Elan's Happy Ending

(might be some spoilers)

We all know Elan asked the Oracle if this story will have a happy ending and he said that it will for you at least. Knowing this we can assume some of the party members will not have a very happy ending.

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Redcloak: (I have this in a spoiler since I can not for the life of me remember if the main comic stated it or not) His plan is to release the snarl for the Dark One to use as a bargaining chip to get Goblinkind a better life or worse case destroy the world so the Dark One will have a voice with the new creation. The plan is for EQUAL place not superior in my eyes at least this seems fair and actually more good then evil. Unfortunately because he is a goblin he is forced to team up with Xykon which it has been revealed was not what he had in mind and showed reluctance until it became clear he had no choice. It has finally became a point that he is actively trying to retame and control Xykon for the Goblins chance at a better life.

Elan: It has already shown he is not racist since he did like (if not love in a way) a half-orc. He has also showed that he has a child like view of the world.

If Redcloak reveals why he is doing everything can Elan really stop that AND have a happy ending?

I doubt Elan would ever know about, let alone understand, Redcloak's plan. And since the Gobbotopia is being accepted by other nations I assume that the goblinoids will reach equality even without Redcloak's success.

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Originally Posted by 2323mike

I doubt Elan would ever know about, let alone understand, Redcloak's plan. And since the Gobbotopia is being accepted by other nations I assume that the goblinoids will reach equality even without Redcloak's success.

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Gobbotopia is only really being accepted by 3rd world(ish) countries and bandit countries not by the major powers I thought. And with Elan finding out all it would take would be for redcloak do the stereotypical evil villain rant.

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Originally Posted by Rougn

Gobbotopia is only really being accepted by 3rd world(ish) countries and bandit countries not by the major powers I thought. And with Elan finding out all it would take would be for redcloak do the stereotypical evil villain rant.

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No, at least one major city economic power (the City State of Cliffport) has recognized Gobbotopia. I don't think its a coincidence that Redcloak has technically accomplished a lot of what he originally set out to do, and is still going along with the plan. He is supposed to be something of a tragic villain, after all.

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Originally Posted by Rougn

Gobbotopia is only really being accepted by 3rd world(ish) countries and bandit countries not by the major powers I thought. And with Elan finding out all it would take would be for redcloak do the stereotypical evil villain rant.

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How do you know that? And what are the major powers, anyway? So far, one of the oldest and most powerful coutry has been destroyed by Xykon and Redcloak, another (Cliffport) acknowledged Gobbotopia already. The most powerful nations on the Western continent aren't exactly Good, and the -where kingdoms are small-scale enough that a pair of moderately-leveled assasins seem to be all that it takes to kill the king.

Also, Redcloak is far from a stereotypical villain and has little reason to explain his plan unless he is 100% sure the hearer will not see the next sunrise.

Quite apart from the above objections, I don't think Elan would lose much sleep over stopping Redcloak's plan, no matter how justified it is.

It's not just that Redcloak is the bad guy, and Elan is a sucker for dramatic convention. Elan has lost friends to Redcloak's crusade, and he's seen the amount of suffering it's caused. And he's still naive enough to think that if Redcloak really wanted equality, there are better ways of doing it that all-out war or, even worse, trying to control the Snarl.

So, sure, he may appreciate the tragedy of Redcloak's position, and it may upset him for a while, but he's not going to let it get in the way of his happy ending.

P.S. My first post here in months... whoo!

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Originally Posted by fergo

... no matter how justified it is.[/SIZE]

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... which it is not. So we do not need to bother to think about this. ;)

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Originally Posted by Winter

... which it is not. So we do not need to bother to think about this. ;)

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Well, Elan has a tendancy to be a bit soppy. Learning that the evil guy had good intentions all along (and wasn't must being a big meanie for the sake of it) might give him a pause for thought.

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Originally Posted by fergo

Well, Elan has a tendancy to be a bit soppy. Learning that the evil guy had good intentions all along (and wasn't must being a big meanie for the sake of it) might give him a pause for thought.

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But then he will say "But... but you killed all those people for this silly plan? Even if you did not have to? You are a... a horrible person!" and we are back on track.

Exactly my point :smallbiggrin:. I just think that it's relevant that, more so than anyone else, he'd be sympathetic to Redcloak... even if it was just for a moment.

