Please tell me we are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again

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Originally Posted by Keltest

I hope you don't honestly believe that naming themselves the Galactic Republic is enough to grant them legitimate authority over every planet in the galaxy.

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Originally Posted by Cazero

What are you babbling about? Of course the United States of America have legitimate authority over Brazil !

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Originally Posted by Vinyadan

If it's like the USA, less than one third of the population of the Americas might be living there, and only cover 1/4 of their surface. The European Union right now covers less than half of European territory. Macedonia doesn't actually cover more than 1/3 of the region Macedonia. And so on and so on...

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I've seen nothing to suggest that the Galactic Republic didn't at least try to maintain authority over the entire galaxy; the same doesn't apply to the EU or any but the craziest parts of the USA. The name thing was just a snappy way of pointing that out.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

I've seen nothing to suggest that the Galactic Republic didn't at least try to maintain authority over the entire galaxy; the same doesn't apply to the EU or any but the craziest parts of the USA. The name thing was just a snappy way of pointing that out.

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Whether or not theyre trying, theyre obviously not succeeding. Tattoine is explicitly not part of the republic, to the point where their currency isn't even valuable there. To say nothing of the separatist movement in the second and third movies.

More to the point, I'm fine with "the Jedi didn't have the power to do anything about slavery on Tatooine" as long as it's taken to its logical conclusion--i.e., Obi-Wan's thing about "the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice" is essentially posturing, for most of the galaxy the problem with the Empire was entirely about the active presence of the Empire and not the lack of presence of the Jedi, and Obi-Wan is being singularly self-absorbed when he ties the murder of the Jedi Order directly to "the dark times."

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Originally Posted by Kish

More to the point, I'm fine with "the Jedi didn't have the power to do anything about slavery on Tatooine" as long as it's taken to its logical conclusion--i.e., Obi-Wan's thing about "the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice" is essentially posturing, for most of the galaxy the problem with the Empire was entirely about the active presence of the Empire and not the lack of presence of the Jedi, and Obi-Wan is being singularly self-absorbed when he ties the murder of the Jedi Order directly to "the dark times."

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Or, its an ideal that the Jedi try to live up to, to the best of their ability. But being of finite numbers and power, they aren't able to literally uphold peace and justice in the entire literal galaxy, only most of it.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

I've seen nothing to suggest that the Galactic Republic didn't at least try to maintain authority over the entire galaxy

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Originally Posted by Watto

Republic credits? Republic credits are no good out here. I need something more real.

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Imean, that was kind of a big plot point. If someone won't even take a government's money, and doesn't consider it terribly real, I'd think it's safe to assume that said government doesn't really have any authority in that area, at the very least, and likely in a much larger surrounding area.

ETA:

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Originally Posted by Shmi

The Republic doesn't exist out here. We must survive on our own.

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Two characters saying point blank "the Republic has no authority here" in one of the movies. Honestly, if you didn't see anything to suggest the Galactic Republic didn't exert its authority over the entire galaxy, you weren't really paying attention. That the Jedi and a fourteen-year-old queen didn't know just really confirms how the Republic mostly ignores some deep Outer Rim sectors.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

I've seen nothing to suggest that the Galactic Republic didn't at least try to maintain authority over the entire galaxy; the same doesn't apply to the EU or any but the craziest parts of the USA. The name thing was just a snappy way of pointing that out.

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Okay, how does the Galactic Republic maintain authority? It's navy, to the extent it has one, is vestigial. Suitable for police actions, but Star Destroyers and the potential for solar conquest just flat doesn't exist before the Clone Wars. It's one of the reasons the Empire came into existence.

So the tools the Republic has are : 1) Jedi Knights and 2) Trade Embargo. There's not much they can do about their own home planet, but if you want to trade with the core, with Corellia and Kuat and Coruscant, you've got to play by their rules.

That would have no effect on Tatooine. It isn't a large market, and such market as it does have is already illegal anyway; putting the planet under embargo would have almost no effect whatsoever.

As towards Jedi knights -- well, that's all very well if the problem is a single black-caped Dark Lord in need of a lightsaber haircut. Or it could also work out if you had several factions that need a mediator. But when you've got a planetwide problem and a planetwide culture? One that you can't just slice in two with a lightsaber?

It's not going to work. And if the Jedi really did get involved in solving every planet's social ills , they'd spend all their time on nothing but , say, hunting down slavers in the middle of the Dune Sea, and is that really the best use of their time and energy?

