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Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
So why is it so difficult to pitch the idea for a good align drow? I liked Elistraee’s fluff in Forgotten Realm and I noticed that Dervish Dancer archetype with Dervish Dancer feat was perfect for the theme (minus the Scimitar only restriction for the feat, instead of Bastard Sword). The most often response is that Drow are suppose to be evil, despite Elistraee’s fluff saying a small portion of them are not. The second reason is that they never work out.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
Drizzt clones. Nuff' said.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
People see them as cliché. That's probably the main reason.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
I'd imagine a lot of it is from the endless waves of carbon copy CG Drizz't clones that new players will often make. When you've seen hundreds of identical dual-scimitar wielding Drow, you start thinking all of them are the same, even the rare good-aligned, but fully original drow.
Edit: Ninja'd
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
You might be better off trying to avoid the dual-wield aspect of a good drow. For reasons that have already been elaborated on.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
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Originally Posted by
Alleran
You might be better off trying to avoid the dual-wield aspect of a good drow. For reasons that have already been elaborated on.
I was, even the feat dancer dervish requires your off hand to be free to get dex to hit and damage for scimitars.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
Because people are unable to allow a character or concept to exist within a vacuum in a game.
Also: I've still yet to see one of these supposed "Drizzt Clones" in the wild, I'm pretty sure that's all in people's heads.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
It's not hard to pitch a good aligned drow, you just need to be creative with it.
Try something like a drow good aligned cleric of Estanna.
A drow woman who likes being in the kitchen? Didn't see that one coming..of course don't insult her cooking or you'll get a nice dagger in the face.
Given the right backstory and fluff, one can make almost any concept work.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
My old friend alway played Drows... He liked the race (Never really understood why) Was always Chaotic Good... not a Drizz't copy but certainly had his own flair... Everything he always did always keep us on edge and paranoid (Not because he was a Drow, because of the person RP'ing him)
He played a very good Drow... I miss that guy... :smallfrown: Personally, I feel that if/when I return to play with my old group regardless of all the knowledge that I've gathered on Optimization he would still be just as intimidating with just sheer RP prowess :smallamused:
Anywho! A Good aligned Drow is entirely possible without being a Drizz't copy just try and be different from each other Drow... If you want to be a Drow Wizard, be a Drow Wizard. If you want to devote your life to a sadistic witch that thinks she is so much better then everyone else (Even though shes totally not), then be a Drow Cleric and if you want to charge around swinging a battle axe big enough to have the party making compensation jokes, be a Drow Barbarian... Since deciding to read through the Eberron books I learned that you can't simply say a class can't be something just because it "feels" out of place... Otherwise you'd have a bunch of Elf Wizards, Human Fighters, and Orc Barbarians and how boring would that be? :smallannoyed:
tl;dr Don't sterotype and RP to the best of your abilities and your Drow [insert class here] will be fine :smallsmile:
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
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Originally Posted by
Alchemistmerlin
Because people are unable to allow a character or concept to exist within a vacuum in a game.
Also: I've still yet to see one of these supposed "Drizzt Clones" in the wild, I'm pretty sure that's all in people's heads.
Well, the first one I saw was my own, but at least mine wasn't actually a drow. Still a chaotic good elven ranger worshiping ehlonna while TWFing scimitars. I have seen others, though. Most people who get introduced to D&D through the series will at least think of making one.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
The biggest reason I've seen against good-aligned drow is Drizzt clones. The second is against good-aligned characters of an "evil" race. Cries of Mary Sue-dom end up falling somewhere between the two, typically.
I actually do like Eilistraee drow; the idea of benevolent and joyful drow make the entire race actually more interesting, and the cruel parts of the culture stand out more. After all, it's one thing to have an evil culture with evil gods because everyone is evil (with few exceptions). It's far different to have an evil culture with evil gods because the society just behaves that way, and some drow don't find it preferable.
I've had thoughts of a drow druid and clerics of Eilistraee, so I wouldn't say the concept is that abstract.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
As everyone has stated before Drizzt clones (and I have seen them, and when I gm for them, they routinely meet a grizzly fate {no i am not a perfectly neutral GM, and occasionally I do something petty}), but erikun hit the nail on the head with the Mary-Sue comment. I generally dislike anyone playing very evil races as good. They can be played well, but usually aren't. They could be neutral, and would be more realistic characters, but no they choose to be insufferably good, and devoid of real character issues to make them likable.
