Bad guy is big and breaks things

I have this concept for a bad guy that breaks things,
but a few of the class ideas I have don't seem like they would work...


Blackguard fits the flavor perfectly as well as having cleave and sunder as prereqs, but this guy wouldn't exactly go around sneak attacking people. He's more a 'smack yo bitch up' type. TBH sneak attack seems tacked onto the Blackguard, I'm looking for some more alternatives to that type of character.

I was also thinking of using the Legendary Weapon variant, and having him take levels in Battle Scion. He would use a Large or Huge Warmace, still haven't ironed out what it would give him, but probably bonuses to Sunder and Disarm, and beyond that I get stumped. I also need a name for this legendary weapon.


Another idea I had is gestalting cleric and something else, but I can't think of anything except fighter to get bonus feats. I don't want him too overly powerful, but definitely scary. I don't know how the encounter will work, but I'm thinking about giving him a few extra actions each turn to break up the action a little bit.

His name is Sarnath the Destroyer.

Make sure to give him an adamantine weapon to ignore hardness on some objects.

Adamantine weapons ignore hardness under 20. So it's a no brainer for a Sunder build. Improved Sunder/Disarm feats are pretty obvious too. Otherwise I'm not really sure.

Do you have players who absolutely require that all your characters be built using class rules? Remember, you're the DM, as long as you're not being completely absurd you can take some liberties to design the guy how you like.

This doesn't work if you have players who will demand to know why he doesn't follow any logical build though.

If you give him a class, race, or PrC with the ability to rage, you could then give him the Destructive Rage feat.

This just screams Barbarian to me.

Bladebreaker sounds nice for a large legendary mace.

If you let him wield an adamantine weapon and give him enough strength he could easily use an unconvetional tactic where he smashes walls and stuff to send rubble flying into the PCs faces possibly blinding them. Surprising your players like that is one of the best thing about being a DM :smallbiggrin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grelna the Blue

If you give him a class, race, or PrC with the ability to rage, you could then give him the Destructive Rage feat.

---

This, plus Dungeoncrasher (gives benefits to strength checks to break objects on top of the bull rush fun), plus the Fighter's Dead Levels pseudo-ACF.

Edit: A level of Binder wouldn't hurt either. Aym, a first-level vestige, gets you doubled damage against objects. This will help you in a sunder specifically, unlike the above stuff.

Goliath Greathammers get a +2 bonus on sunder attempts, if you're wanting to pump sunder and aren't set on using a warmace.

Also, if this guy is larger than the PCs, he'll get a bonus on sunder just from his size.

What level is the party and how powerful are they? Could we get a list of what they are?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sipex

Do you have players who absolutely require that all your characters be built using class rules? Remember, you're the DM, as long as you're not being completely absurd you can take some liberties to design the guy how you like.

This doesn't work if you have players who will demand to know why he doesn't follow any logical build though.

---

I don't think people around here like getting such suggestions. :smallbiggrin:

You're right of course, but there's very long threads about people complaining how such things are betraying the players and completely destroying their trust. :smallconfused:

Oh, sorry, I play 4e which actively discourages the DM from building characters along the same guidelines as a player character (since the balance doesn't work out and a PC is a lot of extra work to run) so it's so weird to see everyone so focused on making BBEGs who follow the same rules as players.

Make him a Frenzied Berserker, your players will really appreciate it. Just don't let them know that's what he is ahead of time, cause then they will just prepare some calm emotions spell or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Popertop

Blackguard

---

Since Blackguard was explicitly mentioned, how about just straight Paladin (of the slaughter variety) + some appropriate Paladin fix?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drogorn

Goliath Greathammers get a +2 bonus on sunder attempts, if you're wanting to pump sunder and aren't set on using a warmace.

Also, if this guy is larger than the PCs, he'll get a bonus on sunder just from his size.

What level is the party and how powerful are they? Could we get a list of what they are?

---

I am set on using a warmace. Part of this guy's plan involves ascending to godhood, warmace is going to be his deific weapon of choice. I can tack on whatever I want for Legendary Weapon anyways.

There is no campaign yet, but I was hoping to have this guy online by mid levels. I was planning on maybe using this in my limited magic campaign so I don't have to worry about caster shenanigans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darwin

This just screams Barbarian to me.

Bladebreaker sounds nice for a large legendary mace.

