require a certain level and two metamagic feats, but it's not as mind-boggling as Psicrystal Containment where you need a psicrystal for the effect to work. In fact, I might consider making a version of said feat for metapsionics that stacks with Psicrystal Containment but provide only partial benefit.

    Quote:

    Also, I think the system may not be fully compatible with Quicken, given the original Rapid Spell's Special section.

    Since all spells are full rounds unless otherwise noted, how does Quicken fall into this, since you can't seem to Quicken normal spells unless they were already standards (partial spellcaster/some exception territory) or already swift/immediate, which is useless to Quicken, anyways. Was it your intention to have Quicken not be available to the full casters without the Metapsionic mimic mini-chain? Maybe I'm missing something...
    Yes, you're missing something. If all spells are meant to be cast as full-round actions unless they're already slower or faster than the norm (a standard action), it is reasonable to think that there should be an alteration for Quicken Spell to work. The language has to change, but Quicken Spell and Rapid Spell can't be used on the same round (thus, you can either cast one spell as a standard action, or two spells as a full-round action by using your swift action as well). Otherwise, it should work on all spells cast as full-round actions; the ones altered to work as full-round actions, as well as those who already ARE full-round actions. Those with 1-round casting times or more are out, so that means you can't Quicken a Summon Monster I-IX spell (though I *might* consider just doing so for the heck of it). But, the idea is that Quicken Spell could be used with the spells as usual, replacing the limitations on full-round spells.

    In fact, the way Quicken is written oddly enough would have allowed Sorcerers to cast spells, but that was scrapped out because of the special limitation. Notice how the spell is written:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Quicken Spell description, SRD
    A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.

    "More than 1 full round action" can imply one of two things: either it includes full round spells (and thus, the ruling is exclusive; move-action spells, standard action spells and full-round action spells can be Quickened but not 1-round spells and further), or it excludes full round spells (thus the ruling is inclusive, as in "more than 1 full round action, including full round action spells"). The original ruling makes that restriction inclusive; the way I intend to handle it makes the restriction exclusive (as in, you can cast spells with full-round action casting times as swift actions, but nothing beyond). It all depends on how you see it, and as I see it, the only reason it doesn't work with full-round actions is because there's a specific restriction for Sorcerers that was applied as a general rule.
  • 2011-08-03, 08:12 AM
    Tenno Seremel
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Quote:

    A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.
    Since 1 full round is no more than 1 full round you can, in fact, quicken 1 full round action spell by RAW.
  • 2011-08-06, 06:27 AM
    ocel
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Have you considered an additional division? For instance:
    • Full-Caster: Spell-List Limit: 0-9, Full-Round-action, or 1-2 rounds;
    • Half-Full: Spell-List Limit: 0-6, a standard or Full Action
    • Half or Half-Empty: Spell-List Limit: 0-5 or 1-5, Swift or Standard Action.

    Edit#1: Out of curiosity, does this variant have any effect for martial adepts, otherwise known as tome of battle classes?
    I'm also anxious to see the latest version of the incantations you plan for this variant in the indeterminable future.
  • 2011-08-07, 09:05 AM
    Cieyrin
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tenno Seremel View Post
    Since 1 full round is no more than 1 full round you can, in fact, quicken 1 full round action spell by RAW.

    I think what was meant in RAW before the Sage clarified and screwed over spontaneous casters, at least in terms of Quickening without shenanigans, was Standard or Full Rounds could be Quickened, 1 rounds (Enlarge Person, Sleep, Summon X, etc.) could not without being Rapid first.

    Anyways, Oskar, I just thought I'd point it out so you can clarify as another special case so as to deal with confusion that rather surrounds Quicken at times.

    Also, I don't agree on not treating Sublime Chords as full casters when Ur Priests are, as they throw around scary amounts of spells without necessarily having to go Bard. Same could be said for Divine Crusader as well, though that's more heavily restricted without other prestige class assistance.
  • 2011-08-12, 12:27 PM
    T.G. Oskar
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ocel View Post
    Have you considered an additional division? For instance:
    • Full-Caster: Spell-List Limit: 0-9, Full-Round-action, or 1-2 rounds;
    • Half-Full: Spell-List Limit: 0-6, a standard or Full Action
    • Half or Half-Empty: Spell-List Limit: 0-5 or 1-5, Swift or Standard Action.

