DnD Languages and real world languages
If you would assign real world languages to DnD languages based on how similar they are (not script, just speech), what would you assign to each one. Asking because I want to ephazise difference between languages in my game so I can just put phrase to Google Translate (bad, but close enough and it's fantasy) and speak the translation if somebody speaks language somebody doesn't know.
Languages I need are:
Dwarvish, Elvish, Giant, Gnomish, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, Infernal, Primordial (if you can, you can give each one different language), Sylvan, Undercommon, Druidic, and Theives' cant
Some guidelines: Our common is English and Finnish (because we live in Finland, but also speak lot of english) and if the language isn't in Google translate or some other online translator, change it to what is closest that is in some online translator.
I know, this is lot to ask, but if there are any language experts or people who are willing to do lot of research, could you help me out? Huge thanks in advance!
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
For Primoridal -> Air / Earth / Fire / Water, you might look at something like
Latin -> French / Spanish / Italian / Portuguese
... where each "dialect" is a full language.
In terms of Abyssal & Infernal, you should pick neighboring national languages which you'd be making fun of anyway.
For Elven, you could use Tolkien's language(s). There are online resources to help with translations.
Orc = Klingon, you know it in your heart that it is true.
Giant or Gnome or Dwarf -- pick an ancient Scandinavian language, something with runes. I bet you know those better than I do. :smallwink:
Common = English, mostly thanks to the Internet.
For Celestial, I like an inflected language like Chinese, but that might also be due to the influence of Exalted and reading about the mythical Celestial Bureaucracy.
When you've nailed down your picks, please do post your final conversion list.
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eemeli
If you would assign real world languages to DnD languages based on how similar they are (not script, just speech), what would you assign to each one. Asking because I want to ephazise difference between languages in my game so I can just put phrase to Google Translate (bad, but close enough and it's fantasy) and speak the translation if somebody speaks language somebody doesn't know.
Languages I need are:
Dwarvish, Elvish, Giant, Gnomish, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, Infernal, Primordial (if you can, you can give each one different language), Sylvan, Undercommon, Druidic, and Theives' cant
Some guidelines: Our common is English and Finnish (because we live in Finland, but also speak lot of english) and if the language isn't in Google translate or some other online translator, change it to what is closest that is in some online translator.
I know, this is lot to ask, but if there are any language experts or people who are willing to do lot of research, could you help me out? Huge thanks in advance!
The only help I can give you is inspiration from my own world building. I am a terrible worldbuilder and use the map of Eurasia and Northern Africa as a rough placement for where tribes come from. So I am just pulling languages from where I have the largest concentration of that particular people.
Dwarvish: Icelandic. Modern speakers of Icelandic can read the Prose Eddas as written just fine, and it makes sense for a tradition bound, long lived race to have a language that barely changes over the course of generations.
Elvish: I would say Irish (Gaelige), as it's a Celtic language, but is more flowing in my experience than Scottish Gaelic.
Giant: Greek
Gnomish/Halfling: No idea. I would just give them an Old English/Finnish dialect and say that they have lost their old tongue due to various diasporas and having to fit in with the current regime of the area.
Goblin: Sanskrit. The hierarchy between the subraces that keeps people in their place really invokes the idea of the historical Indian caste system
Orc: Russian/Mongolian (I place Orcs on the mongolian steppes and farther North
Celestial: Hebrew (I think they already use the Hebrew alphabet for the language, and it will likely have some resonance with the table. Perhaps not, I am not sure what your table's likely experience with Judeo-Christian themes.
Draconic: German. It fits well with the fact that Kobold means "Goblin" in German.
Infernal: Latin. It sounds so grandiose and evil in English
Abyssal: French no good ideas :smalltongue:
Primordial: no idea. Perhaps Esperanto if you want to do a "First language" idea, since it is supposed to be one of the easiest languages to learn.
Undercommon: No really good ideas. Is there a language that shares common ties to Finnish that has diverged since? Might be the best way to do it.
Sylvan: Perhaps use Scottish Gaelic here for ties between Elven and Sylvan.
