The Warder [D&D3.5 Prestige Class]

This class is the anti-mage. He represents a character who has developed his martial focus towards combating magical effects. Primarily this is used to defend himself, but a high level Warder may extend his protection to his allies.

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I did post a rough draft of this a while back in a brainstorming thread. Since then I have cleaned it up some, primarily clarifying a couple of abilities, and removing the burn mechanic that everyone seemed to hate. Now I'm kind of worried about the class being too good against supernatural enemies, but maybe mages do just need a hardcounter. The countermagic ability now also allows for a spell turning effect, letting you get that whole Zelda magic tennis thing going on.

Also, Seal Supernatural ability lost some restrictions since I realized that was actually weaker than the dispelling buffs and countermagic, but seal supernatural ability and counter magic got swapped in progression, so you're not waiting so long for a key ability of the class. I'm still tempted to move Suppressing Aura up further, rather than having it as a capstone, but I'm not sure on that :/

The Warder

Becoming a Warder
Entry Requirements
Feats: Shield Ward, Combat Reflexes
BAB: +4
Skills: Spellcraft 3 ranks
Martial Maneuvers: Must know at least two martial maneuvers, and at least one martial stance.
Special: May not have access to spellcasting or psionic powers. If a member of a class that grants spellcasting, but not at first level (Such as a Ranger or Paladin), you may take this class as long as you have not reached a level where you are capable of casting spells.

Level	BAB	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Man. Known	Man. Readied	Stances Known
1st	+1	+2	+2	+2	Magic Absorption, Revert Reality	0	0	0
2nd	+2	+3	+3	+3	---	1	1	0
3rd	+3	+3	+3	+3	Spell Resistance	0	0	0
4th	+4	+4	+4	+4	---	1	0	0
5th	+5	+4	+4	+4	Counter Magic	0	1	1
6th	+6	+5	+5	+5	---	1	0	0
7th	+7	+5	+5	+5	Improved Shield Ward	0	1	0
8th	+8	+6	+6	+6	---	1	0	0
9th	+9	+6	+6	+6	Seal Ability	0	0	0
10th	+10	+7	+7	+7	Suppressing Aura	1	1	0

Hit Die: d12
Class Skills (4+int modifier per level)
Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search(Int), Sense Motive(Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex).

Maneuvers: At every even numbered level, you gain one maneuver known from the Stone Dragon, Diamond Mind, or Iron Heart disciplines. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisites to learn it. You add your full Warder level to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and highest level maneuvers known.

At 2nd, 5th, 7th, and 10th levels, you gain one extra maneuver readied.

Stances Known: At 5th level you learn one new stance from the Stone Dragon, Diamond Mind, or Iron Heart Disciplines.


Magic Absorption(Ex): When a spell targets the Warder who is holding his shield, if he makes a successful saving throw against the spell, he is able to recover one maneuver that he has expended.

Revert Reality(Ex): As an attack action, the Warder can expend any currently readied maneuver in order to dispel a magical effect within his reach, as though with a Greater Dispel Magic spell, treating your initiator level as caster level for purposes of the dispel check. Unlike the Dispel Magic spell, how, this effect may target a Wall of Force, and other similar spells that cannot be affected by Dispel Magic.

Spell Resistance(Ex): The Warder is particularly resilient against spells. Starting at 3rd level, while holding a shield, he gains spell resistance equal to 10 plus his initiator level. At 6th level, he may add his Shield Bonus to his Spell Resistance. Any spell negated via this spell resistance allows the Warder to recover one maneuver, as though he had made a successful saving throw against it.

Counter Magic(Ex) Starting from 5th level, the Warder is able to expend a readied maneuver as an opportunity action to counterspell any spell or spell-like ability that targets him or traces its line of effect through its square. To successfully counter the spell, the Warder must make a attack roll, with a DC equal to the Spell's Saving Throw DC or the spellcaster's attack roll in the case of Ray spells or other touch attacks. The maneuver expended must be equal or higher level than that of the effect being countered. A spell successfully countered in this way allows the Warder to regain the use of one expended maneuver. If the Warder's attack roll beats the enemy's save DC by 10 or more, he reflects the spell directly back at the opponent as though it were affected by spell turning.

Improved Shield Ward(Ex): At 7th level, the Warder gains the ability to apply his Shield bonus to all saving throws against Spells, Spell-Like abilities, and Supernatural Abilities.

Seal Ability(Ex): At 9th level, as a swift action the Warder may expend a currently readied maneuver in order to seal a Supernatural ability of his choice that a creature within his reach possesses. A sealed ability is rendered inert, either no longer functioning in the case of a passive ability, or it cannot be activated in the case of a use activated supernatural ability.

The Warder must know that the creature has the ability in order to seal it. He may know of this ability either by making a successful knowledge check relevant to the creature, or by having seen the ability be used. If the creature fails a will saving throw DC10+class level+Constitution Modifier, the ability chosen is sealed, and remains sealed for 1 minute (10 rounds) or until the Warder decides to unseal the ability. The Warder may opt to unseal an ability as a free action.