No, it makes sense for the Republic to primarily let its own members sort out their internal problems, and send out the Jedi primarily when there's friction between Republic members (say, between Naboo and the Trade Defeation) , and not send them out to remake every planet in Coruscant's image. Not only is that a lot of time and energy, there's also a chance it will make things worse instead of better. Again, standardization and conformity was something the Empire was much, much larger on and the galaxy was not better for the change.

===

Thinking about it, while the Republic may claim to be galactic wide (and that's probably true, to the extent that member planets are probably spread throughout the galaxy) that does not mean that it claims sovereignty over every planet with intelligent life in the galaxy. I suspect it cannot coerce planets into joining, only invite them. And they probably don't invite every planet; there are probably some membership requirements in terms of sapient rights and technology, which Tatooine and similar planets do not meet and have no interest in doing so.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

From Star Wars Backstories: Darth Vader (newcanon book)



It is uncertain where Anakin was born. Some records say Anakin was born on Tatooine; other sources say Anakin and his mother, Shmi Skywalker, arrived on the remote planet of Tatooine when Anakin was very young.
Even though the Republic had outlawed slavery, Tatooine was in the galaxy's Outer Rim. On the distant planets, laws were difficult to enforce. The idea that "might makes right" was the law in these lands.


The implication is that it's nominally in the Republic, but because it's so far away, in practice, gangsters rule over it. "It's controlled by the Hutts" "The Hutts are gangsters" as TPM puts it.

I'd like to start by noting three points.
1. I said that it seemed like the Republic was trying to maintain authority over the entire galaxy, not that it succeeded. Those are two different things.
2. The fact that ending slavery on Tatooine was apparently not a priority for the Republic (or the Jedi) does not speak well of either. The fact that slavery seems nonexistent under the Empire (from what little we see of it) speaks even worse of the Republic.
3. It's been over a decade since I've seen the prequels. So if I miss a few details here and there, cut me a f*ing break, you fanboys! Not everyone has goshdang encyclopedic knowledge of every line and event in the effing prequels! The HFIL is wrong with you people? "Here's a single random line from a part of the movie that you forgot! You are an idiot for not accounting for it in your analysis!"

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Originally Posted by pendell

Okay, how does the Galactic Republic maintain authority? It's navy, to the extent it has one, is vestigial. Suitable for police actions, but Star Destroyers and the potential for solar conquest just flat doesn't exist before the Clone Wars. It's one of the reasons the Empire came into existence. So the tools the Republic has are : 1) Jedi Knights and 2) Trade Embargo.

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Not to put it too bluntly, but...that's kind of a problem in and of itself. I get it, autocracy is wrong, but at least it's not quite as miserable as anarchy. The United Nations has more enforcement power than that, and that's generally considered to be too weak to serve as a government (part of why national governments still exist). If the Galactic Republic was a federation of sub-galactic nations which usually enforce peace successfully, that would be fine, but the only notable government we see evidence of on a level between planet and Republic is the Trade Federation, a glorified megacorporation. (Unless, of course, I've forgotten another minor line, in which case feel free to rake me over the coals for not remembering every detail of a movie I saw when I was six or so.)

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

I'd like to start by noting three points.
1. I said that it seemed like the Republic was trying to maintain authority over the entire galaxy, not that it succeeded. Those are two different things.
2. The fact that ending slavery on Tatooine was apparently not a priority for the Republic (or the Jedi) does not speak well of either. The fact that slavery seems nonexistent under the Empire (from what little we see of it) speaks even worse of the Republic.

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1. Imean, honestly, if they're not successful, what does it really matter? They could try all they want, it doesn't affect whether or not they have influence if their efforts fail (or, even if it could affect it, we know they don't have influence because we're told so). And since your initial problem sounded like "the Republic is bad because it doesn't care about fixing things like this," then not being able to fix things like that seems like a fairly big counter argument.
2. See 1.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

2. The fact that ending slavery on Tatooine was apparently not a priority for the Republic (or the Jedi) does not speak well of either. The fact that slavery seems nonexistent under the Empire (from what little we see of it) speaks even worse of the Republic.

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??? We know slaves still existed on Tatooine in the time of Jabba the Hutt, since he kept slave dancing girls and even fed them to his pet Rancor if he wasn't happy with them. The fact that Owen and Beru didn't keep slaves speaks well of them -- but their family wasn't keeping slaves in the prequel trilogy either, and slavery was most definitely an issue then.