Druidic: No good ideas. If you have a better idea for Primordial, perhaps a similar language for Druidic would work.
Thieve's Cant: I would use Cockney Rhyming Slang personally, but that isn't in Google Translate.
This is really surface level breakdown. Someone else probably has much better ideas than my list. Mine is based a lot off of laziness in world building, so take it with a grain of salt.
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eemeli
If you would assign real world languages to DnD languages based on how similar they are (not script, just speech), what would you assign to each one. Asking because I want to ephazise difference between languages in my game so I can just put phrase to Google Translate (bad, but close enough and it's fantasy) and speak the translation if somebody speaks language somebody doesn't know.
Languages I need are:
Dwarvish, Elvish, Giant, Gnomish, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, Infernal, Primordial (if you can, you can give each one different language), Sylvan, Undercommon, Druidic, and Theives' cant
Some guidelines: Our common is English and Finnish (because we live in Finland, but also speak lot of english) and if the language isn't in Google translate or some other online translator, change it to what is closest that is in some online translator.
I know, this is lot to ask, but if there are any language experts or people who are willing to do lot of research, could you help me out? Huge thanks in advance!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nifft
For Primoridal -> Air / Earth / Fire / Water, you might look at something like
Latin -> French / Spanish / Italian / Portuguese
... where each "dialect" is a full language.
In terms of Abyssal & Infernal, you should pick neighboring national languages which you'd be making fun of anyway.
For Elven, you could use Tolkien's language(s). There are online resources to help with translations.
Orc = Klingon, you know it in your heart that it is true.
Giant or Gnome or Dwarf -- pick an ancient Scandinavian language, something with runes. I bet you know those better than I do. :smallwink:
Common = English, mostly thanks to the Internet.
For Celestial, I like an inflected language like Chinese, but that might also be due to the influence of Exalted and reading about the mythical Celestial Bureaucracy.
When you've nailed down your picks, please do post your final conversion list.
I have found online translators for Tolkien's Sindarin and Noldor languages quite lacking, so I tend to use Gaelic (Irish, Scottish or Welsh, whatever sound nicer) and modify it a bit to make it more musical-sounding.
For Dwarven, I use germanic languages: German, Dutch, Norvegian... whatever sounds more likely to break your jaws while trying to pronounce it...).
Use some Latin language for Halflings. Few people can speak Romanian, so they aren't likely to identify it...
Not sure about Gnomes. Greek, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Finnish or Polish?
For Giants, you could use Russian.
Genies come from Arabic folklore, so I favor using Arabic for the Elemental Planes. If you need to make Ignan, Terran, Aquan and Aerian very different from each other, use Arabic, Persian, Chinese, Hindi or some other non-European language.
For Sylvan, try some non-european language, like Hawaian, Nahuatl, Mayan or Thailandese.
For Celestials, I would suggest Hebrew, but it will probably not sound beautiful enough; everything will fall short, in fact... You could try Greek or Chinese. They say Wolof and Bengali sound very nice too... whatever sounds most beautiful to you will do...
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
This subject comes up regularly and every time I have to go with what could be called the 'nay' crowd.
Don't bother mapping fantasy languages to real world languages, it makes little to no sense. For starters, languages are pretty much arbitrarily assigned based on some vague notion of 'I think elves are Celts' or whatever. Also, few players, if any, know enough languages to make it worthwhile so what you are stuck with is 'this one language I don't know is totally identical to this other language I don't know'. Granted, there are some obvious ties for game cultures based on RL cultures - it would be frightfully odd if a pseudo-Viking culture didn't speak something akin to Old Norse - but for, say planar languages, how does it make any sort of sense for immortal, inhuman, alien elementals to speak Tagalog?
What is far more interesting and useful is to make a ****ton of setting languages and determine how they are related to eachother based on history, culture, etc., and determine how easy intelligibility between them is. Something like this.
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BWR
This subject comes up regularly and every time I have to go with what could be called the 'nay' crowd.
