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OotS as opposite alignments
I was thinking of what the OoTs party would be like were they each on the opposite end of the alignment scale. (Good/Evil, not Lawful/Chaotic.)
Roy Greenhilt: Lawful Evil Wizard
Roy is a power-hungry wizard, and thanks to his excellent leadership and genius, he easily takes the power he wants. He has a host of minions, both humanoid and otherwise, who he has gained the loyalty of through various means, and he may be a warlord. He has a strict system of rules, and will not hesitate to punish most of his minions if they violate any of them. He has however, on occasion shown mercy to someone he liked or found useful, (just as Good Roy occasionally commits an evil act, i.e stranding Elan.) In general, though, he has very little mercy or compassion for the majority of people.
Elan: Chaotic Evil Fighter
Elan is a brute who will happily take from anyone to provide for himself. He enjoys inflicting pain on others, but mostly just wants to take from them by force. Due to his lack of intelligence and wisdom, he often picks a fight where he may not win, and may die early because of it. However, he has shown skill in talking himself out of dangerous situations.
Belkar Bitterleaf: Chaotic Good Ranger/Cleric
Belkar is a healer and crusader who seeks to be as much of a positive influence on the world as he can. He avoids violence when possible, preferring to heal and seek diplomatic solutions, but he will fight to protect the life of another. He will use violence only when he has exhausted every other possible option. In very rare cases, dealing with the most evil brutes, he may advocate killing them out of anger, even when there are other options available
Haley Starshine: Chaotic Neutral/Evil Rogue
While Haley protects and has compassion for her family and close friends, she cares little for anyone else. She will steal from both the rich and poor, but prefers not to kill, although she has murdered before and will not lose sleep if she does it again. She gives no heed to rules, and ultimately puts herself above everyone else. As a result, she has amassed quite a bit of wealth.
Vaarsuvius: Alignment: ???
This Vaaruvius, similar to the other Vaarsuvius, is a bit of a flip-flop when it comes to alignment. He will usually not commit very evil acts, but will rarely put himself in danger for others. Knowledge and power are his primary motivations, and they often come before morality. He has, on occasion, adopted a more ethical stance, but he usually reverts back to his previous behavior not long after.
Durkon:
I'm afraid I can't successfully make an evil Durkon, as Good Durkon's character is too consistent with his moral code for me to envision his behavior without it. Evil Durkon would likely be a completely unrecognizable character.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
One question: Why is Evil Roy suddenly a wizard?? :smallconfused:
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
I would think that evil Elan would be a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer who specializes in enchantment spells, no?
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
KillianHawkeye
One question: Why is Evil Roy suddenly a wizard?? :smallconfused:
Because I surmised that good Roy primarily became a fighter to honor his family tradition, and that he had a high enough INT to pull off being a wizard. I also figured a wizard fit the power hungry authoritarian better than a fighter.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
LE Roy would be a Tarquin minus the love for theatrics.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
Quote:
Durkon:
I'm afraid I can't successfully make an evil Durkon, as Good Durkon's character is too consistent with his moral code for me to envision his behavior without it. Evil Durkon would likely be a completely unrecognizable character.
Durkon is a loyal follow of Thor. Just make him a loyal follower of Hel or Loki. Done.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
How is this different than just an alternate take on the Linear Guild?
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
Loki_42
How is this different than just an alternate take on the Linear Guild?
The linear guild aren't really the evil opposites of the OoTs. Roy and Thog would be nothing alike even if they had the same alignment. Same with Haley-Sabine, Elan-Nale, and Varsuuvius-Zzdittri. And Durkon/Hilgya Belkar/YukYuk were the same alignments.
So in other words the linear guild is just a group of people who happen to be mostly different alignments than OoTs.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
How can Durkon be the same alignment as Hilgya? Durkon is an LG cleric of the NG (with chaotic tendancies) Thor. Hilgya is a CN cleric of Loki, who is NE/CE.
In fact, in Deities and Demigods, Thor is actually described as CG but has to be NG (Chaotic) in the world of Oots as clerics have to be within 1 step of their deities alignment and Durkon fits LG almost to a T, meaning that Oots Thor is NG, though still tending toward the Chaotic end of things (which Durkon even lampshades at least twice).