Suppressing Aura(Ex): While you are in a stance from any discipline you know, you can forgo its normal benefit as a swift action to gain the benefit of Suppressing Aura. This ability lasts as long as you would maintain the stance. You can also choose to stop using the reality aura and resume gaining the normal benefit of the stance as a swift action.

While you use Suppressing Aura, many of your abilities become more widespread. The suppressing aura stretches out 50ft. Your Improved Shield Ward and Spell Resistance may be applied to all allies within the area. Any ally under the effects of the aura who resists a spell via your spell resistance or makes a successful save triggers your Magic Absorption. Additionally you may use Counter Magic against any spell passing through this area. Finally, all squares within that 50 ft radius are considered within your reach for the purposes of Revert Reality and Seal Ability.









As always, please PEACH (mmmm peaches... now I'm hungry), and also give alternate ability or even class names if you think of them. I'm really not sure I'm happy with the name Warder, but couldn't think of anything else.

Haven't read the abilities yet. Full BAB, d12 hit die, all good saves, and Initiating progression? That's quite the powerful base.

Then again, that's compared to other non-casters. When you're fighting Wizards you need every advantage you can get.

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Originally Posted by Welknair

Haven't read the abilities yet. Full BAB, d12 hit die, all good saves, and Initiating progression? That's quite the powerful base.

Then again, that's compared to other non-casters. When you're fighting Wizards you need every advantage you can get.

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Yeah, the full saves were pretty much required for the idea of "I'm a badass against casters", and the abilities required initiating progression to fuel them (without it you either need casting, or some funky other resource substitute, and you don't want to make a whole new resource just for one prestige class).

I wouldn't be opposed to dropping the HD or BAB if it was determined they were unbalancing the class, or making it too good, but in general I feel those core chasis things are typically overvalued, and high HD and high BAB both fit the class.

Just read through the abilities. They seem decent, though Seal Ability could use some further definition.

And you're right. Often a lot of emphasis is put on the chassi even when in retrospect they don't matter that much.

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Originally Posted by Welknair

Just read through the abilities. They seem decent, though Seal Ability could use some further definition.

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I did just realize there is no duration on it anymore. I originally had it as something that requires a swift action each round to maintain, so the warder could only have 1 or two abilities sealed, but a few people commented that was too restrictive, and after thinking about it I agreed, though the current version may be not restrictive enough.

I did just update it to have a 1 minute duration after being sealed, and defined how you would know about an ability (either requiring a knowledge check or seeing the ability used). Is that the sort of definition you meant, or was there something else?

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Originally Posted by Seerow

I did just realize there is no duration on it anymore. I originally had it as something that requires a swift action each round to maintain, so the warder could only have 1 or two abilities sealed, but a few people commented that was too restrictive, and after thinking about it I agreed, though the current version may be not restrictive enough.

I did just update it to have a 1 minute duration after being sealed, and defined how you would know about an ability (either requiring a knowledge check or seeing the ability used). Is that the sort of definition you meant, or was there something else?

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Nope, that's the type of definition I was looking for.

However, that seems quite powerful. Especially as there is absolutely no way to resist it. No opposed check or will save or anything.

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"I seal the Wyrm's breath weapon"

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Originally Posted by Welknair

Nope, that's the type of definition I was looking for.

However, that seems quite powerful. Especially as there is absolutely no way to resist it. No opposed check or will save or anything.

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"I seal the Wyrm's breath weapon"

...

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That is a fair point (and the sort of thing I was worried about when I had the original restriction of having to maintain it). Would you suggest reintroducing that, or just giving it a saving throw to resist it? What sort of saving throw would that fall under? Will?


edit: Update, went ahead and made it a will save. It made more sense than anything else I could come up with at the moment. If you, or anyone else, has an idea for a better check to negate it, or other balancing mechanic, let me know.

How exactly does Revert Reality dispel effects? The actual process of dispelling an active spell effect in normally a function of the Dispel Magic spell (or similar effects) so the lack of references to same leaves the process undefined. Assuming the sensical approach, you should either spell it out (dispel check against DC 11 + CL, dispelling ends the effect as though the duration ran out) or just refer to how Dispel Magic does it. Note that there is nothing stopping Dispel Magic from dispelling Force effects (most of them are dispellable), but rather the description of certain specific effects (like Wall of Force) that are unaffected by Dispel Magic. Also, you also switch between "the Warder" (3rd person) and "you" (2nd person) in the middle of the description.

Counter Magic should say "maneuver expended" instead of "maneuver burned" to be consistent with the standard terminology and with earlier references within the same ability.

What does "sealing" an ability actually do? Seal Ability mentions sealing an ability several times, but never actually defines the term. Additionally, the action required to unseal an ability is not defined.