Off-film, "wookiee slaves" were a tremendous part of the old EU, and I don't think that was ever retconned away.

In the Ep. III novelization, there is a window into Count Dooku's mindset , which is that it is not at all a coincidence that almost all of the Seperatists were nonhumans such as the Trade Federation and Geonosis. Part of the Sith's plan was to use the clone wars to crush their power and establish a human-dominated Empire. The Empire in the time of the OT was a New Order in which humans were the Ubermensch of a Nazi-like regime and aliens were second-class citizens at best. I don't believe slavery was spelled out in the OT nearly as strongly as it was in the prequels, but I find it hard to believe it didn't exist. Life under the Empire was better for humans living in the Core and much, much worse for everyone else.

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Not to put it too bluntly, but...that's kind of a problem in and of itself. I get it, autocracy is wrong, but at least it's not quite as miserable as anarchy. The United Nations has more enforcement power than that, and that's generally considered to be too weak to serve as a government (part of why national governments still exist). If the Galactic Republic was a federation of sub-galactic nations which usually enforce peace successfully, that would be fine, but the only notable government we see evidence of on a level between planet and Republic is the Trade Federation, a glorified megacorporation. (Unless, of course, I've forgotten another minor line, in which case feel free to rake me over the coals for not remembering every detail of a movie I saw when I was six or so.)

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I think the Republic has been modeled on the US under the old Articles of Confederation . The central government had a great deal less power to make war and levy taxation than it did under the constitution. It appears that the Republic is a fairy-tale nation whose lack of military power and central government is supposed to be made up for by the existence of Jedi wizards.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

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Originally Posted by pendell

wookie

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Wookiee. 2 Es.

It would be ubermensch. Untermensch means "inferior people."

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Originally Posted by Kish

It would be ubermensch. Untermensch means "inferior people."

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Noted and corrected, as has the spelling of "Wookiee".

Respectfully,

Brian P.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

1. Imean, honestly, if they're not successful, what does it really matter? They could try all they want, it doesn't affect whether or not they have influence if their efforts fail (or, even if it could affect it, we know they don't have influence because we're told so). And since your initial problem sounded like "the Republic is bad because it doesn't care about fixing things like this," then not being able to fix things like that seems like a fairly big counter argument.
2. See 1.

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See the point I made to pendell.

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Originally Posted by pendell

??? We know slaves still existed on Tatooine in the time of Jabba the Hutt, since he kept slave dancing girls and even fed them to his pet Rancor if he wasn't happy with them. The fact that Owen and Beru didn't keep slaves speaks well of them -- but their family wasn't keeping slaves in the prequel trilogy either, and slavery was most definitely an issue then.

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My bad. There's no indication that legal slavery existed during the Empire. Given that illegal slavery is a thing even in the US, I'd still call that a win for the Empire...

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Off-film, "wookiee slaves" were a tremendous part of the old EU, and I don't think that was ever retconned away.

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...if it wasn't for that.
In my defense, my experience with the EU is a copy of Death Troopers I borrowed from a friend and maybe a few episodes of the Clone Wars cartoon. (Same goes for the whole official-Imperial-human-supremacy thing. The only indication of that in the actual films was that all major Imperial characters were human, and the Rebel Alliance wasn't that much more diverse.)

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I think the Republic has been modeled on the US under the old Articles of Confederation .

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That's even worse!

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It appears that the Republic is a fairy-tale nation whose lack of military power and central government is supposed to be made up for by the existence of Jedi wizards.

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Putting aside how foolish it would be to entrust the safety and liberty of the galaxy to a group smaller than the Galactic Senate...it doesn't seem to have worked.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

See the point I made to pendell.



My bad. There's no indication that legal slavery existed during the Empire. Given that illegal slavery is a thing even in the US, I'd still call that a win for the Empire...

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Wait, let me see if I have this right.

You have no objection to slavery taking place within the Empire (and even call it a win for the Empire) on a planet that they seemingly control (they occupy and patrol it on-planet and in orbit, with no objection or surprise from the locals).

Meanwhile, you decry the Republic for not stopping that same slavery in territory that it explicitly doesn't control.

....i don't even know where to start.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

If the Galactic Republic was a federation of sub-galactic nations which usually enforce peace successfully, that would be fine, but the only notable government we see evidence of on a level between planet and Republic is the Trade Federation, a glorified megacorporation.

