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The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
This is more to settle an argument between some me and a mutual friend, who for some reason doesn't understand that this would be a complete blowout. Admittedly, he's a huge Halo fanboy, and I doubt he's delved even a little into the Warhammer material I've provided him, but seeing as I'm almost an equally huge WH40k fan (I have played all the Halo games, including the RTS), I want to make sure I'm not being totally unreasonable here.
Do the Covenant, the alien menace of the Halo Franchise, even stand a chance against the arrayed forces of the God Emperor of Mankind?
I think it's at least an interesting question given how many parallels can be drawn between Halo and WH40k (I think you can even make an argument that the Adeptus Astartes more or less inspired the Spartans, as much as any other games space marines). I maintain however that in any armed conflicts, the filthy xenos worshiping their alien gods do not stand a chance against the Imperium's finest.
Why?
Sheer overwhelming logistical strength on the part of the humans. It's true that the ungainly Imperium stretches thousands of worlds and faces so many threats that it's combined might cannot ever be brought to bear against a single foe, but assuming the Covenant ever launched a major campaign against an Imperial sector, they'd be facing down forces in a scale we've never seen in the Halo universe (even the books).
Again though, I want some opinions from the Halo supporters our there in the Playground. What are the largest feats of military might we've ever seen the Covenant launch (Reach is the greatest battle I can think of) and can they even hold a candle to the deeds of a single Space Marine Chapter?
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
The Imperium has over 10,000 years of experience in fighting every known alien threat....yeah. They're good at it. I mean, we can look at their most basic weapons. The Lasgun. It is a laser rifle that, with a single shot, can punch through armor, decimate modern armors, leave head-sized holes in concrete, and leave targets a particularly bloody and cauterized mess, all in one shot. Doing about the equivalent of a modern-day .50 cal rifle with almost no recoil, and as a medium-long range semi-automatic assault rifle.
And that's among the Imperium's weakest weapons, hell, the weakest gun in the setting, arguably, having earned the moniker "flashlight."
So what do the Covenant have? Essentially extremely scaled-down versions of Laspistols, with the only troops able to do anything of importance against a squad of Guardsmen being deployed as special forces or squad leaders. Effectively, we have 10 grunts, 1 elite, and maybe 2 or 3 jackals against a squad of Imperial Guardsmen armed with the equivalent of rapid-fire UNSC Sniper Rifles. Now whether or not Flak Armor is any better than UNSC Trooper armor is open to argument.
Now consider the fact that Guardsmen are considered expendable, and it is the tactic of Guard commanders to drown their opponents in bodies. Also consider the fact that the Guard has access to the best tanks in the setting.
Essentially, what the Covenant are up against are a rampaging tidal-wave of humans who are, individually, actually more potent than their opponents, and ABSOLUTELY HATE THE COVENANT'S GUTS backed up by vehicles and tanks the Covenant has no defense against. Bolters, AKA Automatic Rocket Launchers, are standard-issue mountings for the Omnissiah's vehicles. And that's only a secondary/sponson mounting.
Now this is for the ground war only, but I seriously doubt it'd be at all different in space, with ships that can fire shells that 40k novels have literally described as "apartment-building-sized."
TL;DR, yeah. TOTAL blowout. Honestly I think all the Imperium needs to wipe out the Covvies are a Battlefleet and a few Guard regiments. If the Astartes get involved, let's just say Khorne will be pleased.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
The Imperium from Warhammer 40k would win and probably not have to work to hard to do it. That is of course Chaos or the Tyranids, Orks or Necrons didn't eat the Convent first. :smalleek:
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Emperor Ing
Now consider the fact that Guardsmen are considered expendable, and it is the tactic of Guard commanders to drown their opponents in bodies. Also consider the fact that the Guard has access to the best tanks in the setting.
I think that's a point worth considering right there.
Everyone here has played Halo right? Remember how you are pretty much invincible every time you hop in a Scorpion? That's why the levels with them are so few and far between, because as long as you're in the tank, the only thing that's even remotely a threat to you is a Scarab.
Now consider that the Scorpion looks like the equivalent of those early WWI rolling canons compared to the Leman Russ, whole fleets of which can be deployed by even modest Imperial Guard Legions.