---

Perfect.
I'll look into more barbarian stuff. I was trying to avoid that because I was going more for a "profane tyrant" kind of thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sipex

Do you have players who absolutely require that all your characters be built using class rules? Remember, you're the DM, as long as you're not being completely absurd you can take some liberties to design the guy how you like.

This doesn't work if you have players who will demand to know why he doesn't follow any logical build though.

---

See here, I would rather use some existing rule (why not there's so much material) or have a creative build than break the rules. If it can be done in the system then do it that way. I have too much experience with DMs that in order to up the challenge do it in really uninventive ways (vorpal whoring, wish whoring, directly countering PC class features). I want to try and reserve the "rule breaking" for only certain, exceptional villains, and only then when it has an impact on the story and is very interesting to interact with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cog

This, plus Dungeoncrasher (gives benefits to strength checks to break objects on top of the bull rush fun), plus the Fighter's Dead Levels pseudo-ACF.

Edit: A level of Binder wouldn't hurt either. Aym, a first-level vestige, gets you doubled damage against objects. This will help you in a sunder specifically, unlike the above stuff.

---

For Dungeoncrasher, I could just tack that on as an ability he gets from his Legendary Weapon. Same goes with the binder trick, but I'm not averse to trying Binder out. I can basically do whatever I want with the legendary weapon.

What else would Binder have to offer to this villain?

I was thinking of making this more opposite of paladin feel, but paladin just isn't very strong, a fix seems like too much work when I can just take levels in cleric. That way I can also give him the domains he'll have a (prospective) deity.

My initial thought was to go gestalt Cleric//Fighter/Battle Scion, but now I think Binder//Fighter/Battle Scion might be more appropriate.

Heh. I built the same thing for the dumb-as-a-brick minion of a BBEG for a campaign I plotted out recently. He was a Half-Demon Minotaur 6/Barbarian 1/Runescarred Berserker 10... but I'm going off topic. To make a sundering, crushing BBEG, take a strong race and give it levels in a muscular class. Barbarian with Spirit Lion Totem does nicely, and there are some good barbarian PRCs out there (Runescarred Berserker, Bear Warrior, Frenzied Berserker). Then, take Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Brute, and Shock Trooper. In combat, you charge with a greatsword, break their weapon, and get a full attack with lots of PA at no cost to your to-hit. If that doesn't kill them, full attack next round with a x3 return on your PA. If you have the feats (maybe a couple of fighter levels or something), also look at Knockback and Rampaging Bull Rush. Do the same thing, but push them up to 20 feet and knock them prone too.

Of course, it doesn't have to get that high. Just Power Attack, Improved Sunder, and Combat Brute are already enough to hurt and sunder. Just remember, PCs don't like it when you crush their loots.

Edit: If you want to go Binder//Fighter, be sure to take at least one level of Lion Totem Barbarian at some point for pounce. I'm not familiar with Battle Scion.

Give him the Half Minotaur template and have him take levels in War Hulk.

Isn't there a PrC in the planar handbook or manual of the plains that focuses on breaking things?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mootoall

Give him the Half Minotaur template and have him take levels in War Hulk.

---

Hahaha, I was thinking about doing this.
I didn't want it too over the top though.

How much is 'too over-the-top' here? Are we talking 'crushy-sundery' or are we talking 'charge-sunder-beat to a bloody pulp in one full attack charge action'? If the former, you can't go wrong with just a full-BAB charging class and Combat Brute. If the latter, Half-Minotaur War Hulk with those feats I said is the way to go. Somewhere in between is probably your best bet, depending on the op-level of the party in question.

Name his sword Gorgorin the Shatterer.

Cookies to anyone that gets the reference.

Just a suggestion re: Warmace---nix the stupid AC penalty because it's "large and unwieldy."

Sure, it probably is, but it's lighter than the Maul, which deals less damage and yet is somehow heavier. See the Complete Warrior table and compare their statistics.

Use of thr Mountain Hammer chain of maneuvers?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lateral

How much is 'too over-the-top' here? Are we talking 'crushy-sundery' or are we talking 'charge-sunder-beat to a bloody pulp in one full attack charge action'? If the former, you can't go wrong with just a full-BAB charging class and Combat Brute. If the latter, Half-Minotaur War Hulk with those feats I said is the way to go. Somewhere in between is probably your best bet, depending on the op-level of the party in question.