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One is a pretty small sample size, though; especially when we're seeing it because the story needed an antagonist that'd draw the Republic's attention so it'd dispatch Jedi to kick off the plot with.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

Wait, let me see if I have this right.
You have no objection to slavery taking place within the Empire (and even call it a win for the Empire) on a planet that they seemingly control (they occupy and patrol it on-planet and in orbit, with no objection or surprise from the locals).
Meanwhile, you decry the Republic for not stopping that same slavery in territory that it explicitly doesn't control.
....i don't even know where to start.

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I'd recommend some reading comprehension.
Under the Republic, slavery seems to be legal on Tatooine. Under the Empire, it's only practiced by criminals. This moves the status of slavery from 18th-century America to 20th-century America. That's hardly perfect, but I can't fault the Empire for failing to completely stop slavery in less than a generation when our world has failed to do so at all. The Old Republic, on the other hand, existed for a thousand generations. For slavery to exist openly after all that time speaks poorly of their priorities and/or their ability to do squat.

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Originally Posted by Jasdoif

One is a pretty small sample size, though; especially when we're seeing it because the story needed an antagonist that'd draw the Republic's attention so it'd dispatch Jedi to kick off the plot with.

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You misunderstand. I'm not saying that we only see megacorporations, therefore megacorporations run everything. I'm saying that we see almost nothing, therefore almost nothing runs anything.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

I'd recommend some reading comprehension.
Under the Republic, slavery seems to be legal on Tatooine.

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Funny that you recommend reading comprehension, since at no point has anyone other than you claimed that Tatooine is under the control of the Republic, and TPM explicitly states they are not under control of the Republic. Slavery cannot be legal on Tatooine under the Republic, since a.) slavery is explicitly illegal in the Republic, and 2.) more importantly, Tatooine is not part of the Republic what part of this are you having trouble understanding?

Imean, sure, something that dismantles your entire argument is pretty damned inconvenient, so ignoring it is.... well, still a god-awful debate tactic, but hey, it's all you've got going for you, so good job keeping at it, I guess?

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SHMI: He deserves better than a slave's life.

QUI-GON: Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early. The Force is unusually strong with him, that much is clear.

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Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

You misunderstand. I'm not saying that we only see megacorporations, therefore megacorporations run everything. I'm saying that we see almost nothing, therefore almost nothing runs anything.

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One is still a pretty small sample size; especially when we're seeing the difference between "nothing" and "almost nothing" because the story needed an antagonist that'd draw the Republic's attention so it'd dispatch Jedi to kick off the plot with.

I mean, if the Republic didn't need to rely on military force for "peace" with any degree of frequency in the prior millennium or so, that'd still be "usually enforce peace successfully"...regardless of how unlikely it might seem on the surface.

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Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb

Hope this helps.

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Indeed it does. There's also

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Originally Posted by The Clone Wars (movie)

PALPATINE: The Hutts control the Outer Rim...and we'll need their space lanes in order to move our troops.

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Originally Posted by The Clone Wars (animated)

PADME AMIDALA: Perhaps now you will allow the Republic to use your trade routes, and hostilities can come to an end.
JABBA THE HUTT: «Agreed. A treaty is in order.»

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

My bad. There's no indication that legal slavery existed during the Empire. Given that illegal slavery is a thing even in the US, I'd still call that a win for the Empire...

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It depends on the extent to which illegal slavery is tacitly tolerated by the government that banned it. In the Reconstruction South, it was never technically legal after emancipation to murder black people (or white civil rights activists.) That being said, the local authorities did little to nothing to investigate such murders, and often remained willfully blind as they arrested blacks and/or civil rights activists only to release them without charge at 2 a.m. into the waiting lynch mob.

By that metric, the fact that no legal murders occurred in the South is something you'd call a win for Jim Crow.

The Empire's excuse for what it's done to Kashyyyk and the Wookiees in the newcanon wasn't "they're criminals" but "they're nonsapient" - they downgraded them to the legal status of animals.

"Legally enslaving rebels" also takes place, in Lost Stars.

And from TCW (Season 4, Zygerria arc) it's made clear that the Sith Empire of the past was basically built on slavery - and that Palpatine plans on establishing a new Sith Empire run the same way.

I'm pretty ashamed of myself for missing this bit.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

I'd recommend some reading comprehension.