So, if Master Chief in a Scorpion can plow through entire Covenant battalions, I think it's pretty safe to say that a lone Baneblade could wade through a Covenant army like so much shallow water.
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Originally Posted by
Emperor Ing
TL;DR, yeah. TOTAL blowout. Honestly I think all the Imperium needs to wipe out the Covvies are a Battlefleet and a few Guard regiments. If the Astartes get involved, let's just say Khorne will be pleased.
If I'm crunching the numbers right, a couple of Imperial Guard regiments should work out to at least a 100,000 soldiers, and upwards of half a million if the planetary governors and sector commanders deem such numbers necessary. Complimented by a Battlefleet of between 50 and 75 capital and support ships . . . You know, I could be convinced that the Covenant could maybe take an Imperial Sector if they caught them unprepared or under-strength.
But as you said, it is at that point that the Adeptus Astartes will almost certainly be called in, and with them comes death on swift wings.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Covenant has Shields. And I mean all there troops have shields (as in Force Shields surrounding body), remember, Legendary is the true setting.
40K has armor, but not shields, so I think Covenant stands a chance.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Starbuck_II
Covenant has Shields. And I mean all there troops have shields (as in Force Shields surrounding body), remember, Legendary is the true setting.
40K has armor, but not shields, so I think Covenant stands a chance.
Those shields can be blown through or worn down by modern-equivalent weapons (slug-throwers and automatics) and are essentially wholly ignored by armor-piercing rounds (Sniper Rifles). The Imperium of Man doesn't use modern slugs. They use high-concentration lasers and bolters (miniature, fully automatic rocket launchers). Those aren't shields as far as the IoM is concerned. They're fashion statements.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Starbuck_II
Covenant has Shields. And I mean all there troops have shields (as in Force Shields surrounding body), remember, Legendary is the true setting.
40K has armor, but not shields, so I think Covenant stands a chance.
Ummm, only the Brutes and the Elites are equipped with shield generators, and even those are clearly vulnerable to standard solid slug munitions. The standard weapons of the Imperium are energy weapons (which are more effective against shields, as per the Halo universe), and miniature, full-auto, rocket propelled grenades. If a standard Halo caliber machine pistol or battle rifle can take down shields in a matter of seconds, I'm pretty sure the 40k weaponry should be able to do the same, if not better.
That's not counting the special or heavy weapons that Space Marines and Imperial Guard units have access too. The Halo Plasma rifle is the equivalent of an energy based uzi. The 40k Plasma rifle can melt through tank armor and vaporize individual soldiers.
Also, 40k Imperial troops do have access to shield technology. It's not generally considered battlefield portable, and is generally only used on ships, but Terminator armor has a built in void shield generator, and IG commanders have access to personal shield generators as well.
Edit:
I was wondering why we don't really seem to see shield generators mounted on vehicles in either Halo or 40k but then I realized that 40k at least does have ground based vehicles equipped with void shields: Titans.
The smallest Imperial Titans are the size of Scarabs, and while they're not generally found amongst IG Regiments or Astartes Chapters, you can bet any Imperial Sector worth its salt will have a few Titan Legions to throw at any xenos threat sufficient to warrant their intervention.
So you figure the Imperium should be able to throw together maybe a few dozen Titan class walkers at the Covenant. Warhound Titans are comparable to Scarab's in size, but they're considered the scout class of Titan, the standard troops of a Titan Legion being the Reaver and Warlord class Titans, which have no equal in size or scale or potential for destruction within the Halo Universe.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
ChaosLord29
. . . You know, I could be convinced that the Covenant could maybe take an Imperial Sector if they caught them unprepared or under-strength.
I really think that might be a stretch, unless they bring their entire force into it, this means High Charity and all their various armadas, and the stars must align in their favor. That means the Planetary Defense Force for all those worlds are totally useless (as they usually are,) Guard regiments are either off-system or underpowered, and there are no Spess Mahreen homeworlds in that sector. At best they MIGHT be able to take a subsector, but it wouldn't be long before, say, the Mordians or Catachans come in to curb-stomp some Elites.