Hilgya, meanwhile, ran away from her family and her obligations and put her own desires first, which is classic CN. Durkon's reaction to finding out is entirely fitting with an LG alignment for him.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
WoLong
The linear guild aren't really the evil opposites of the OoTs. Roy and Thog would be nothing alike even if they had the same alignment. Same with Haley-Sabine, Elan-Nale, and Varsuuvius-Zzdittri. And Durkon/Hilgya Belkar/YukYuk were the same alignments.
So in other words the linear guild is just a group of people who happen to be mostly different alignments than OoTs.
Roy's most unique stat as a fighter is his INT. Thog inverses that, becoming his opposite.
Though not specifically stated, it is heavily implied that both Haley and Sabine adventure largely because they have a debt to pay off. Add to that that they are both involved with the bard-analogue of their group and stand on opposite ends of the Position vs. Damage rogue scale.... it makes them decent enough opposites.
Elan-Nale. Not only are they the evil-twin trope played so straight that it curves back again under its own mass, the effectiveness of Elan's dramatics versus the relative incompetency of Nale's practicality maxes them excellent opposites.
The other three members of the Order have had multiple opposite numbers, but:
Durkon: Each of his opposites has grossly crossed at least one tenet of a societal or religious creed. Now this may not directly seem to oppose Durkon, unless you stop and think that this is an indication of how much value he attaches to those things.
Belkar: Is probably one of the most straight examples, as where he fights for bloodshed his opposites were known to fight for honor and vengeance. LG to his CE. The inversal increases when you stop to realize that halflings are known to be nearly universally Good, while the opposite holds for Kobolds.
V: He's hard to mirror, but his waterfall of words versus Z's silent attitude is certainly a good start. I'm pretty sure there is also an opposition in their preferred and banned spell schools, but do not hold me to that one.
If anything, Xykon is V's straightest opposite number. They both enjoy magical power but where studious V gains it through effort, the sorcerer Xykon has it... because he has it. This reflects their general tone on the seriousness scale as well, and you want to anger neither.
Just to make a point: there are many ways to make an opposite, and mr. B. sure did do that.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
jedipilot24
How can Durkon be the same alignment as Hilgya? Durkon is an LG cleric of the NG (with chaotic tendancies) Thor. Hilgya is a CN cleric of Loki, who is NE/CE.
In fact, in Deities and Demigods, Thor is actually described as CG but has to be NG (Chaotic) in the world of Oots as clerics have to be within 1 step of their deities alignment and Durkon fits LG almost to a T, meaning that Oots Thor is NG, though still tending toward the Chaotic end of things (which Durkon even lampshades at least twice).
Hilgya, meanwhile, ran away from her family and her obligations and put her own desires first, which is classic CN. Durkon's reaction to finding out is entirely fitting with an LG alignment for him.
She seemed to have been being well oppressed in her previous home, so this isn't proof that she's not Good.
However I was only referring to their alignment on the good/evil scale. But as you pointed out, she is not necessarily Good. I agree that it's highly unlikely that a good character (chaotic or otherwise) would be a cleric of Loki. However she is still not an evil opposite as I believe we both agree she is not evil. But I am not attempting to make mirror versions of the OotS cast, just speculating as to what they would be like with opposite alignments.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
Evil elan would still be a bard, evil roy still a fighter. Belkar would have a hard time being a cleric with a wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings. I don't think any of their classes would change just because their alignment's did. Basically just switch elan and belkar's personalities and you're damn close with those 2.
Roy's relationship with belkar would be more master servant than it already is, and he would be trying to force belkar to stop trying to help people...
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
Corwin Icewolf
Evil elan would still be a bard, evil roy still a fighter. Belkar would have a hard time being a cleric with a wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings. I don't think any of their classes would change just because their alignment's did. Basically just switch elan and belkar's personalities and you're damn close with those 2.
Roy's relationship with belkar would be more master servant than it already is, and he would be trying to force belkar to stop trying to help people...
Why would evil Elan still be a bard, or evil Roy still be a fighter? I think their alignments would drastically affect what class they'd choose.