    The reason I haven't considered it is because I believe the distinction between a full spellcaster and a partial spellcaster is distinction enough. Partial spellcasters have the ability to use Quicken Spell in a way they can cast two spells at the same round, or use a spell and make a full-round attack action, or cast a spell, move and attack, although they don't get the defensive trait. That would be the rough equivalent of extending the Battle Blessing feat into all partial spellcasters, although not all will be willing to get Quicken Spell for that. Further distinguishing the Bard (and to an extent the Psychic Warrior) from the Half casters (Paladin, Ranger, etc.) and the Full spellcasters (Cleric, Wizard, etc.) might lower a bit more the potential of the Bard. The distinction is also pretty specific (the Bard is the only base class that has this trait, unless you consider PF classes), so making a completely different ruling for a specific class when I could simply fold them into one of the most numerous distinctions would be easier.

    Quote:

    Edit#1: Out of curiosity, does this variant have any effect for martial adepts, otherwise known as tome of battle classes?
    I'm also anxious to see the latest version of the incantations you plan for this variant in the indeterminable future.
    None whatsoever. Martial Adepts are one of the ways martial characters get a much needed boost, so nerf them by forcing their maneuvers to be treated as full-round actions really won't help martial characters.

    As for the incantations, I'll see if I can write about them ASAP. They'll be strikingly different from the UA incantations, because these are meant to be a bit more general (and with potentially worse backlashes).

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Also, I don't agree on not treating Sublime Chords as full casters when Ur Priests are, as they throw around scary amounts of spells without necessarily having to go Bard. Same could be said for Divine Crusader as well, though that's more heavily restricted without other prestige class assistance.

    While I could make it pretty easy, just as the Bard is the point of contention between the Full casters and the Partial casters (since the Bard is right in-between them), the Sublime Chord works the same. Ur-Priests are full spellcasters (much like Apostles of Peace are), but Sublime Chords basically transform the partial spellcasting ability of the character into full spellcasting ability. It's the only class that does IIRC, unless Beholder Mage proves me wrong. Thus, it is a really hard case to adjudicate, because it uses the partial spellcasting ability of the Bard (or the arcane class) and merely serves as an extension. I could work a very specific exception to the rule, in which spells gained through Sublime Chord have to be cast as full-round actions but those acquired from the other class don't, with a caveat based on the accessibility to spell levels (thus, a Bard that somehow can cast 4th level spells may cast 4th level Sublime Chord spells as standard actions, but not 5th level spells; if the Bard then somehow gets the ability to cast its own 5th level spells, then the change happens). Mechanically it should be easy, but it's extremely hard to pull off regarding fluff.

    In the case of Divine Crusader they still get standard action spells because they cast an extremely limited amount of spells (one per spell level, several times). Because it's quite rare to improve that spell list (I dunno how it's ruled on the ICC, but as far as I know you can't apply tricks such as Sand Shaper into the Divine Crusader, because of the text. Even then, the spell list is rather limited and fixed; the most dangerous trick they can really pull off is getting Epic Spellcasting with only 10 levels of casting, and Epic Spellcasting really needs a revision. I won't deny that some domains are causes of concern (a Divine Crusader with the Time domain is frightening because it gains the ability to cast Time Stop, Freedom of Movement and Haste like nobody's business), but the variation between the domains is such that it may not merit providing them the full spellcasting progression; do consider that they also get half CL, something that punishes them.
  • 2011-08-13, 09:27 AM
    ocel
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Well I disagree with your assessment on Tome of Battle disciplines, but I respect your opinion regardless of my personal bias towards it... Actually this gives me an idea, is it possible to develop a system similar to exalted charms/martial arts with disciplines, for example create combos, more prequisites & other elements to create a variant sort of like yours only with-meta-magic for maneuvers. Perhaps something with combos?