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Originally Posted by 2323mike

How do you know that? And what are the major powers, anyway? So far, one of the oldest and most powerful coutry has been destroyed by Xykon and Redcloak, another (Cliffport) acknowledged Gobbotopia already. The most powerful nations on the Western continent aren't exactly Good, and the -where kingdoms are small-scale enough that a pair of moderately-leveled assasins seem to be all that it takes to kill the king.

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Redcloak characterized Gobbotopia's pre-Cliffport recognition portfolio as being composed of "some of the more mercenary nations". This doesn't say much about their power, but rather their diplomatic strategies, but it does explaim where one might get the idea that Cliffport is the powerful exception among them all.

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Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

Redcloak characterized Gobbotopia's pre-Cliffport recognition portfolio as being composed of "some of the more mercenary nations". This doesn't say much about their power, but rather their diplomatic strategies, but it does explaim where one might get the idea that Cliffport is the powerful exception among them all.

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I think another thing that makes Cliffport important is that it's one of the world's major trading powers, so getting it to recognize Gobbotopia is a huge step towards self-sufficiency, since the inhabitants can now trade for supplies they don't have on hand.

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Originally Posted by fergo

And he's still naive enough to think that if Redcloak really wanted equality, there are better ways of doing it that all-out war or, even worse, trying to control the Snarl.

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Which, as it happens, could very well be true.

Simple. The comic ends with Elan visiting a massage parlor.

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Originally Posted by 2323mike

I doubt Elan would ever know about, let alone understand, Redcloak's plan. And since the Gobbotopia is being accepted by other nations I assume that the goblinoids will reach equality even without Redcloak's success.

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I have to wonder - is The Plan going to actually end up destroying Gobbotopia? It is build right under a massive rift. If anything goes wrong with the last gate (or last two gates - I'm kind of assuming that the current storyline in the pyramid is going to end with an exploding gate :smallbiggrin:) Redcloak will basically end up releasing the Snarl right on top of his beloved Goblinoid nation. Could realizing this possibility cause a last miute Heel Face Turn by everyone favorite goblin cleric?

Just one problem with that idea:

Even IF Redcloak would be ok with equality instead of superiority, who says that the Dark One actually is?
Sure he might have told Redcloak that. But he's an Evil god. He tells people what they want to hear, so they go along with his Plan.

Seriously, if an Evil god has a doomsday weapon aimed at the other gods, why would he stop at equality?

Elan might figure that out.

I wonder which one of the two is inherently more Evil - Redcloak, or the Dark One?

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Originally Posted by 2323mike

I wonder which one of the two is inherently more Evil - Redcloak, or the Dark One?

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If the Dark One was more interested in coexistence than Redcloak seems to be, you'd think he'd have given Redcloak a less approving message.

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Originally Posted by Morquard

Just one problem with that idea:

Even IF Redcloak would be ok with equality instead of superiority, who says that the Dark One actually is?
Sure he might have told Redcloak that. But he's an Evil god. He tells people what they want to hear, so they go along with his Plan.

Seriously, if an Evil god has a doomsday weapon aimed at the other gods, why would he stop at equality?

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Because he's not sure if he can get away with anything more?

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Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046

Because he's not sure if he can get away with anything more?

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The Plan exists to give the Dark One the power to deploy an unstoppable superweapon anywhere he likes and anytime he chooses. With what, assuming as the Dark One does that The Plan should work as intended (with no wrinkles like there being a planet where the Snarl is supposed to be), can he not get away?

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Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

The Plan exists to give the Dark One the power to deploy an unstoppable superweapon anywhere he likes and anytime he chooses. With what, assuming as the Dark One does that The Plan should work as intended (with no wrinkles like there being a planet where the Snarl is supposed to be), can he not get away?

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If he pushes the Gods too far, they may refuse his demands, gambling that they can escape and rebind the Snarl (after they kill him, of course).

10 gp says he discovers a land made entirely out of ice cream.

There will be a demi-plane of ice cream somewhere. Where the lawful forces of Vanilla war with the chaotic forces of Strawberry and the neutral side of Chocolate acts as a mercenary nation. Other flavours would most likely be animals and monsters.