Don't bother mapping fantasy languages to real world languages, it makes little to no sense. For starters, languages are pretty much arbitrarily assigned based on some vague notion of 'I think elves are Celts' or whatever. Also, few players, if any, know enough languages to make it worthwhile so what you are stuck with is 'this one language I don't know is totally identical to this other language I don't know'. Granted, there are some obvious ties for game cultures based on RL cultures - it would be frightfully odd if a pseudo-Viking culture didn't speak something akin to Old Norse - but for, say planar languages, how does it make any sort of sense for immortal, inhuman, alien elementals to speak Tagalog?
What is far more interesting and useful is to make a ****ton of setting languages and determine how they are related to eachother based on history, culture, etc., and determine how easy intelligibility between them is. Something like
this.
Even though I gave suggestions like I did, I do in general agree with you. The only reason I would do that sort of mapping is if I want to do place names that seem reasonable and that match up with the surrounding place names for the area. I wouldn't go to the point of phrases in the language.
The only thing I would do for planar tongues is potentially tie them as ancestors to mortal tongues. But that's because I have a setting specific concepts of Major Deities also being arch-elementals. So Moridan is also the Lord of the Plane of Earth itself. After the Age of Creation, the gods become more mortal in description, and become something akin to the mortal societies that they are the patrons of.
Otherwise, I would make planar languages that to mortal ears sound like the elements that they come from. Terra is slow and rumbling, and sound like rock breaking and moving across each other, with shouts sounding like the roar of an landslide or volcanic explosion. That sort of thing.
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
+1 for "Don't do this", sorry.
I'll add an exception, cause I do it in my games: human languages in your setting can easily be derived from culture equivalents.
Example: the OP said they're using English and Finnish for common, so maybe the neighbouring human lands in one direction speak Dutch (related to English), and in the other direction they speak Estonian (related to Finnish). And the scholarly language of ancient books might be Latin. And so on.
I prefer this approach, as then you're not accidentally implying that any real world culture/nation is like a made up fantasy non-human species.
People can be upset if you seem to suggest they are other than (i.e. less than) human.
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
If people get upset over what language your orc speak, maybe find different people to game with. Unless you are publishing your setting internationally, you don't have to worry about this, and even if you are, leaving a small disclaimer of "based on national stereotypes" should do it.
The big problem
It's the verisimilitude thing. Your languages should make sense systematically in the same way real languages do. If elves and dwarves lived next to each other for a long time, there'll be significant overlap, kinda like English and French. You can have some weird cases like Hungarian (entirely different language group), but even then, a lot of Hungarian terminology, if not sentence structure, has slavic (mostly Slovak, followed by Croatian, Bulgarian, Polish and Czech) roots.
This means that you can suddenly find out that this one group of people should have a related language that really doesn't fit into what you want them to sound like. How you solve this depends - maybe just alter the backstory of the culture, or bite the bullet and change it.
Dwarvish
Traditionally uses german or one of the nordic or scandinavian languages. Tolkien dwarves would also fit with yiddish, a secret language not for outsiders, but if the dwarves are actually greedy, well, you have a bit of a stereotype there.
Elvish
IIRC, Tolkien used Finnish or Icelandic for base - since you are using Finnish for common, that leaves Icelandic.
Giant, Gnomish, Goblin
Depends too much on what your versions of these folks look like. You could well end up with Japanese for giants (via association with oni).
Halfling
Since these are hobbits, whatever sounds super rural to your ears. Could be a dialect, actually, since hobbits tend to not have their own kingdoms. Actually, yiddish may once more be a decent fit because of that.
Orc
If they are raiders, one of the nomadic languages fits - cuiman, mongol, pecheneg, etc etc. If they are tribal, maybe sub-saharan Africa is the way to go. Again, depends on what your orcs are like.
Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, Primordial
These are almost like they belong to a different world, and a lot depends on your mythology. Was the world created via speaking/is there a true naming language? Then these should be related to it, possibly dialects of it.
Latin seems to be a popular choice, as well as greek, but you could go completely foreign and pick mandarin or mayan or something.
Draconian
Possibly related to the above, and depends on what your version of dragon lore is. Could well be purely telepathic.
Sylvan
Same as draconian.
