Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)

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This actually could use fixing; I'll get to work thinking about how to fix it in my paladin fix part 2.

I don't want to make it too powerful, though; the Paladin can use Divine Favor to get roughly a third to half of the raw offensive power of the barbarian, so on top of other spells and half the feats of the fighter, it could very easily become too much.

Unless I reduce his feats; that actually might be a good idea. I'll think about it.

Quote:

  • All the class features are concentrated in the first few levels, leaving little incentive not to multiclass out.
  • Not really. There are no new class features after the first few levels, but most of the existing ones are level-dependent, so by multiclassing out you're giving up most of the benefit of those abilities.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    These are the most insignificant feats in the entire game (in fact, they're so insignificant that you almost might as well have given up those feat slots altogether).

    How so? For the cost of one feat, you get what amounts to a +2 bonus on all combat maneuvers you're focusing on, as well as a far more efficient Power Attack and Combat Expertise.

    Quote:

    compare them to Elusive Target, for instance - comes very handy when facing a full attack by a great wyrm
    Comparing something to an overpowered homebrew feat isn't really a good measure of balance.

    That said, my fix does have something of use when facing a full attack by a great wyrm; it's called Improved Dodge, and works a lot better when you can get a high Dodge bonus with Combat Expertise, Improved Defense, and 4 +25% feats (of which 3 are fighter-only).

    Quote:

    They work well only for those that engage in strategy-less straight combat.
    Perhaps you're misreading them. Their whole strength is that they improve not one option but a whole slew of them, allowing you to have numerous options from which to pick the best one (the essence of strategy).

    Quote:

    Click This to get some clues regarding a handful of the melees' problems (and the list goes on and on).
    Let's go through that...
    -First a bit about tier 1s. As I said, this is part of a general fix (linked) in which tier 1s are substantially depowered. That said, fighter is not meant to be able to beat a wizard of equal level; if you want to make a wizard cry, send a monk. (Fighter is meant to beat monk, by the way.)
    -Enervation was mentioned. This (ranged touch attacks) is actually one area in which fighters have been made far more effective against casters, through boosts to Combat Expertise. (Of course, other classes can use Combat Expertise too, but they can only boost it to 225% effectiveness, and have to spend a substantial portion of their feats to do so, while a fighter can boost it to 300% effectiveness at a substantially lower cost.)
    -A point about the importance of versatility. If there's one thing the new fighter is good at, it's versatility.
    -More about how wizards are broken; there's a reason my wizard fix was 3 parts.

    I am fully aware of why wizards beat fighters, and that was mostly dealt with in my wizard fix (a bit is dealt with here, and some was left in place because everyone needs some weaknesses); the point here is more that a fighter should be able to beat monsters, most clerics or druids, and other physical combat classes (including rogues who try to use a direct approach or flanking, but not rogues who use sniping; feinting rogues can go either way).
  • 2011-12-06, 02:09 PM
    NeoSeraphi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Comparing something to an overpowered homebrew feat isn't really a good measure of balance.

    That said, my fix does have something of use when facing a full attack by a great wyrm; it's called Improved Dodge, and works a lot better when you can get a high Dodge bonus with Combat Expertise, Improved Defense, and 4 +25% feats (of which 3 are fighter-only).

    Elusive Target is NOT an "overpowered homebrew feat".
  • 2011-12-06, 02:37 PM
    Yitzi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Elusive Target is NOT an "overpowered homebrew feat".

    Whoops, a Google search found me a homebrew version, and I didn't realize it was based on a non-homebrew feat.

    And I don't really see why this one is so much better than the +25% feats. Negating Power Attack is always nice, but a well-built fighter will have no trouble punishing Power Attackers by boosting his AC. (He can also undo the effects of Power Attack with Take the Blow.) The anti-flanking ability is cool, but doesn't seem that useful most of the time. And while the overreach ability is useful, if you're serious about tripping you can use the trip bonus from the +25% feats (as well as the ability to get Greater Trip and still have enough feats for several other options), and if not you don't have much chance of making the trip check anyway against many monsters.

    Also, I've thought more about Smite Evil, and concluded it doesn't really need that much boosting. When used on a charge with a lance and Spirited Charge (pretty much classic paladin), it can do 3X the paladin's level in damage, and not only doesn't cost attack bonus the way Power Attack does, but actually gives a minor boost. Add Divine Favor and a few well-chosen feats on top of that, and paladins are the best alpha strikers by far. (Well, except against low-AC enemies, where barbarians and fighters can use power attack to pull ahead.) Some is still needed because it can't be used on an entire attack sequence, but not as much as one might think.