On a more serious note, I suspect that Elan's happy ending has to involve Haley at least, if not the majority of the good guys, surviving.

Every time I see this thread pop up, I keep thinking of Elan running a massage parlour, and Haley being his only customer.

I think Elan would be happy enough if Redloak was defeated, but a non-Evil goblin nation manages to take off. Perhaps Jirix will give up his cleric powers when he realized that the Dark One isn't going to settle for mere coexistence (unless he legitimately does only want a fair shake and not whatever he can get away with, which seems to run counter to him being god of all three Goblin races when they're three different flavors of Often Evil).

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Originally Posted by Acanous

Every time I see this thread pop up, I keep thinking of Elan running a massage parlour, and Haley being his only customer.

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Vice-versa would be a little more fitting...we'd probably better not go too far with this line of thought, lest the scrubbers arrive.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

I suspect that Elan's happy ending has to involve Haley at least, if not the majority of the good guys, surviving.

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Being a bard, Elan sees the world through storytelling tropes, and thus his definition of a happy ending is probably "save the world, get the girl, live happily ever after". By that, we can assume that Haley is safe, but most other characters are fair game.

As for Redcloak and the Plan, I think that Redcloak is, sooner or later, going to turn on Xykon and help the Order defeat him. If that happens, I think that Elan would be happy to help Redcloak come up with a peaceful solution to the goblin's plight.

I think the real issue is:

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How will he have a happy ending while knowing he will have to anticlimactically kill his father.

Spoilered for your convenience.

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Originally Posted by Gbrngfol

I think the real issue is:

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How will he have a happy ending while knowing he will have to anticlimactically kill his father.

Spoilered for your convenience.

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Actually it is KNOWN that he will kill his Father. All that is known is that they have to eventually fight. It could potentially lead up to a Luke Skywalker & Darth Vader type thing where he invariable saves his Father from the Dark Side, but he still dies...

That is sort of a bitter sweet happy ending. :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Arcanist

Actually it is KNOWN that he will kill his Father. All that is known is that they have to eventually fight. It could potentially lead up to a Luke Skywalker & Darth Vader type thing where he invariable saves his Father from the Dark Side, but he still dies...

That is sort of a bitter sweet happy ending. :smallsmile:

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Agreed. Search your feelings... you know it to be true.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

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Originally Posted by Arcanist

Actually it is KNOWN that he will kill his Father. All that is known is that they have to eventually fight. It could potentially lead up to a Luke Skywalker & Darth Vader type thing where he invariable saves his Father from the Dark Side, but he still dies...

That is sort of a bitter sweet happy ending. :smallsmile:

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I think he would be a bit more upset about the anticlimactic part.

But remember sometimes the oracle lies or can lie which mean elan very well may not have a "happy ending" I think he will have to kill his father and brother sadly because it's obvious both of them fall in the evil aligment and it's just never going to work out. at the least they will end up un jail but even then..

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Originally Posted by Syncro

But remember sometimes the oracle lies or can lie which mean elan very well may not have a "happy ending"

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There's a difference between "the Oracle is no more compelled to make his ordinary statements truthful than Roy is" and "the Oracle's prophecies are sometimes lies." The Oracle is going to be torn apart because, when a druid asks if his wife is cheating on him, the Oracle will reply with the truth (amplified with condescending snark) instead of the obvious this-will-avoid-brutal-pain lie "No, she isn't," remember?

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Originally Posted by Rougn

If Redcloak reveals why he is doing everything can Elan really stop that AND have a happy ending?

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Remember that all we know about the ending is that the Oracle can justify defining it as "happy".

Elan's Good, he's fought Xykon/Redcloak and he's fought goblins in the past, so even if it turns out that the story ends with the patently Evil goblinoids thoroughly defeated, RC slain, goblin blood everywhere, and also Elan's über-Evil father and brother both dead, it's certainly still technically a "happy ending" for the Good guys.

Elan didn't ask "Will I be perfectly happy with the story's ending?"...
He asked "Will this story have a happy ending [for me]?".

It's entirely possible to be personally unsatisfied with the exact details of a (generally) happy ending...

And there's just as much difference between those two formulations above as there is, for example, between
"Will I get to kill Roy?"
and
"Will I get to do something that will contribute to causing Roy's death?"