Undercommon
Only makes sense as a separate language if there is practically zero contact with underdark (otherwise it's just a version of common, maybe with some additions to incorporate tentacles), in that case make it very foreign. Chinese languages or Indian may work well.
Druidic, Theives' cant
These are, in all honesty, stupid. They don't have enough base speakers or organization to really be able to survive or even develop as languages in the first place. What these would be is some specific terminology coded into otherwise normal or artificial words.
RL cant was created as a metaphor to confuse people not in the know listening in on a conversation, kinda like a cipher. It was often rhyming to make it easier to remember. Druidic would be, if it would even exist, something like IT people talking to each other. If I tell you that hashes in your instances can be read by client apps and should therefore be at least salted, it sounds like gibberish, even though it isn't.
Common
This is another language that shouldn't exist. Only close thing to it is Latin or English, but that is just a cultural language that became dominant because of said culture taking over most of the known world in some way.
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Martin Greywolf
If people get upset over what language your orc speak, maybe find different people to game with. Unless you are publishing your setting internationally, you don't have to worry about this, and even if you are, leaving a small disclaimer of "based on national stereotypes" should do it.
...
I'm not going to get into another argument here about the right to be offensive behind closed doors, but I am going to call you out on your thinking that your so-called disclaimer there would provide you with any protection if you went public with that.
In the rest of your post, you even give a good example of why it's a bad idea - Yiddish, if used for greedy Dwarves, triggering accusations of antisemitism.
Surely you can see that this applies to any RL language given to a fantasy non-human species - any non-human ugliness, any nasty traits could be taken as an insult to speakers of that language.
In the spirit of friendly discussion, I'm going to keep calm, and leave it there. This topic has a tendency to really wind me up.
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
It's generally a bad idea. Now that's out of the way.
First let's establish our language groups. Based on what uses what writing system I believe we can get the following:
Common Family: Common, Halfling.
Tool Family: Dwarvish, Gnome.
Fancy Family: Elf, Sylvain.
Savage Family: Orc, Goblin.
Scaly Family: Draconic.
Planar Family: You know the bunch.
And so on. Although we should probably admit that there's more languages in each family, or that some of these families don't exist (I'd probably lump Draconic in with Dwarvish and Gnome if language families are going to be important), and that most races should have at least two or three languages. But ignoring that, we could then assign a RL language family to each in-game language family or two, and use those languages to represent them.
As an aside, Thieves' Cant is more a set of slang than a language, and each group of thieves should really have their own.
Now what would be more fun is thinking about what the distinguishing features of a language are. For example, maybe in Dwarvish the verb always goes first and the noun always goes at the end of the sentence.
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
for dnd specifically, we don't bother. i mean, sure, we could use ecclesiastic latin for celestial, death metal growls for infernal, some kind of germanic language for dwarves, but we're more invested in the story in general than we are about the languages used. that's not even counting the fact that golarion has specific human dialects out the wazoo on top of the different racial languages.
it's not about offending anyone (hell, our cleric comes from not-scandinavia and my character comes from not-marseille and yes, we use the different french accents to speak in character), it's about streamlining the game with only the important details mattering.
if linguistics are a key part of your game, i'd argue with using the different language families for "close" languages. elven and fey can be one branch, dwarvish another shared by... gnomes? guess?, and assign one dnd family to a real-life family. i'd go for germanic and/or scandinavian for the races of the stone due to their adeptness at industry, celtic or gaelic to the fey races, but beyond that i'm at a loss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bogwoppit
I'm not going to get into another argument here about the right to be offensive behind closed doors, but I am going to call you out on your thinking that your so-called disclaimer there would provide you with any protection if you went public with that.
In the rest of your post, you even give a good example of why it's a bad idea - Yiddish, if used for greedy Dwarves, triggering accusations of antisemitism.
Surely you can see that this applies to any RL language given to a fantasy non-human species - any non-human ugliness, any nasty traits could be taken as an insult to speakers of that language.