Also drow really suck, even with a whole book dedicated to them (DotU) they still fail to be worth 2LA(and a con penalty). You are better off playing an elf with a severe skin pigmentation problem than a drow (and most other elves suck too, so there you go).
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
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Originally Posted by
Darth Stabber
Also drow really suck, even with a whole book dedicated to them (DotU) they still fail to be worth 2LA(and a con penalty). You are better off playing an elf with a severe skin pigmentation problem than a drow (and most other elves suck too, so there you go).
Isn't that why they invented lesser drow?
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
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Originally Posted by
Alleran
Which also suck, though not as bad as their :smallconfused: greater :smallconfused:kin.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
The drizzt clones started during the 2e era. The +2 LA was made to stem the tide of drizzt clones that were being played back then. Judging by results mentioned in this thread, I'd say it worked.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
One of my favorite characters that I ever played was a second edition (later converted to 3.5) Drow Rogue/fighter and later Paladin named Dri'el do Mariador. Yes he was a dual-wielder, a Longsword and a Scimitar. The Longsword was an legacy weapon of sorts (Sword of Sharpness, named GriphonEdge) and the Scimitar (called FlameBreath) he had made for him.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
Because Drizzt.
Also, I don't understand why you'd even want to play a Good aligned Drow? Alignments shouldn't be a boundary to a good time, if you're group is mature enough to play Evil characters at all. Playing a Drow who must stomach her revulsion at being forced to work with non-drows so that they can succeed on their quest, and slowly warming up to her companions and becoming friends, gaining a measure of understanding and still being unrepentantly evil would be great. Tension keeps storytelling interesting, and there's nothing like conflicting idealogies and a willingness to eat babies to bring some tension to the table :smallwink:
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Originally Posted by
Calanon
My old friend alway played Drows... He liked the race (Never really understood why)
Probably because Drow are amazing :smallamused:
If it weren't for the +2LA, I'd play Drow all the time. And if Lesser Drow weren't so cringeworthy, I might even play them.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
Because drow are one of the few races where I just cannot force myself to ignore the WotC fluff—and I hate the WotC fluff on drow. It's so dumb. Part of it, admittedly, may be due to the fact that my friends and I have this whole thing with drow . . . we have a specific voice we use, and this whole big stereotype that goes along with it . . . but goddammit, it's all backed up by the execrable WotC fluff, which we have to mock to survive. So yeah, I don't care if you're a goody two-shoes out to slay all the Drizzt clones in the world or a cackling spider-humping Lolthian, a drow's a drow, and I can't stand 'em.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
Maybe they're a foundling. Because of a birth defect, they were exposed, but were rescued by a kind-hearted </insert race here>.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
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Originally Posted by
Zaq
Because drow are one of the few races where I just cannot force myself to ignore the WotC fluff—and I hate the WotC fluff on drow. It's so dumb. Part of it, admittedly, may be due to the fact that my friends and I have this whole thing with drow . . . we have a specific voice we use, and this whole big stereotype that goes along with it . . . but goddammit, it's all backed up by the execrable WotC fluff, which we have to mock to survive. So yeah, I don't care if you're a goody two-shoes out to slay all the Drizzt clones in the world or a cackling spider-humping Lolthian, a drow's a drow, and I can't stand 'em.
But that's the best part :smalltongue:
Okay, maybe not quite as ridiculous as that, but I actually really like the Drow Fluff, so each to their own. And if the default fluff is what your beef with them is, Eberron Drow break the mold a fair bit, fighting Giants, being pragmatic and throwing Boomerangs at people, so that's cool too.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
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Originally Posted by
Golden Ladybug
Probably because Drow are amazing :smallamused:
If it weren't for the +2LA, I'd play Drow all the time. And if Lesser Drow weren't so cringeworthy, I might even play them.