---

Yeah the middle ground is about where I want to land.

The trouble I'm having is fitting in the Blackguard flavor.
Blackguard, Paladin, and the paladin variants are too weak/MAD
to do what I want. Plus I think he's less concerned with smiting
good than he is with crushing whoever gets in his way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AslanCross

Just a suggestion re: Warmace---nix the stupid AC penalty because it's "large and unwieldy."

---

Already done. I'm modifying the Warmace's stats to be as such:
1d12 19-20/x3
no penalty to wield

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lateral

How much is 'too over-the-top' here? Are we talking 'crushy-sundery' or are we talking 'charge-sunder-beat to a bloody pulp in one full attack charge action'? If the former, you can't go wrong with just a full-BAB charging class and Combat Brute. If the latter, Half-Minotaur War Hulk with those feats I said is the way to go. Somewhere in between is probably your best bet, depending on the op-level of the party in question.

---

There's something to be said for a villain who immediately slaughters everyone who he manages to reach. If the players wouldn't mind losing a player or two, throw your guy at them like a normal encounter but have him immediately demonstrate his power on a nearby target. If you're feeling nice, have that target be a friendly NPC.

At this point, the party has to either frantically scramble out of the dungeon while being pursued by an enemy who can smash through pretty much any obstruction, or attempt to kite him under the same conditions.

A single lucky Save or Lose could completely mess up his rampage, but if you're going low magic that might be less of a risk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Popertop

Yeah the middle ground is about where I want to land.

The trouble I'm having is fitting in the Blackguard flavor.
Blackguard, Paladin, and the paladin variants are too weak/MAD
to do what I want. Plus I think he's less concerned with smiting
good than he is with crushing whoever gets in his way.

---

Hmm... so far I /agree with the Half-Minotaur reasoning, especially if you want a BBEG (emphasis added).

Something that kind of gives the feel of a Blackguard is the Death Knight PrC from WoW's Roleplaying Game: Dark Factions.

Same bonuses as a Blackguard but less spell and Sneak attack oriented and more "DIE WORM" feel.

Also +1 for War Hulk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Popertop

The trouble I'm having is fitting in the Blackguard flavor.
Blackguard, Paladin, and the paladin variants are too weak/MAD
to do what I want. Plus I think he's less concerned with smiting
good than he is with crushing whoever gets in his way.

---

Try just making him a Half-Fiend, Half-Minotaur Water Orc. No, I don't really understand how that would work, but it's cool. :smallamused: You could do a Fiendish Half-Minotaur (X race) instead, since that's got a lower LA and CRA.

Plus, you get cool SLAs and Smite Good 1/day.

War hulk is probably a good idea if he really just is a guy who breaks stuff. War hulk tends to be more suited to a "Thog Smash!" kind of character though.

Also, a blackguard's sneak attack could simply be interpreted as fighting dirty. As in "Sarnath smash where it hurts!"

After reading up on some Hexblade, that seems more his style than blackguard.
I can lift the light armor limitation, that doesn't bother me. I can't picture this guy with anything less than heavy armor. Also, I don't find most of the heavy armors around very impressive. I would want to design his own armor I guess.

That also got me wondering though, can you combine familiar and fiendish servant? Is there any base blackguard class around?

Not sure if you can combine Fiendish Servant and familiar by RAW (since the two don't stack, you might be better off just choosing one and sticking to it). The Dark Companion ACF for the Hexblade (PHB2) is also a good option.

There is an Antipaladin from Pathfinder, which can easily be reverse-engineered into 3.5 (or be used as is).

:smalleek: The anti-paladin becomes immune to the penalties and damage given by diseases at level 3... that means we can get the Festering Anger Abuse from level 3....

If you combine it with that sigil for Illuminians that makes their bonus spells key of strength :eek:.... I need to do a BBEG gish using this.:smallamused:

/Tangent.

Now on-topic, remember that violent rich hobos sorry PC don't take kindly if someone destroys their loot, so be prepared to recover the destroyed loot in some way after this guy bites the dust; or you will have to suffer constant whining from disgruntled players.

I'm well aware that losing loot is a fate worse than death.
I'm prepared to compensate them for their losses,
I just need to come up with interesting, interactive ways
of breaking all their stuff.