Persevering Spell (3.5 metamagic feat, PEACH)

This is a fix for the often-bizarre Persistent Spell.

Persistent Spell [Metamagic]
You are able to make your spells last much longer than normal.

Prerequisite
Extend Spell.

Benefit
A persistent spell lasts approximately ten times as long as normal. The duration is increased by one step according to the following progression: rounds → minutes → 10 minutes → hours → days → 10 days.

Spells with a duration of instantaneous or permanent cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged, or those with no specific duration (such as animal trance, but not detect evil). You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the things detected, or to maintain them to their maximum modified duration, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Special
An extended persistent spell lasts approximately twenty times as long as usual; follow the above rules for multiplying duration, and then double the result.

Persistent Power [Metapsionic]
You are able to make your powers last much longer than normal.

Prerequisite
Extend Power.

Benefit
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. A persistent power lasts approximately ten times as long as normal. The duration is increased by one step according to the following progression: rounds → minutes → 10 minutes → hours → days → 10 days.

Powers with a duration of instantaneous or permanent cannot be affected by this feat, nor can powers whose effects are discharged, or those with no specific maximum duration. You need not concentrate on powers such as detect psionics to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the things detected, or to maintain them to their maximum modified duration, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a power is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 6. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level.

Special
An extended persistent power lasts approximately twenty times as long as usual; follow the above rules for multiplying duration, and then double the result.

This is somewhat more efficient than being theoretically able to stack Extend three times for the same spell level adjustment. It avoids the absurdity of rounds/level spells lasting for an entire day (blink, anyone?) without making its use pointless or inefficient on long-lasting spells.

Added a section to clarify how Extend works with it.

Hmm... I guess this is a feat, so it should be good. But I fear this is persist light.

Like a wizard can cast a preserving mage armor once per day.

Also with metamagic reduction you can easily get this down to 1-0 levels boost.

I don't know, feels to strong. Though just having things spam targeted dispel magics, it still feels to good.

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Originally Posted by bobthe6th

Hmm... I guess this is a feat, so it should be good. But I fear this is persist light.

Like a wizard can cast a preserving mage armor once per day.

Also with metamagic reduction you can easily get this down to 1-0 levels boost.

I don't know, feels to strong. Though just having things spam targeted dispel magics, it still feels to good.

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Yeah, but it takes up a spell slot 3 levels higher, and grants no advantage other than duration. If that wizard wants to give up a 4th level spell slot for +4 AC, I'd say let him. I mean, one spell level higher and they could cast permanency (which is a bit longer in duration than this).

In my opinion, this feat could do with a bit more uniformity. It's a little difficult to understand with all the different ways it interacts with different spells. Other than that, I like it.

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Originally Posted by bobthe6th

Hmm... I guess this is a feat, so it should be good. But I fear this is persist light.

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That's the point, yes; it's supposed to be a replacement for Persistent Spell.

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Like a wizard can cast a preserving mage armor once per day.

Also with metamagic reduction you can easily get this down to 1-0 levels boost.

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Arguably, that's more the fault of metamagic reduction. Not sure I want to compensate for that, since (if anything) that tends to make metamagic that's way too weak normally and still a bit too strong when combined with reduction.

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I don't know, feels to strong. Though just having things spam targeted dispel magics, it still feels to good.

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Anything more specific?

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Originally Posted by Plato Play-Doh

In my opinion, this feat could do with a bit more uniformity. It's a little difficult to understand with all the different ways it interacts with different spells.

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Well, like what? I tried to make the duration fairly consistent, but still manageable.

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Originally Posted by tuggyne

Well, like what? I tried to make the duration fairly consistent, but still manageable.

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Two simpler-seeming possibilities: you could have all durations increase x10, or you could have all durations increase by a time category (rounds -> minutes, minutes -> hours, hours -> days). The overall effect may be less balanced, but it's easier for a player to remember and apply.

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Originally Posted by Frathe

Two simpler-seeming possibilities: you could have all durations increase x10

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I didn't want to have to deal with "100 minutes/level".

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or you could have all durations increase by a time category (rounds -> minutes, minutes -> hours, hours -> days). The overall effect may be less balanced, but it's easier for a player to remember and apply.

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I suppose that might work, but it would need bumping up to a +4 at least.

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Originally Posted by tuggyne

I didn't want to have to deal with "100 minutes/level".

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Understandable.

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Originally Posted by tuggyne

I suppose that might work, but it would need bumping up to a +4 at least.

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It's definitely simpler, though. And +3 to +4 isn't a huge change.

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Originally Posted by tuggyne

That's the point, yes; it's supposed to be a replacement for Persistent Spell.

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Ah! that I can get behind. Though I think some of the same stuff for persist applies here. Stuff that used to be hourly becomes weekly at any level you could cast this. Mage armor and things like that...

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Originally Posted by Frathe

It's definitely simpler, though. And +3 to +4 isn't a huge change.

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I guess I'll keep considering it, but I'm not yet convinced of the necessity.