    Back to the topic of this thread: Your version of incantations seems reasonable. Will we see the spell list expand from the srd, or more specific guidelines for determining spells-worthy of incantations? For instance, books from the spell compendium, or other supplements.
  • 2011-08-13, 11:34 AM
    T.G. Oskar
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ocel View Post
    Well I disagree with your assessment on Tome of Battle disciplines, but I respect your opinion regardless of my personal bias towards it... Actually this gives me an idea, is it possible to develop a system similar to exalted charms/martial arts with disciplines, for example create combos, more prequisites & other elements to create a variant sort of like yours only with-meta-magic for maneuvers. Perhaps something with combos?

    Let's expand a bit.

    Warblade, arguably one of the better classes and the one ToB class that's almost purely mundane, has Diamond Mind, Iron Heart (its one exclusive discipline), Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw and White Raven. The Warblade is the only class that can take by class progression alone the only two problem maneuvers out there (Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics), but those are mostly wide rulings on what the skills SHOULD do. Placing a limit on which skills can Iron Heart Surge remove, and specify that you can't get another action with White Raven Tactics (only give it to an ally). Aside from that, the Warblade is pretty solid, not overwhelming.

    Swordsage, the class with the worst/best recovery mechanic (the given one is made of suck, but they have all the excuses for Adaptive Style which is the best), has Desert Wind (exclusive, plus one of the two "supernatural" disciplines), Diamond Mind, Setting Sun (exclusive, yet mundane), Shadow Hand (the last exclusive, and the second "supernatural"), Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw. As you can see, they can't get the two problem maneuvers (Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics), but they get the stuff that normally martial characters would dream of (miss chances, invisibility, teleportation, flight, etc.) The ways they get them are pretty limited (Holocaust Cloak is more like Levitate rather than Fly, invisibility maneuver lasts for 1 turn, teleportation maneuver starts as standard action and then it's meant to improve and also has a 50 ft. limit), so limiting them furthermore seems like insulting to the one class that can keep up with casters up to an extent (and remember, all moves are 1/encounter until they recharge it, and they require a whopping full-round action to recover any maneuver, whether their own recovery maneuver or Adaptive Style).

    Crusader, the one with the wonkiest (and arguably the best) recovery mechanic, has only THREE disciplines; Devoted Spirit (their exclusive discipline), Stone Dragon and White Raven. By progression they have access only to ONE of the problem maneuvers (White Raven Tactics), and probably ONE problem stance (Immortal Fortitude, but that's more mundane than magical; by the way, a caster can do this at 9th level with Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity). Devoted Spirit is a discipline that borders on supernatural (because of the healing), but most of the tactics are limited to alignment, so having such a move like Strike of Righteous Vitality done as a full-round action limits their usefulness. Aside from that, they're pretty alright; I mean, their maneuvers are randomized every turn, so they probably won't have access to their maneuver at the moment they want to.

    Against a caster of the same level, the martial adepts are decent but not overwhelming. A Swordsage may pull off some impressive moves, but the caster has access to stuff like True Seeing, Blindsight (for Clerics and Druids), Arcane Sight (perfect for when the creature has magic items, which by 4th-5th level will be 100% of the times), Trace Teleport and Teleport Trap, amongst other spells. The caster can prepare a general, or specific, method to deal with any martial adept; what the martial adept can do is find a way to remain competitive despite the...oh, wait, unless they get to fly, the caster wins. Because no maneuver is ranged aside from Lightning Throw (yay for Warblades!) or a Desert Wind maneuver (yay for Sword...wait, fire resistance. Did I mention all full casters get Resist Energy at 3rd level, and that such a benefit improves with level?). Casters get to Fly at 5th level.

    So, making all standard action maneuvers full-round actions for the martial adept classes really hinders their utility, as they'll be forced to find ways to move as a swift action or else suffer. Because all maneuvers except a few are melee, they NEED to move in order to engage their enemy; what they get is a moderate boost to their damage. Some 1st level powers are really good (Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Clinging Shadow Strike, Shadow Blade Technique) and some stances are pretty nice (Punishing Stance, Blood in the Water), but others are only decent. Burning Blade, mind you, is a boost, not a strike, so making it a move or standard action is preposterous.