In the spirit of friendly discussion, I'm going to keep calm, and leave it there. This topic has a tendency to really wind me up.
in the past, i used hebrew as the dwarven language. not because they are greedy, but because tolkien specifically created his dwarves with the old warlike hebrews in mind. nowadays, speaking yiddish is more a sign that you're a new-yorker than you are a greedy jew. i like to think we're past "le péril juif" in this day and age.
besides, scots have a tendency to be as guilty of avarice, if not more. there's a reason dwarves are commonly depicted speaking with a scottish accent: hard as hell in a fight, usually dour if not downright boorish, good with metalworking and stonesmithing, angry drunks... i kinda just resumed your average glaswegian according to tvtropes. i also resumed your average denizen of most dwarven/dwarvish settlements.
say, op, you should use "proper" french as your high-elf language: overly complicated language? check. one wrong word changes the meaning of your sentence? check. snobby and elitist? check. drinks wine? elves are snooty parisians.
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
Well the reason I said I woulld use celtic languages for elven languages is that Tolkien drawed heavily from Irish folklore when he created his elves. Nordic elves are often more like trolls or dwarves than to tolkienesque elves...
As for Dwarves, Tolkien's dwarves come straight out of german folklore, mostly from nordic folklore and mythology.
For Halflings and Gnomes I just recommended languages that were connected to those assigned to Elves and Dwarves, but sounded very different...
I recommended Russian for Giants because of how often a giant, ogre or humanoid dragon is the villain in russian tales.
I already said that I recommended Arabic for Genies because they come from Arabic folklore. Persian folklore uses them too. India has rakshasas and yakshas, who often play similar roles to genies and have similar powers. Chinese mythology have yaoguei, which are strongly influenced by hindu rakshasas and yakshas.
For Celestials I recommended Hebrew because in Europe it was often said Hebrew was the original language given by God to mortals and maybe to angels too. I recommended the other languages because people say they sound really beautiful...
As for Sylvan, I proposed cultures that have lots of myths about forest spirits...
So you see, I wasn't saying that those fantasy creatures resemble any real culture, I was just referencing mythical and folklorical connections...
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mith
Thieve's Cant: I would use Cockney Rhyming Slang personally, but that isn't in Google Translate.
Or just borrow heavily from Planescape's cant. Given that it was based largely on rhyming slang its a really good place to look first. As a plus it is already English, you just need to have weird work associations and a rhyming dictionary. Or as always The Google abides: http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/
Languages I need are:
- Dwarvish - I'd go with a Nordic language, maybe Icelandic. I did use Estonian once though.
- Elvish - Irish Gaelic, maybe
- Giant - Russian is too much fun not to use. Do svidaniya tiny creatures!
- Gnomish - A different Nordic language, maybe Danish
- Goblin - Japanese, if only because I think it works well for Hobgoblins
- Halfling - English
- Orc - I think Zulu might be an interesting choice, again because unless you live in Africa you've never been exposed to this language
- Abyssal - Assyrian its not in Google translate, but there are few guides on the interweebs for this
- Celestial - I'm liking Hebrew as a suggestion. Other options might be
- Draconic - Thu'um from Skyrim; as a bonus you can find fonts for written text as well. https://www.thuum.org/translator.php
- Infernal - Babylonian as deal as a Assyrian - it also helps that it is related to Assyrian but the two cultures hated each other and was around at the same time as ancient Hebrew
- Primordial (if you can, you can give each one different language) - Frisian, Galacian, Catalan and Spanish - otherwise Persian and related languages like Farsi or Tajik.
- Sylvan - Hawaiian, has a nice vowel intensive flow that is easy to pronounce once you understand how
- Undercommon - Persian, just because
- Druidic - its a conlang so any current conlang should work - Esparanto might be fun.
Re: DnD Languages and real world languages
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beleriphon
Or just borrow heavily from Planescape's cant. Given that it was based largely on rhyming slang its a really good place to look first. As a plus it is already English, you just need to have weird work associations and a rhyming dictionary. Or as always The Google abides:
http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/
Or you could use Thieves' Cant, maybe?
That's a link to the full text of a dictionary of criminal slang, from the early 19th century, originally published in the very late 18th - 1785, I think.