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Originally Posted by bobthe6th

Ah! that I can get behind. Though I think some of the same stuff for persist applies here. Stuff that used to be hourly becomes weekly at any level you could cast this. Mage armor and things like that...

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A druid at level 12 can get +6 armor bonus for 12 days at a time using ironwood without a feat. I don't think it's too far out of line.

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or you could have all durations increase by a time category (rounds -> minutes, minutes -> hours, hours -> days). The overall effect may be less balanced, but it's easier for a player to remember and apply.

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I suppose that might work, but it would need bumping up to a +4 at least.

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If you add 10min/lvl as a timestep, you won't change the feat at all as far as I can see, but the effect is much more easy to read.

"The spells duration increases by one step, according to the following scheme:
rounds -> minutes -> 10 minutes -> hours -> days (maximum of 1 week)"

You can then leave it at +3. The red part is just something I'd add for simplicity.

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Originally Posted by MrLemon

If you add 10min/lvl as a timestep, you won't change the feat at all as far as I can see, but the effect is much more easy to read.

"The spells duration increases by one step, according to the following scheme:
rounds -> minutes -> 10 minutes -> hours -> days (maximum of 1 week)"

You can then leave it at +3. The red part is just something I'd add for simplicity.

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OK, yeah, that's a good idea. Done. (However, I'm not really sure why it's necessary to prevent e.g. Persevering dominate person from lasting super-long; if they want to burn an 8th-level spell slot on a 150-day single-target domination, why not?)

You might want to add "is increased by one step" just so no one gets confused and think they're supposed to follow all the arrows all the way down. :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Frathe

You might want to add "is increased by one step" just so no one gets confused and think they're supposed to follow all the arrows all the way down. :smalltongue:

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Ah, right. I didn't even think of that. :smalleek:

Okay, the one thing that isn't entirely clear to me is the interaction with spells with a duration of Concentration. I'm guessing detect evil would last for 1 hour per level regardless of Concentration, but require Concentration to know details. What about other spells that do something other than detection?

Otherwise I really like it. It's actually useful without mitigation and not broken with it.

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Originally Posted by tuggyne

OK, yeah, that's a good idea. Done. (However, I'm not really sure why it's necessary to prevent e.g. Persevering dominate person from lasting super-long; if they want to burn an 8th-level spell slot on a 150-day single-target domination, why not?)

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Because you refresh your spell slots every day after an 8 hour rest. Which means that you could dominate 150 people indefinitely for only 1 spell slot a day.

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Originally Posted by Jeff the Green

Okay, the one thing that isn't entirely clear to me is the interaction with spells with a duration of Concentration. I'm guessing detect evil would last for 1 hour per level regardless of Concentration, but require Concentration to know details. What about other spells that do something other than detection?

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Specifically?

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Otherwise I really like it. It's actually useful without mitigation and not broken with it.

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Awesome! That's my design goal right there. :smallcool:

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Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla

Because you refresh your spell slots every day after an 8 hour rest. Which means that you could dominate 150 people indefinitely for only 1 spell slot a day.

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Sure. However, this is already a thing, and I'd already considered it; you can dominate (at the same level, and with a lower-level slot) 15 people indefinitely without a feat for one spell/day. (Assuming, of course, that they always fail the save.) Alternatively, at 9th level, you can keep 9 people dominated indefinitely with no feat or slot adjustment.

So the question is, is three spell levels and a feat a fair cost for multiplying maximum minions by 10?

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Originally Posted by tuggyne

Specifically?

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Well, when I wrote that I thought there were more spells with Duration: Concentration (up to X). But I can't find any that aren't detection.

Instead, I'd suggest being more explicit about what happens when you cast a Persevering detect magic. What I'm thinking happens is that the spell lasts 10 minutes/level and you don't have to Concentrate to maintain it, but you do have to Concentrate to get any knowledge beyond the presence or absence of auras. Right?

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Originally Posted by Jeff the Green

Instead, I'd suggest being more explicit about what happens when you cast a Persevering detect magic. What I'm thinking happens is that the spell lasts 10 minutes/level and you don't have to Concentrate to maintain it, but you do have to Concentrate to get any knowledge beyond the presence or absence of auras. Right?

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Isn't that exactly what it says? :smallconfused:

I borrowed the wording from Persistent Spell there, to be honest, but it really seems perfectly clear to me; I'm not sure how to expound on it. Well, OK, I guess there is one thing I could change: make it obvious that concentration isn't required to keep it running, either.

New wording has a potential problem, though: are there any spells that are just duration: concentration, with no maximum?

Plenty, actually. For example, animal trance.

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Originally Posted by Jeff the Green

Plenty, actually. For example, animal trance.

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Huh, sure enough. Messy. Persistent Spell doesn't seem to have paid any attention to that problem either, which saddens me. Ah well.

OK, I think I'm going to bar anything with no listed duration from being Persevered; there's nothing to multiply, and I really don't want to make some sort of massively flawed general rule for guessing at intended durations. However, spells with variable durations (time stop, etc) can just be multiplied no problem.