    As for "metaboosts"...well, the very concept of a boost is to improve not just your melee attacks but your maneuvers. Time Stands Still (a 9th level maneuver that ALREADY is a full-round action) plus Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip seems intimidating, but it's nothing at 17th level, and it consumes two maneuvers. That is a very simple combo, much like Pouncing Charge + Raging Mongoose, or TSS + Blood in the Water stance + high crit weapons (the damage begins to increase bit by bit), or any charge technique + Leading the Charge, or Flanking Maneuver + Tactics of the Wolf, or Clinging Shadow Strike/Obscuring Shadow Veil/Ghost Blade + Assassin's Stance... The current system already provides for such combos, but are limited in execution with one strike/one boost or counter. Martial Arts Combos as per Exalted are overwhelming, but exist on a different plane from maneuvers; since you need to expend Motes (and sometimes Willpower) to activate all charms at once, plus add all your boosts at once (such as the Perfections, which are essentially vanilla boosts) which costs more Motes, you can end up with abilities you can only use once per day (or worse, depending on your Mote regeneration). This can't be done with abilities that recharge by encounter, only with abilities usable per day and...well, that's exactly what led to 4e. Exalted isn't really the best way to handle D&D; sure, some epics are to be there, but in Exalted, you're already better than a 20th level D&D character by virtue of being a demigod throwing the laws of physics out (or rather, ignoring the base ones and working with the higher-end of the same laws). A 1st level D&D character, not even a magician, can compare with what an Exalted character can do right after character creation; a 20th level D&D character reaches only a bit of what an Exalted character can face at character creation, and then you add stuff like Abyssals or Infernals or Fair Folk...that's not really funny. An epic wizard may have a chance to beat a Neverborn or Yozi...if they don't start first. And quite probably, Time Stop is worth nothing to a single charm that might cost only 1-3 motes.

    Quote:

    Back to the topic of this thread: Your version of incantations seems reasonable. Will we see the spell list expand from the srd, or more specific guidelines for determining spells-worthy of incantations? For instance, books from the spell compendium, or other supplements.
    Maaaybe. SRD is mostly the easiest thing to fix, and where the most broken spells are (Gate, Wish, Miracle, Shapechange, etc.) Some spells are based on core spells, so they get indirectly fixed (for example, if I were to work on Tenser's Transformation, that would indirectly affect Nightstalker's Transformation and Mental Pinnacle as well). The guidelines are pretty extensive, so there's little need to expand them; exceptions, of course, are to be noted. The goal thus far is to deal with the problem SRD spells, rather than go any further; then, I can deal with problem spells of other places (Celerity, Consumptive Field, the Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity combo) bit by bit.
  • 2011-08-13, 02:31 PM
    Glimbur
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    This doesn't fix the problem. Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Web, Glitterdust, even Grease make no sense as incantations but are still battle-changers. Haste, Prayer, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and other multi-target short duration buffs also don't generally make sense as invocations due to their short duration and they also have a large effect on battles. Damage spells are more attractive since metamagic is cheaper and easier, but without fixing the spell lists you can't fix the caster v noncaster disparity. This does make it harder to make a wizard with his own army via Planar Binding who is resistant/immune to many things/everything due to layers of buffs, but it doesn't address the root problem: spellcasters have more options than non-spellcasters.

    I do like your metamagic change, though it does make spellcasters more powerful.
  • 2011-08-13, 02:43 PM
    Drachasor
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Hmm, I'll find time to read this whole thing (that's a lot text).