Also, I assumed Belkar's low wisdom is the cause of his evil disposition (or vice versa), and that scores like wisdom are not as set in stone in OotS, and can change as the character develops, without necessarily investing points in them upon leveling up.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
WoLong
Why would evil Elan still be a bard, or evil Roy still be a fighter? I think their alignments would drastically affect what class they'd choose.
Why would they change their professions? Also, evil bards are awesome:
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
The existence of the Linear Guild makes this thread kind of superfluous.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
WoLong
She seemed to have been being well oppressed in her previous home, so this isn't proof that she's not Good.
The part where she tries to poison him first kinda is, though.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
Wouldn't the opposite alignment for Roy be CE? He's canonically LG after all.
I see him giving into his rage and frustration's a lot more.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
Math_Mage
The part where she tries to poison him first kinda is, though.
I'd say it establishes her as either evil or neutral with serious evil tendencies, and far out of the territory where good is even on the table, m'self. Especially since she apparently could have run away at any time. (And if Rich had wanted to depict her husband abusing her, he could have.)
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
Dungeon Crawling Fools does say that the Linear Guild characters are
"Not just an evil version of each character, but the exact embodiment of everything their OOTS twin opposes. Not just opposites, but nemeses."
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
Why aren't any of these flipped on the chaotic/law axis?
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
Kish
I'd say it establishes her as either evil or neutral with serious evil tendencies, and far out of the territory where good is even on the table, m'self. Especially since she apparently could have run away at any time. (And if Rich had wanted to depict her husband abusing her, he could have.)
Well, exactly.
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Originally Posted by
Othniel Edden
Why aren't any of these flipped on the chaotic/law axis?
Because that's not what the OP's after. He wants evil versions, not total alignment flip, despite what the title says.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
Alignment flipped elan is Thog.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
Math_Mage
Because that's not what the OP's after. He wants evil versions, not total alignment flip, despite what the title says.
Then the thread title should be changed. It's misleading.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
WoLong
Durkon:
I'm afraid I can't successfully make an evil Durkon, as Good Durkon's character is too consistent with his moral code for me to envision his behavior without it. Evil Durkon would likely be a completely unrecognizable character.
I think an Evil Durkon is a fascinating idea. The same unflappable, conservative dwarf with an unyielding dedication to an Evil moral code. As a right hand man to Roy, maybe second in command in charge of religion in an evil empire, I think he'd be quite terrifying, really. And where Durkon is usual careful in how he uses his powers, even for good, I can imagine Evil Durkon being totally unhesistant in laying down the law by calling on whatever Evil god it is he worships and unleashing Unholy terror on those who break even the most minor of rules... I almost wish I had an Evil Durkon avatar right now...
EDIT: Picture this: A long and dark corridor adorned with statues of evil deities on either side, on an undecorated throne of blackened stone sits Durkon, at one end. A young lad or lassie bound in chains is dragged before him and thrown at his feet. He raises his hammer skywards- purple lightning flashes down and his eyes glow yellow as he says- "Och, the Gods be sayin' tha tha be no way for a yungun' to be dressin'! Put on some clothes or yer family'll burn tonight." Thunderclap!
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
WoLong
Why would evil Elan still be a bard, or evil Roy still be a fighter? I think their alignments would drastically affect what class they'd choose.
Also, I assumed Belkar's low wisdom is the cause of his evil disposition (or vice versa), and that scores like wisdom are not as set in stone in OotS, and can change as the character develops, without necessarily investing points in them upon leveling up.
Redcloak has high wisdom. Being evil doesn't necessarily make you a short sighted fool. Elan has low wisdom, being good doesn't make you any wiser. Hell, Elan is more good than anyone else in the party, except maybe Durkon.
You're likely right about them not having to invest points as they level up, but there's no reason an alignment change would raise belkar's wisdom for no reason.
Elan loves being a bard, that wouldn't change because he was evil, whether Roy's love of being a fighter would change is more debatable, but Roy is someone who might become a general of some sort, so I rather picture him as a tarquin minus the theatrics, as someone said before.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WoLong
She seemed to have been being well oppressed in her previous home, so this isn't proof that she's not Good.