As others said, provided you do not employ metamagic cost reductions, this is a fairly good but not broken feat.

For the 150 dominated people comment, this is not nearly as good as it seems. Having 150 dominated minions at once is funny. Having a single angel merely appear in their midst and have its aura block all magical control and influence with no save/dispel check required or a wizard use limited wish to single-action Hallow for the same effect is considerably less funny.

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Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler

As others said, provided you do not employ metamagic cost reductions, this is a fairly good but not broken feat.

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Thanks!

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For the 150 dominated people comment, this is not nearly as good as it seems. Having 150 dominated minions at once is funny. Having a single angel merely appear in their midst and have its aura block all magical control and influence with no save/dispel check required or a wizard use limited wish to single-action Hallow for the same effect is considerably less funny.

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Heh, yes. Also, the profusion of DC 15 Sense Motive checks suggests it won't be difficult to figure out what's up.

Renamed this, because I really don't know why I gave it a different name.

Aaaand added a psionic conversion just for grins.

From another thread:

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Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu

Nooo. Not 1 day/level! That makes it possible to get all your buffs up and have a full contingent of utility/combat spells loaded each day you plan to be doing stuff. The 48 hour thing is already problematic in my mind; eggy even mentioned how strong that can be. Day/level is madness, especially for some things that might be stackable (like Extended Persisted Elemental Swarm, if we accept that that were possible). You get your elementals out for 2hrs/level, a minimum of 34 hours, meaning you can get one whole day's worth of 9ths summoned and still have the next days 9ths for other stuff. This is a terrible spell as an example, but take it for granted that something much, much more exploitable is out there.

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Elemental swarm is a ninth-level spell. Shoving Extend and Persist on it makes it a nice tidy 13th-level spell, which cannot be cast pre-epic; if you expend two of your daily uses of a greater metamagic rod (and somehow manage to hold two rods at once), I'd certainly hope you could get a decent set of semi-lasting minions. After all, shambler, planar binding, and various other spells can already do that with no feat or item investment needed for days, weeks, or even a year at a time.

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There is a spell from Dragon Magazine, elemental guardian, that summons a lesser elemental weird (also from Dragon Magazine) for 1 day/level, and binds it to an area. 4th druid/5th cleric/5th sorcere and wizard spell level. This gets stupid, as you can, given a fairly short period, bind dozens of these creatures to a fixed area. Of limited utility for offense, but it offers a huge defensive advantage whenever the characters know of a threat in advance, at minimal downtime cost.

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To be honest, I'm not sure there's much difference between "use feat and precast 7th-level slots for three weeks in advance to get a few dozen lesser weirds" and "burn a bit of XP and gold to scribe scrolls of liveoak and precast 6th-level slots for three days in advance to get a few dozen treants". It's, I dunno, pretty comparable? It's dependent on having a lot of warning to make it any different, but if you're doing it to defend against some threat at some time in the distant future, you'd need permanent minions, which this doesn't give. So there's a comparatively narrow band of utility between "invasion in eight days!" (where it's no better) and "invasion in eight months!" (where it's maxed out). And as long as it doesn't enable an unbounded set of minions, or make it vastly easier to get a lot of powerful lasting minions, it seems like it's decent for a feat.

I think +3 spell level is too expensive honestly. I'd think this would make more sense as +1 or +2. Granted, +1 pretty much replaces Extend Spell (though I suppose one could house rule Extend Spell to +0, since I really doubt that would unbalance anything given you have to spend a feat on it).

Compare Ethereal Jaunt and Etherealness for instance. The second is two levels higher, ups the duration one step, AND affects multiple targets (one per level). Fly (3rd, min/level) vs. Overland Flight (5th, hour/level) seems pretty similar here. OF is a bit less fast, but it does let you hustle without taking non-lethal and it is two steps higher in duration.

Ah, yes, the grand tradition of facing balance concerns that are mutually opposed. Since some consider this too expensive, and some too powerful for its cost, I expect it's just about right. :smallwink:

More specifically, overland flight is personal instead of touch, so that's worth a spell level or two right there.

Greater invisibility actually goes down a step after going up two spell levels, which would indicate that not breaking invisibility after an attack is worth at least four or five spell levels. Superior invisibility seems to follow that pretty well: it's a ninth that also grants immunity to various other detection methods as well as increased duration once more.

Charm monster is days/level instead of hours/level and also changes type, which is certainly odd. Greater magic weapon/fang both increase duration as well as scaling the bonus for +2 spell levels. Dimensional lock increases duration by not one, not two, but three steps as well as affecting an area. These are all, I think, examples where applying the metamagic to the base spell would be much less efficient than normal. Psionic charm/dominate have a similar measure built into their augmentation. Compression and expansion also; again, in these cases, requiring a PsyWar to be level 7 to get from 7 rounds to 7 minutes seems excessive for a buff that's almost only useful in short bursts. (From 9 minutes to 90 minutes, on the other hand, is a more significant jump, since it allows potentially several combats.)