    I have started thinking about a magic fix that would involve treating all spells as "objects." Some of them might count as weapons wielded by the caster, others might count as creatures themselves. They'd all have hit points, etc, etc. Then with feats/class abilities open them up to grapples, disarms, sunder, etc, etc.
  • 2011-08-13, 03:28 PM
    T.G. Oskar
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    This doesn't fix the problem. Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Web, Glitterdust, even Grease make no sense as incantations but are still battle-changers. Haste, Prayer, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and other multi-target short duration buffs also don't generally make sense as invocations due to their short duration and they also have a large effect on battles. Damage spells are more attractive since metamagic is cheaper and easier, but without fixing the spell lists you can't fix the caster v noncaster disparity. This does make it harder to make a wizard with his own army via Planar Binding who is resistant/immune to many things/everything due to layers of buffs, but it doesn't address the root problem: spellcasters have more options than non-spellcasters.

    I do like your metamagic change, though it does make spellcasters more powerful.

    Sure, but it does address part of the problem. It's impossible (or rather, improbable) to make an easy fix working only with part of the system. As mentioned, spells with short durations or spells that are battle-changers can't make sense as incantations, but they may be dealt with in another way. By all means this isn't the only part of the ruling; it is but a part of the whole. A gestalt solution, if you may.

    However, to an extent, it does solve a few things. One of the big problems with the spellcaster is that if it can't do it on its own, it can summon a creature to do so. In this case, it's a bit more cost-effective to have a henchman than to summon the creature, or have an ally that can deal with some of the situations on its own. It can't solve everything because of how the spell system is written; in another attempt to fix, I mentioned that tackling the magic system in order to deal with spellcasters would require creating a new system from scratch, and this is a first step to that. The solution has to be integrated; the challenge is to make it modular (that it can exist on its own and solve something while keeping another which you consider fine and well.

    At its extent, spells as incantations deal with a minor, but considerable, deal of problem spells. Increasing the casting time of full spellcasters' spells deals a huge hit to action economy. Both are quite encompassing, but they aren't solutions on their own; however, because some people are used to dealing with things a different way, they may enjoy one part of the fix (as you mention with the metamagic alterations) but not the other (spells as incantations, which you dislike on terms of "not being enough" and "unable to deal with the other problem spells" and "not offering mundanes enough things"). I can't solve giving mundanes enough things by means of reducing magic to near-nothingness; I can make what mundanes DO have a bit more useful than the magic equivalent; to give mundanes more things to play with, it requires revamping the skills and feats to allow them to do so, and that, once again, equals making a new system.

    So yes, I understand it can't fix everything. But, being aware I share that point, does it do something reasonable in terms of reducing the power of spellcasters? I can't ask you if it's enough (certainly to you it isn't) but if it's reasonable enough. It allows those spells to remain in game, but it allows the DM greater control over them; a DM could simply make a banlist, but some spells may be necessary for other classes to keep up OR to solve certain situations. That, alongside how spellcasting is intertwined with the entire system, requires creative solutions rather than serious removals. Taking Tier 1 classes out of the game does quite a lot, but Tier 2 classes still remain; taking that still keeps Tier 3 classes, but some options are left out from the wealth of things that the game offers because those options are left out.

    As a final point: that doesn't mean other spells won't be dealt with. They just won't be dealt as incantations. BUT, and this is a big word on purpose, they can be treated differently. Haste is a formidable buff, but if you consider its effect, it works better on the meatier classes than on them (the bonus to speed is great, but if they can't move then it's pointless to have such a great boost to speed; furthermore, the +1 bonus to AC is kinda meh, while martial characters get an extra attack which they may exploit differently, such as allowing an extra grapple or trip with one of your iteratives and then the subsequent attack.

    As for metamagic: do consider that they're limited to a single metamagic. As per the current rules, you can't Maximize AND Empower AND cast the spell as a standard action; it requires you to choose between one of the three, and with some heavy feat expenditure between two of the three (the only way would be with Metamagic Rods, and that WILL eat your WBL and make you dependent on magic items as much, if not more, than the mundanes). It makes metamagic a bit more attractive, but less powerful on average; two spells as a full-round action at 1st level may be a cause of concern, but you're screwed if the opponents have reach because not even a 5-foot step will save you from the attacks of opportunity; remember that casting on the defensive freely no longer exists. It does require a more tactical application of said abilities, though.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Drachasor View Post
    I have started thinking about a magic fix that would involve treating all spells as "objects." Some of them might count as weapons wielded by the caster, others might count as creatures themselves. They'd all have hit points, etc, etc. Then with feats/class abilities open them up to grapples, disarms, sunder, etc, etc.