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I generally don't like forums that are too heavy-handed in terms of moderator interference, but I don't think I'd mind if a moderator had the power to forcibly affix the Andi Badge of Self-Awareness to someone's avatar.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

Funny that you recommend reading comprehension, since at no point has anyone other than you claimed that Tatooine is under the control of the Republic, and TPM explicitly states they are not under control of the Republic. Slavery cannot be legal on Tatooine under the Republic, since a.) slavery is explicitly illegal in the Republic, and 2.) more importantly, Tatooine is not part of the Republic what part of this are you having trouble understanding?

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I've responded to that point repeatedly. Not gonna bother doing so again.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

[Hutts]

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Assuming that the Hutts are actually a unified organization and not just separate groups of criminals that follow a common "pirate's code"...that changes the apparent multi-planetary governments from "a weak confederacy and some megacorporations" to "a weak confederation, some megacorporations, and criminal syndicates". That's worse.
If those are the only people running the galaxy, there's a problem. Which is my point.

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Originally Posted by Xyril

It depends on the extent to which illegal slavery is tacitly tolerated by the government that banned it. In the Reconstruction South, it was never technically legal after emancipation to murder black people (or white civil rights activists.) That being said, the local authorities did little to nothing to investigate such murders, and often remained willfully blind as they arrested blacks and/or civil rights activists only to release them without charge at 2 a.m. into the waiting lynch mob.

By that metric, the fact that no legal murders occurred in the South is something you'd call a win for Jim Crow.

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Um...there's still slavery in the USA today. What do you think human trafficking is? (Okay, some of it is illegal immigration, but there's also slavery in there.)

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Originally Posted by Xyril

I generally don't like forums that are too heavy-handed in terms of moderator interference, but I don't think I'd mind if a moderator had the power to forcibly affix the Andi Badge of Self-Awareness to someone's avatar.

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Your wit shall never be equaled. Exceeded, often, but never equaled.
If you've got a criticism of my arguments, say it. Insults are just going to annoy me, and I get a lot ruder when I'm annoyed.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

Assuming that the Hutts are actually a unified organization and not just separate groups of criminals that follow a common "pirate's code"...that changes the apparent multi-planetary governments from "a weak confederacy and some megacorporations" to "a weak confederation, some megacorporations, and criminal syndicates". That's worse.
If those are the only people running the galaxy, there's a problem.

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Going by Wookieepedia's descriptions - there's an overlap - the Grand Council are the rulers of the planet Hutta, and also the leaders of a powerful crime syndicate:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hutt_Clan
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Hutt_Council

In their capacity as gangsters, they're powerful enough that even during the Clone Wars, the Republic tries to court their favour, in return for access to space lanes controlled by them.

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Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

I've responded to that point repeatedly. Not gonna bother doing so again.

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So, in GreatWyrmGoldworld, governments with no authority over a planet are responsible for the happenings planet, but governments with actual authority over a planet get a free pass on those same things happening on the planet. Gotcha.

In no particular order....


Near as I can determine, the Republic not having a significant army in the prequels was the result of questions like "How do we reconcile the effectively military-less Republic portrayed in the prequel-era Old Republic with the Republic military portrayed in the Knights-of-the-Old-Republic era Old Republic?", and something like "hey, voluntary demilitarization is popular, right?" was the answer that prevailed. How that arrangement remained tenable for so long wasn't a point of concern.


By and large, Star Wars was the Outer Rim. I mean, let's look at the worlds/systems of the original trilogy's scenes by region:

• Outer Rim: Bespin, Dagobah, Endor, Hoth, Tatooine, Yavin.
• Core Worlds: Alderaan.

So the only world not in the Outer Rim didn't survive its appearance. It seems that even with its vast military, the Empire isn't that much more effective at policing the entire Outer Rim than the Republic was.


It's probably not a coincidence that the bulk of the Separatists' resources came from large commercial groups, who were understandably not thrilled about paying more taxes to the Republic for results they already knew they wouldn't see.

Having read the most recent strip, it makes so much more sense:

The OP was actually Belkar, who thought it would be hilarious to trick the forum into an argument about Star Wars just to annoy Elan and Roy.

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Originally Posted by 137ben

Having read the most recent strip, it makes so much more sense:

The OP was actually Belkar, who thought it would be hilarious to trick the forum into an argument about Star Wars just to annoy Elan and Roy.

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We don't exactly need to be tricked into arguing about Star Wars