    The real problem that paladins have is that feats like Shock Trooper allow non-paladins to compete with Smite Evil, and do it more often, but this fix assumes the absence of those feats.
  • 2011-12-06, 02:45 PM
    NeoSeraphi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Whoops, a Google search found me a homebrew version, and I didn't realize it was based on a non-homebrew feat.

    And I don't really see why this one is so much better than the +25% feats. Negating Power Attack is always nice, but a well-built fighter will have no trouble punishing Power Attackers by boosting his AC. (He can also undo the effects of Power Attack with Take the Blow.) The anti-flanking ability is cool, but doesn't seem that useful most of the time. And while the overreach ability is useful, if you're serious about tripping you can use the trip bonus from the +25% feats (as well as the ability to get Greater Trip and still have enough feats for several other options), and if not you don't have much chance of making the trip check anyway against many monsters.

    Also, I've thought more about Smite Evil, and concluded it doesn't really need that much boosting. When used on a charge with a lance and Spirited Charge (pretty much classic paladin), it can do 3X the paladin's level in damage, and not only doesn't cost attack bonus the way Power Attack does, but actually gives a minor boost. Add Divine Favor and a few well-chosen feats on top of that, and paladins are the best alpha strikers by far. (Well, except against low-AC enemies, where barbarians and fighters can use power attack to pull ahead.) Some is still needed because it can't be used on an entire attack sequence, but not as much as one might think.

    The real problem that paladins have is that feats like Shock Trooper allow non-paladins to compete with Smite Evil, and do it more often, but this fix assumes the absence of those feats.

    Perhaps you could include the Charging Smite ACF as a minor boost to the class? (Charging Smite: On a charge, but not while mounted, the paladin deals an extra 2 damage per paladin level with his Smite Evil attack, for a total of +3*level damage)

    The problem with Core-only games that most people have isn't the lack of power, it's the lack of customization. Alternate Class Features in particular really help to build your character any way you like.
  • 2011-12-06, 03:05 PM
    Yitzi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Perhaps you could include the Charging Smite ACF as a minor boost to the class? (Charging Smite: On a charge, but not while mounted, the paladin deals an extra 2 damage per paladin level with his Smite Evil attack, for a total of +3*level damage)

    Why should a paladin have an ability that only works when not mounted? I'm thinking more along the lines of giving him more uses, and then letting him combine a whole full attack's worth of them into a single FRA (but because it's only a single attack, it can be used from a charging mount) attack (the damage stacks, the attack bonuses don't.)

    Quote:

    The problem with Core-only games that most people have isn't the lack of power, it's the lack of customization. Alternate Class Features in particular really help to build your character any way you like.
    The problem is that coming up with large numbers of ACF's is not feasible, and getting them from splatbooks I don't own is out of the question. Creating "on-demand" custom classes/alternate features for flavor is a possibility, though, and I plan to use it in my game, but of course I won't be posting those before I get players.
  • 2011-12-06, 03:37 PM
    nonsi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    How so? For the cost of one feat, you get what amounts to a +2 bonus on all combat maneuvers you're focusing on, as well as a far more efficient Power Attack and Combat Expertise.

    I must admit that I lost you.
    Of the entire Weapon Focus tree, the one that grants +2 to all maneuvers is Melee Weapon Mastery - and this one was not on the list you mentioned... and it has Focus & Spec. as prereqs - making it 3 feats.
    That's about equivalent to what you'll get from Enlarge Person, only without the extra reach.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Perhaps you're misreading them. Their whole strength is that they improve not one option but a whole slew of them, allowing you to have numerous options from which to pick the best one (the essence of strategy).

    Are you sure you're talking about the Weapon Focus feats tree?
    I don't remember them granting new options.
    Can you elaborate?
  • 2011-12-06, 04:25 PM
    NeoSeraphi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Are you sure you're talking about the Weapon Focus feats tree?
    I don't remember them granting new options.
    Can you elaborate?