    Hmm...sorta like Incarnum? Wait...Sense Motive: [roll]1d20+2[/roll] I have no clue why my sarcasm detector is beeping like if it was very happy or something.
  • 2011-08-13, 03:37 PM
    Drachasor
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Hmm...sorta like Incarnum? Wait...Sense Motive: [roll]1d20+2[/roll] I have no clue why my sarcasm detector is beeping like if it was very happy or something.

    I am I guess sort a kinda (I've never actually read much of the Incarnum book).

    I meant more like:
    DM: The Enemy Wizard casts fireball on you
    Fighter: I attack it as a reaction using my Everything Dies ability <rolls> 23!
    DM: That hits
    Fighter: 25 damage
    DM: Ok, that kills it, so it does no damage. [Though perhaps it would just weaken it or whatever).

    Though perhaps Finger of Death would be better spell example.
  • 2011-08-13, 10:48 PM
    ocel
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Granted, although your explanation only entices me to tinker with Tome of Battle's mechanics in the indeterminable future, perhaps, we could work together on such a project? Although perhaps it is for the best we don't lest we unmake what all, alright most, have worked for each homebrew...balance. Edit: ok that is not the only thing but it is still one of the aspirations for homebrew.

    Anyway, I wouldn't mind testing the mechanics of your spell-casting variant on a side campaign when most of the incantations are inscribed. I'm willing to play conceptual tennis with you on the campaign's premise if you wish.
    Edit: Ah I almost forgot: Will we see Incantations for other forms of casting, including but not limited to psionics & invocations?
  • 2011-08-16, 08:01 PM
    T.G. Oskar
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ocel View Post
    Granted, although your explanation only entices me to tinker with Tome of Battle's mechanics in the indeterminable future, perhaps, we could work together on such a project? Although perhaps it is for the best we don't lest we unmake what all, alright most, have worked for each homebrew...balance. Edit: ok that is not the only thing but it is still one of the aspirations for homebrew.

    Anyway, I wouldn't mind testing the mechanics of your spell-casting variant on a side campaign when most of the incantations are inscribed. I'm willing to play conceptual tennis with you on the campaign's premise if you wish.
    Edit: Ah I almost forgot: Will we see Incantations for other forms of casting, including but not limited to psionics & invocations?

    Thus far, since Incantations would basically cover all spells and most psionic powers are basically duped spells, there would be little need for purely psionic incantations. There may be one or two powers, though, that may need a sweeping.

    As for invocations, those will remain untouched, as they are very few. They're best deal with a revision to the class itself, rather than a wider sweep, since most of the invocations are pretty lacking (I have issues with those that last 24 hours, since you'll get a huge boon but only use them once or twice per day, which kinda beats the "at-will" point.)

    Maneuver-wise, if you wish to deal with "metaboosts" or a similar trait, that I best leave to you. I find maneuvers to be pretty decent as they introduce to martial characters what they lack the most (variety), but that doesn't mean you'll necessarily agree. I'd rather deal with expanding those options, probably by creating splinter schools based off the base nine schools (much like how a school of combat can have several minor schools that teach the same principles but add a few unique moves).
  • 2011-08-21, 04:09 PM
    Cieyrin
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Finally got around to reading the Incantation post (When you update reserved posts, it's helpful to post that you did, as update emails only tell you about new posts, not changed ones...) and I can't wait to see what you do with the new incantation revisions and problem spells. I see the Teleport line making the list (though I wonder how that'll affect Wayfarer Guides...), as well as Legend Lore, Commune and the other major divinations.
  • 2011-08-23, 06:54 PM
    ocel
    Re: [3.5] Alternate Rules: (NE)w (R)ules for (F)ull spellcasters!
    Fair enough, I shall play-test your incantations when you've finished writing them all; & send a report & transcript of the sessions proceedings, along with other alerts.
  • Show 60 post(s) from this thread on one page
    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast