Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
Weiss doesn’t merely ignore Ruby’s advice at first, she demeans her, defends herself and her family from perceived attacks by Ruby and Blake, and otherwise set herself apart.
I was referring to the classroom Grimm fight in v1e9-10, and Weiss' reaction to Ruby advising her on the fight with the Grimm. Defiance would be a poor characterization of that scene.
However, defiance would
also be a poor characterization of the scene from v1c2 that you are referring to. What satisfies Weiss in that scene is recognition of her family's status, which she
takes pride in; what frustrates her is Ruby's ignorance and Blake's questioning of the same, as well as Ruby failing to live up to the status of Beacon (another point of pride) in Weiss' eyes. Weiss doesn't defy any of those things, and she doesn't defy Ruby or Blake in any other way, either. Pride wins here, not because it is vague and unspecific, but because it actually matches the specific values and behaviors Weiss displays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
Juane asking Weiss to the dance was elaborate and corny and Weiss doesn’t merely refuse him, but slams the door in his face, twice.
And what's defiant about that? Some words for Weiss' behavior in those scenes would be
dismissive,
disdainful,
contemptuous,
haughty - words for behavior towards someone Weiss considers unworthy of romantic consideration, in a situation where she holds the power. Someone who Weiss dismisses specifically as a lower-status social climber seeking to benefit from her own well-established status. I can see the argument against considering this prideful, but there is no reasonable argument for considering it defiance. The power dynamic is completely backwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
Weiss even complained about Ozpin to another professor.
Because her pride was hurt by Ruby being picked as leader. And again, what's defiant about
that? Seeking validation from one authority, by way of confirming that the other authority
should have validated her, is not defiant at all. At most one could say she initially defied Port's assessment of her character by rejecting it...for about three seconds.
I must reiterate: defiance is not merely spoiling for disagreement or conflict, not in general and
particularly not for someone who is supposed to
personify defiance. It is willful disregard for some authority, burden, or prevailing state of affairs, and a challenge to that entity. Weiss has this sort of relationship with her father. She has that relationship (now) with the negligent ignorance of Atlas' upper crust, which is a good catch and the first example so far where Weiss' defiance truly outweighs her pride. In the barest sense, she occasionally outwardly defies the negative public perception of the Schnees - even as she privately agrees with it and desires to reform the family. The rest of the time? The rest of the world? Not so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
I think pride works better in your examples only in the fashion that it describes a broader range of human behavior and so you can pin it on Weiss more often or in more ways. Defiance tends to involve some element of pride, but not vice versa. Weiss is certainly prideful in almost reflectsive manner, and would do things that is consistent with pride, i.e. Weiss offer to pay for ramen (which she then complained about the outcome).
These are all scenes that were initially brought up specifically as examples of Weiss being defiant, so these examples
should work particularly well for defiance. They don't,
except when family is involved. If you want to choose a word more specific than pride, have at it, but defiance is not a more specific match for these scenes, it's a
less accurate one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
I think its Weiss’s very tendency to complain about everyone and everything that shows how defiance defines here. To see things and people as set up against her (like Juane’s advances, I mean seriously, she suggests Juane is interested in her money or family name), even when they are not. Her tendency to take an adversarial stance even against her friends, are all very real and a stronger determination of defiance than pride.
Complaining is orthogonal to both defiance and pride. Being adversarial is not sufficient to be defiant. The claims you are making are not even close to establishing defiance, so it's not even necessary for me to argue against them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
There are plenty of ways to express pride that doesn’t involve being adversarial, defensive or showing other elements of hostility. That isn’t Weiss’s way of being, though. Weiss has anger issues, and always seems taunt, ready to snap at the next person who says or does anything that upsets her. Various versions of the Devil in media are always dripping with pride (he is supposed to be its personification), but those versions are rarely angry (that would be beneath him). In these stories, the Devil opposes or defy people only at critical plot points. For Weiss its an always on possibility.
"Satan" literally means "enemy" or "adversary", and he is best known for being cast down from heaven after his pride led him to wage war in defiance of God. If you want an example of pride without adversarial character, that is a terrible, terrible choice. In any straight media interpretation, his every action is hostile to humanity and calculated to oppose the Almighty. And your barometer is how often he gets visibly angry? I can't take that seriously, sorry.
And sure, if you want to choose a word to reflect Weiss' adversarial character in these moments, go for it. I would start with 'indignant'. But defiance is not the word you're looking for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
I think defiance describes Weiss much better, not just because it works better for those critical scenes, but because Pride cannot explain her anger, hostility, and adversarial posture, and because defiance is narrower, and isn’t such a clique personality descriptor.
There's a critical misunderstanding here: your words indicate that you think I want a single word to describe Weiss. I don't. As I've said before, I think it's a good thing that Weiss can't be summed up in one word. I don't think Weiss begins and ends with her pride, and every time you attack that position you're talking to someone other than me. So I don't care about any of your criticisms on that score.
With that said, to dismiss Weiss' evident pride in her name, status, and abilities just because it's broad or cliche is absurd. Say what you like about the choice to make pride a major feature of Weiss' character that motivates many of her decisions, emotions and actions, but that's exactly what it is.
Meanwhile, defiance is a terrible explanation of the non-family scenes brought up as evidence that Weiss personifies defiance, and pride explains
those scenes better.