Personally, I think that Elan was loveable enough (see: stupid puppy) that the Oracle was being straight up with him about his fortune. It was a simple, arguably non-selfish question that was asked by one of the most naive, innocent characters in the entire party.

I kind of see similarities between how the Oracle answers questions, to how a Wish could (or could not) be perverted and twisted if it was really selfish or out of the spell's normal range of power.

"Happy ending" doesn't mean "everything and everyone basically decent lives happily ever after". There can be tragedies and losses along the way to the ending (see "Therkla, death of").

In Elan's case, not only his father and his brother, but even his mother - and Roy, his proxy father - could also die tragically, and still the ending would qualify as "happy" if he and Haley get to settle down peacefully somewhere.

And the idea of an "ending" implies that most, if not all, of the obvious loose ends are tied up. That implies that Nale, Tarquin, Xykon and Redcloak are all accounted for, and the Dark One's/goblins' plotline is resolved somehow, so that it won't come back to bite the world again in the near future.

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Originally Posted by VanIsleKnight

Personally, I think that Elan was loveable enough (see: stupid puppy) that the Oracle was being straight up with him about his fortune. It was a simple, arguably non-selfish question that was asked by one of the most naive, innocent characters in the entire party.

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Elan's question, lovable puppy or not, was still extremely straightforward, and therefore my opinion is that there's no way the Oracle's simple "yes" answer can be considered an element supporting the idea that the state of the story, at its endpoint, will be completely devoid of any aspects Elan could possibly dislike.

(such as, for example, "the green/orange humanoids who only aspired to having the right of self-determination were, in the end, bloodily defeated". See this thread's OP.)

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Originally Posted by lio45

(such as, for example, "the green/orange humanoids who only aspired to having the right of self-determination were, in the end, bloodily defeated". See this thread's OP.)

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No, the problem with that possibility isn't so much that "Elan wouldn't be entirely happy with it" as that "it wouldn't really be an ending". Military defeat would be a temporary setback for the goblins' cause, not a sustainable resolution.

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Originally Posted by veti

No, the problem with that possibility isn't so much that "Elan wouldn't be entirely happy with it" as that "it wouldn't really be an ending". Military defeat would be a temporary setback for the goblins' cause, not a sustainable resolution.

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As someone wise once said, the ending is nothing but the point where the storyteller chooses to stop telling his story...

Whether or not Rich's chosen ending is "really an ending" to you or not, it's literally the story's one, true, official, complete, absolute ending. No ifs and buts about it.

Let's say the goblins are militarily defeated... they're simply back to square one, a monster race / XP fodder among others. Which is where they were in the first place and where they spent their first millenium since creation... so why wouldn't that state of affairs be reasonably "sustainable"? Personally, if it turns out the story ends that way, I won't be among those screaming "unresolved plot point!!"


And re: the OP, yes, the problem seemed to be exactly "Elan wouldn't be entirely happy with it". Which is why I'm throwing my two cents in here, saying that the way the Oracle gives his answers, it's pretty obvious that Elan's ending needn't be entirely happy to qualify.

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Originally Posted by lio45

As someone wise once said, the ending is nothing but the point where the storyteller chooses to stop telling his story...

Whether or not Rich's chosen ending is "really an ending" to you or not, it's literally the story's one, true, official, complete, absolute ending. No ifs and buts about it.

Let's say the goblins are militarily defeated... they're simply back to square one, a monster race / XP fodder among others. Which is where they were in the first place and where they spent their first millenium since creation... so why wouldn't that state of affairs be reasonably "sustainable"? Personally, if it turns out the story ends that way, I won't be among those screaming "unresolved plot point!!"


And re: the OP, yes, the problem seemed to be exactly "Elan wouldn't be entirely happy with it". Which is why I'm throwing my two cents in here, saying that the way the Oracle gives his answers, it's pretty obvious that Elan's ending needn't be entirely happy to qualify.