However I was only referring to their alignment on the good/evil scale. But as you pointed out, she is not necessarily Good. I agree that it's highly unlikely that a good character (chaotic or otherwise) would be a cleric of Loki. However she is still not an evil opposite as I believe we both agree she is not evil. But I am not attempting to make mirror versions of the OotS cast, just speculating as to what they would be like with opposite alignments.
Every action she takes which would indicate good or evil is a strong indicator of evil. She does not take a single action inconsistent with CE, and the majority of her actions are inconsistent with anything but evil. The only thing that makes her seem not evil is that she is cute.
Hilgya has three possible alignments. Chaotic-Neutral, Neutral-Evil, Chaotic-Evil.
She was in a society that had arranged marriages, sure, but her husband was a dedicated, nice guy. Yeah, we don't know him very well. But everything we are told about him shows that he was a nice guy. She didn't attack him in a fit of passion. She repeatedly attempted to manipulate and take advantage of his trust in her to murder him because she wasn't happy with her situation. The murder seems spiteful and cruel, not desperate. Running away was an act of desperation. Which she did do eventually. She was successful in running away. There is no reason for us to think she couldn't have run away from the beginning. She chose, rather than just running away, to murder her husband first. She has no remorse about it. She is a true blue CE.
Not to mention the plan to trick someone pure of heart into touching the sigil and the needless murder of the gate guardians that Hilgya participates in. We see her as an accomplice to murder, smiling happily.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
Corwin Icewolf
Redcloak has high wisdom. Being evil doesn't necessarily make you a short sighted fool. Elan has low wisdom, being good doesn't make you any wiser. Hell, Elan is more good than anyone else in the party, except maybe Durkon.
You're likely right about them not having to invest points as they level up, but there's no reason an alignment change would raise belkar's wisdom for no reason.
Elan loves being a bard, that wouldn't change because he was evil, whether Roy's love of being a fighter would change is more debatable, but Roy is someone who might become a general of some sort, so I rather picture him as a tarquin minus the theatrics, as someone said before.
I did not say that I believed a high wisdom is a necessary prerequisite for a good character, or that a low wisdom is a necessary prerequisite for an Evil character. I just attributed Belkar's low wisdom to a lifetime of thoughtless violence. I surmised that a good Belkar would be thoughtful and reflective, and thus would develop a high wisdom rather than a low wisdom by adulthood.
I suspect, were tarquin good, he may have been a Bard. But being a fighter rather than a bard was helpful in his rise to power. Evil Elan may still possess a love of the dramatic, but as a bard he would not be able to inflict pain and take what he wants as well as a fighter.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
LuPuWei
I think an Evil Durkon is a fascinating idea. The same unflappable, conservative dwarf with an unyielding dedication to an Evil moral code. As a right hand man to Roy, maybe second in command in charge of religion in an evil empire, I think he'd be quite terrifying, really. And where Durkon is usual careful in how he uses his powers, even for good, I can imagine Evil Durkon being totally unhesistant in laying down the law by calling on whatever Evil god it is he worships and unleashing Unholy terror on those who break even the most minor of rules... I almost wish I had an Evil Durkon avatar right now...
EDIT: Picture this: A long and dark corridor adorned with statues of evil deities on either side, on an undecorated throne of blackened stone sits Durkon, at one end. A young lad or lassie bound in chains is dragged before him and thrown at his feet. He raises his hammer skywards- purple lightning flashes down and his eyes glow yellow as he says- "Och, the Gods be sayin' tha tha be no way for a yungun' to be dressin'! Put on some clothes or yer family'll burn tonight." Thunderclap!
His religion is based on his love of Thor. I can hardly imagine him having a similar devotion to a god without being good.
But then again, being evil wouldn't necessarily prevent him from feeling devoted to a god. Obviously it does not do that universally in either OotS or DnD.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
Ravens_cry
Then the thread title should be changed. It's misleading.
I said so in the first sentence.
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Re: OotS as opposite alignments
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Originally Posted by
WoLong
I
While Haley protects and has compassion for her family and close friends, she cares little for anyone else. She will steal from both the rich and poor, but prefers not to kill, although she has murdered before and will not lose sleep if she does it again. She gives no heed to rules, and ultimately puts herself above everyone else. As a result, she has amassed quite a bit of wealth.
How is this the opposite of Haley?