    He's talking about his new Weapon Focus feat tree, which is listed above. Here's the Weapon Focus feat:

    Weapon Focus

    Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray or touch attack, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
    Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
    Benefit: You gain a 25% increase to the numerical benefits gained from the following feats when used with the chosen weapon: Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Improved Sunder, Greater Sunder. You may choose to instead gain a +1 bonus on the attack roll with the selected weapon.
    If you are entitled to multiple percentage bonuses to the effects of a feat, add together all the percentages before applying the result to the effect of the feat and rounding down.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Why should a paladin have an ability that only works when not mounted? I'm thinking more along the lines of giving him more uses, and then letting him combine a whole full attack's worth of them into a single FRA (but because it's only a single attack, it can be used from a charging mount) attack (the damage stacks, the attack bonuses don't.)

    Because sometimes a player wants to play a paladin in a typical underground dungeon setting where a Large creature would just get in the way, where you need to walk over traps and tightropes and blah blah a horse isn't good.
  • 2011-12-06, 05:02 PM
    Yitzi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Because sometimes a player wants to play a paladin in a typical underground dungeon setting where a Large creature would just get in the way, where you need to walk over traps and tightropes and blah blah a horse isn't good.

    Point. Although that's a specialized enough issue that it can be dealt with by the DM in a particular case (perhaps by that exact ACF), it doesn't need to be included in a general fix.

    It also occurred to me...I probably should make Smite Evil usable with a ranged attack. Then in addition to charging, the new feats allow a paladin to become a nasty archer, since the archery equivalent to Power Attack involves criticals, and Smite Evil gives a constant bonus (which is multiplied by criticals). He still won't be as good an archer overall as a fighter (since he can't keep it up for a long period), but for a short burst of offensive power he could very well be better.
  • 2011-12-06, 05:19 PM
    NeoSeraphi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Point. Although that's a specialized enough issue that it can be dealt with by the DM in a particular case (perhaps by that exact ACF), it doesn't need to be included in a general fix.

    True. The real problem is the narrow focus of the class overall, which is why the SRD released three very nice Paladin alternatives, which give you a Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil, and Lawful evil variation of the paladin, so that you can still use it even if you don't want to be Lawful, or if you're playing in an evil game (or just fighting Good creatures more often than Evil creatures)

    I suggest you focus on that first, because the heavy alignment restriction/alignment focus of the class is the primary reason that a paladin is a poor choice for a player, along with the fact that it has so many dead levels after 6th.

    Also, Charging Smite was released as an ACF for the Special Mount class feature.
  • 2011-12-06, 05:24 PM
    Yitzi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    True. The real problem is the narrow focus of the class overall, which is why the SRD released three very nice Paladin alternatives, which give you a Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil, and Lawful evil variation of the paladin, so that you can still use it even if you don't want to be Lawful, or if you're playing in an evil game (or just fighting Good creatures more often than Evil creatures)

    I suggest you focus on that first, because the heavy alignment restriction/alignment focus of the class is the primary reason that a paladin is a poor choice for a player, along with the fact that it has so many dead levels after 6th.

    I see no reason to focus on it; the UA stuff is a perfectly good solution for when such is necessary, and perfectly compatible with everything I'm doing.

    Quote:

    Also, Charging Smite was released as an ACF for the Special Mount class feature.
    As I said; it can be dealt with by that exact ACF. (And to tell the truth, it's probably weak enough as such that I'd allow it in my game if someone asked for it.)
  • 2011-12-06, 05:27 PM
    NeoSeraphi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    I see no reason to focus on it; the UA stuff is a perfectly good solution for when such is necessary, and perfectly compatible with everything I'm doing.

    But the solution isn't available in a Core-only game. And that's what you're trying to fix, right?
  • 2011-12-06, 05:55 PM
    Yitzi
    Re: Fighter and paladin boost (includes new fighter feats) (3.5 Core, PEACH)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    But the solution isn't available in a Core-only game. And that's what you're trying to fix, right?

    No; I'm trying to fix the problems that (a) are problems in all or a substantial portion of games (as opposed to only those where someone wants to play a nonstandard character type), and (b) cannot be fixed with universally available resources without creating other problems.

    Fixing every problem of the "limited options" sort is, frankly, impossible. As long as all Core classes are playable but not overpowered, and the game doesn't put too much emphasis on one aspect (offense, defense, noncombat), the goal of this fix is accomplished. Fixing other things can be left for other fixes (and a fix that consists simply of including a variant that is available online really isn't even worth posting.)
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