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Who's to say the defeat of the Goblin will put them all the way back as XP fodder, a more diplomatic peace is still possible that allows for a Goblin nation that is accepted by the rest of the world with goblins no longer XP fodder, but an actual geopolitical force. Look at Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country, the Federation could have left the Klingons to die, instead hte beginnings of a peace emerged, and look what happened afterwards, Federation and Klingon vessels working together in combat against the Dominion, were there still negative encounters between the two? Oh yes, but the point is just because Red Cloak may be defeated, and Azure city perhaps liberated, doesn't mean our victors have to be over zealous in their peace demands.

Here's something people haven't considered Elan doesn't have to survive to have a happy ending. For him dying heroically to save the rest of the party and the world would be a happy ending.

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Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak

Here's something people haven't considered Elan doesn't have to survive to have a happy ending. For him dying heroically to save the rest of the party and the world would be a happy ending.

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Personally, I could see this kind of twist ending taking place, especially if it involves Elan sacrificing himself for Haley. Even though he may die at the end, Haley's survival could make it all worth it for him. Happiness is kind of relative, after all, and it would be somewhat unexpected.

Or he might just visit a massage parlor at some point. Who knows.

I'm not really sure a heroic death qualifies as a "happy" ending. A satisfying one, maybe.

It is worth remembering, here, the exact wording used.

Elan - "Will this story have a happy ending?"
Oracle - "Yes - for you, at least."

Assuming the Oracle said the truth, and didn't try to twist things around (a valid assumption given the way the Oracle reacts to his questioners in the manner they act towards him), then we can deduce the following:

a) the story will have an ending,
b) Elan will be happy when the story ends.

Personally, (and everyone except Rich has to add that qualifier) I believe that this means Elan will be alive and happy at the outcome.

This does not require the goblins to be permanently defeated.
This does not require the gates to be permanently sealed.
This does require that both Elan and Haley survive. (I cannot see Elan being happy if either of them dies, whatever the circumstances. Satisfied, possibly, but not happy.)

Everything else is up for grabs. My personal (and I repeat, personal) thought is that there will be members of the party that will be distinctly unhappy when the story ends.
Durkon - will return to his lands, posthumously. May well die within the sotry in order to have us see him returning.
Belkar - he will die. Lets just leave it at that.
Vaarsuvius - he may well die, or may well live. The denizens of hell controlling his body for a fateful few minutes may well decide which.
Roy - Ditto. He may well bite it making sure his team has a chance to prevail, or he may live on to become a future king. He may even be ensnarled without warning. Only Rich knows for sure.

We can also guess that this current plot arc involving his evil dad will be resolved before the end of the story. Including, possibly, reconciliation with Nale. Or possibly not.

As I have said before, only Rich knows for sure.
Excelsior!
Niknokitueu

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Originally Posted by Niknokitueu

It is worth remembering, here, the exact wording used.

Elan - "Will this story have a happy ending?"
Oracle - "Yes - for you, at least."

Assuming the Oracle said the truth, and didn't try to twist things around (a valid assumption given the way the Oracle reacts to his questioners in the manner they act towards him)

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I'd disagree with calling that assumption valid.

Regardless of attitude, from what we've seen in the comic, I'd venture a guess that the simple fact of being one of those disgusting, hairy, annoying mammals is likely enough to tick the Oracle off and put you into the category of un-welcome customers right then...

A good guy like Roy, being told "In his throne room" to the question "Where's Xykon?", you think that supports the assumption that the Oracle will go out of his way to make his answers particularly helpful if you're behaving like a good mammal during your visit?

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then we can deduce the following:

a) the story will have an ending,
b) Elan will be happy when the story ends.

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Given the above, and as I said earlier in this thread on this page, I'd replace your b) with

b) the Oracle is confident he can easily defend/justify his labeling of Elan's ending as "happy" under the accepted/widespread/standard definitions of what generally constitutes a happy ending in fiction.

So my b) is actually slightly less restrictive than yours, and allows Elan to be unhappy at several aspects of the ending (for example, his father's fate, his brother's fate, the green humanoids who aspire to nationhood's fates)... as long as the good guys have won, the bad guys are defeated, and Elan/Haley are alive, it could technically pass off as a happy ending IMO.

It's worth pointing out that this doesn't mean what you would call a happy ending, or what I would call a happy ending.

I think we're guaranteed what a simplistic but genre-savvy bard would consider a happy ending.

A cursory glance at stories through the ages shows that that can include deaths or other tragedies along the way.