For Anti-Magic Aura, does it have any relationship with the effects of an Anti-Magic Field spell? That is, does it stop magic entirely (as the name would imply) or is the extension of your abilities all it does? If it doesn't negate magic like an AMF, I'd suggest renaming it something like Suppressing Aura that doesn't carry the same absolute, null-magic connotations.

Hmm, I can totally see a Witch Slayer/Warder.

See what you mean about the name...same trouble I've been having for ages.
Some of this looks a little familiar :smallwink: The class meshes nicely though, shame about the maneuvers or I'd possibly use this. That IS the reason I'm trying to make something a little like this myself though, so I can have a shield class in 3.5 basic!
I particularly like the interplay between Magic Absorption and Revert Reality, gives you a lot more bang for your buck and rewards careful planning and execution, theoretically if you had enough magic flying about you could dispel all day and all night, nice touch.

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How exactly does Revert Reality dispel effects? The actual process of dispelling an active spell effect in normally a function of the Dispel Magic spell (or similar effects) so the lack of references to same leaves the process undefined. Assuming the sensical approach, you should either spell it out (dispel check against DC 11 + CL, dispelling ends the effect as though the duration ran out) or just refer to how Dispel Magic does it. Note that there is nothing stopping Dispel Magic from dispelling Force effects (most of them are dispellable), but rather the description of certain specific effects (like Wall of Force) that are unaffected by Dispel Magic. Also, you also switch between "the Warder" (3rd person) and "you" (2nd person) in the middle of the description.

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It was intended to be as though via a dispell magic, apparently that was left a little unclear. Will update.

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Counter Magic should say "maneuver expended" instead of "maneuver burned" to be consistent with the standard terminology and with earlier references within the same ability.

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*sigh* I thought I caught all those. The last draft had a special mechanic referred to as burning maneuvers, burned maneuvers required absorb magic to recover them. Fixing.

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What does "sealing" an ability actually do? Seal Ability mentions sealing an ability several times, but never actually defines the term. Additionally, the action required to unseal an ability is not defined.

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And another good catch. Updating to reflect a sealed ability is rendered unusable, and unsealing an ability is a free action.

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For Anti-Magic Aura, does it have any relationship with the effects of an Anti-Magic Field spell? That is, does it stop magic entirely (as the name would imply) or is the extension of your abilities all it does? If it doesn't negate magic like an AMF, I'd suggest renaming it something like Suppressing Aura that doesn't carry the same absolute, null-magic connotations.

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This is why I ask for help with names :)

It is not intended to be an AMF at all, and as you note just extend the range of most of the class features.

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Originally Posted by Veklim

Some of this looks a little familiar The class meshes nicely though, shame about the maneuvers or I'd possibly use this. That IS the reason I'm trying to make something a little like this myself though, so I can have a shield class in 3.5 basic!

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Well without the maneuvers, it would take a lot more to give the class any sort of flexibility. With it being such a defensively oriented class, I'd have to toss on another half dozen offensively oriented abilities so that the class could do something other than suppress magic, and likely also have to ad hoc some new resource system limit how often the class could do it.

Like my initial draft was a non-initiator, but it was just so messy and all over the place, granting an initiation progression really just streamlined everything so the class could hit a interesting balance point without having to make the class 3 times longer than it is.

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Originally Posted by Seerow

Like my initial draft was a non-initiator, but it was just so messy and all over the place, granting an initiation progression really just streamlined everything so the class could hit a interesting balance point without having to make the class 3 times longer than it is.

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That's exactly the trouble I keep coming up against...still bugging me though, there's a simpler way I'm sure, just not come up with it yet!

Regardless, this is a really rather nice class, seems reasonably well balanced to me, and certainly ups the anti-mage capability of any shield using martial class. The all good saves, 4 skills and D12 seems a bit much, but I'm not sure where you'd shave any off without losing the point of the class. I suppose the Fort could drop to poor, and the HD could drop to D10, but I don't know if there's over much point.

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Originally Posted by Veklim

That's exactly the trouble I keep coming up against...still bugging me though, there's a simpler way I'm sure, just not come up with it yet!

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Basically without some resource system, it won't work is the problem I keep running up against. Though if it's just the ToB system you dislike, you'll probably like the other project I'm currently working on (whenever I get around to finishing and posting it).

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Regardless, this is a really rather nice class, seems reasonably well balanced to me, and certainly ups the anti-mage capability of any shield using martial class. The all good saves, 4 skills and D12 seems a bit much, but I'm not sure where you'd shave any off without losing the point of the class. I suppose the Fort could drop to poor, and the HD could drop to D10, but I don't know if there's over much point.

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Personally I consider 4 skills the baseline minimum for any non-fullcaster, and a high fort helps a lot against casters. I could drop the HD all the way down to a d8 or d6 and not hurt too much (it's the difference of 20-30 average hitpoints by level 20), but it raises the question of "Why?"