No, in PVP I would have whipped him senseless regardless (Human Wizard Vs Drow Sorcerer/Spellthief type thingy, nuff said)
It was just how he played the character that made him so interesting... Whenever I play I'm always so distant unless I'm being forced into the center stage :smallannoyed:
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
Well, that has nothing to do with the Race, but more to do with the Players. And, depending on how he built his Drow Sorc/Spellthief, he might have been a bit more of a challenge than you think. Drow have some nice racial SR that they can bring to the table.
And anyway, PVP isn't the ultimate indicator of the worth of a Race or Class :smallwink:
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
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Originally Posted by
Zaq
. . . we have a specific voice we use...
I don't have a specific voice I use, I just give them italian accents (except for one with an intentionally bad/fake german accent, it was funny at the time). And high elves get french, and wood elves get spanish. It happened because I was trying to correlate all of the languages to real world languages and therefore have a consistant linguistic structure. Since draconic is a common language of magical scholarship, it became latin (no I don't have an accent for that, I don't know what ancient romans sounded like), from their elven languages were based on draconic (read it somewhere, don't remember where, but it sounded reasonable), and thus elves needed accents from romance languages. Which elves got which accent was kind of arbitrary, but french high elves sounded right. Plus with italian dark elves I get to use all the mafioso godfather stuff when talking with them which added a nice touch, and thus the only other romance accent I could fake recognizably (note I didn't say well) was spanish and the wood elves got it (since they were the only other elves I was allowing).
After that common naturally became english (since most speaking in the game is common and my players and I are american). The ubiquitous scottish accent was picked for dwarves (not because it made sense, just a conceit to genre convention). I haven't had to go much further other than picking irish accents for faeries.
Wow a random little aside can get long quickly.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
Personally? It's because everyone who wanted to play a Drow in the games I played would *Always* play one that didn't fit the fluff. True, there are good aligned Drow. But they're a minority. But if everyone who wants to play them plays good-aligned ones, it's like D&D vampires being consistently portrayed as sparkling Twilight vampires.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
I think it might be fun to play a Lawful Evil militaristic drow, who finds the debauchery and decadence repulsive.
They're still evil, just in a more calm, cold way.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
I think it is much more interesting to pitch a good Derro, or an evil halfling.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
One of my friends has been playing a good-aligned Drow... modelled after Fluttershy. The result is almost disturbingly adorable, the sort of military-grade cuteness that reduces hardened soldiers to puppylike complacency. It is awesome.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
Because you haven't been playing with me.
Hey, I once allowed a half-dragon hydra as a PC - in the same party as a half-nymph drow paladin of freedom, no less. I'd say the closest to a Drizz't clone there was the human fighter/rogue who dual-wielded bastard swords and murderized via stealth. So long as there's more to the character than "Exactly like Drizz't", I'll let you try it out. Personally, I don't think it'd kill anybody if more DMs were like that. What's the worst that'll happen? It turns out really crappy and we have to suffer through it for a little while before I twist your arm and you make a new character?
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
I have thought it would be interesting to see a sinister elf community (Moon elves?) raid a drow encampment and steal their babies. Later on these babies would be trained as scouts and assassins by the elves, and sent out to do SEAL-missions against the drow. I love the delicate nastyness of opposite Szarkai :smallamused:
I also think this could make for very interesting characters with the weirdest moral conflicts. Trained in the more sinister parts of a peace-loving society, and sent to kill people who look like themselves, but who they share no cultural traits with.
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Re: Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?
It can be hard to pitch good-aligned drow both because some DMs are married to established fluff (there is a thread that the quote in my siggy links to with nearly fifty pages of arguing about that) and because a lot of folks want to go beyond 'unusual and exceptional' (a normal Player Character) and into 'I am the most special ever'. That being said, I do think there's a lot of potential for a good-aligned drow character, especially when his or her ideals find themselves tested by constant exposure to the worst sides of the sapient races - bigotry, prejudice, fear, mob violence and sometimes even torture.
I think the last good-aligned drow I played was the victim of a magical accident when she was an infant; she was teleported out of the Underdark and into a moon elf village (Forgotten Realms game). They raised her as one of their own after much debate, but she faced a lot of discrimination and prejudice even then. When she finally learned the truth of her heritage, she set out to find an Underdark entrance with little more than basic traveling gear and a tattoo on the back of her wrist that marked her as an elf-friend, innocently convinced that her real parents must be worried sick about her.
Fun campaign, all in all.