Really the only vehicle of note that the Covenant have is the Scarab, but let's face it. It's only got one serious weapon, and against a moving target it's not that effective. Compare that to our favorite mac-mansion sized tank and it's 11 barrels of hell. Using a Warhound Titan against a scarab would be serious overkill, i'd say a Leman Russ or possibly even a Sentinel with a Lascannon and a bit of patience is all that's necessary to take those things down.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Emperor Ing
I really think that might be a stretch, unless they bring their entire force into it, this means High Charity and all their various armadas, and the stars must align in their favor. That means the Planetary Defense Force for all those worlds are totally useless (as they usually are,) Guard regiments are either off-system or underpowered, and there are no Spess Mahreen homeworlds in that sector. At best they MIGHT be able to take a subsector, but it wouldn't be long before, say, the Mordians or Catachans come in to curb-stomp some Elites.
For the sake of argument, let's assume we're dealing with two comparable forces at their best possible strength. So, that would be the entire Covenant Fleet assembled around High Charity invading an Imperial Sector with a dozen or so full strength IG Regiments, a few Battlefleets who have been tasked with the repulsion of the Xenos threat, and at least one Space Marine chapter with the majority of it's companies assembled. Oh, and of course an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos witih his retinue.
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Really the only vehicle of note that the Covenant have is the Scarab, but let's face it. It's only got one serious weapon, and against a moving target it's not that effective. Compare that to our favorite mac-mansion sized tank and it's 11 barrels of hell. Using a Warhound Titan against a scarab would be serious overkill, i'd say a Leman Russ or possibly even a Sentinel with a Lascannon and a bit of patience is all that's necessary to take those things down.
I'm willing to cut the Covenant a little slack where Scarab's are concerned. I played the Halo RTS and let me tell you a Scarab Walkers tear their way through UNSC vehicles like tissue paper. Considering that 40k is basically the Dark Ages with Super Science technology, I'm willing to say the Scarab could pose a serious threat even to most of standard Imperial vehicles.
Problem is, it's the only serious threat I can think of, and Scarabs are pretty rare. Focus fire from a trio of Leman Russ Battle Tanks would be more than enough to take it down I'm sure (that much faster if they've got Basilisk support, which they will). It's maybe a match for a lone Warhound Titan, but seeing as how they're employed in scouting pairs and supported by the larger titans . . . it doesn't look good.
The Covenant Ghosts and Banshees might do a lot to harass an IG regiment's flanks, but seeing as how they can be gunned down with concentrated small arms fire . . . Well, they're basically open topped vehicles with an armor value of 7 or 8 (lower than even the lightest vehicles in 40k).
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
ChaosLord29
I'm willing to cut the Covenant a little slack where Scarab's are concerned. I played the Halo RTS and let me tell you a Scarab Walkers tear their way through UNSC vehicles like tissue paper. Considering that 40k is basically the Dark Ages with Super Science technology, I'm willing to say the Scarab could pose a serious threat even to most of standard Imperial vehicles.
Problem is, it's the only serious threat I can think of, and Scarabs are pretty rare. Focus fire from a trio of Leman Russ Battle Tanks would be more than enough to take it down I'm sure (that much faster if they've got Basilisk support, which they will). It's maybe a match for a lone Warhound Titan, but seeing as how they're employed in scouting pairs and supported by the larger titans . . . it doesn't look good.
The Covenant Ghosts and Banshees might do a lot to harass an IG regiment's flanks, but seeing as how they can be gunned down with concentrated small arms fire . . . Well, they're basically open topped vehicles with an armor value of 7 or 8 (lower than even the lightest vehicles in 40k).
Concentrated Slug fire in Halo can kill a Banshee. A few shots from the Sniper Rifle, say...3, can outright destroy a banshee. I seriously don't think they'll be able to do much other than make extremely quick hit-and-run tactics. All the Guard would need to do is get a few solid Lasgun hits and BOOM! Instant dead banshees. The same can be said for ghosts, though they're in an even worse situation since they aren't airborne. I have far more confidence in Phantoms and Spirits being able to harass guard lines, of course this is assuming that there aren't any tanks, Heavy Weapons Teams, Sanctioned Psykers, or someone with a Bolter immediately available.
As for Scarabs, I can see its main gun being able to destroy a Leman Russ, but let's be honest: The projectile is slow-moving and easy to avoid, with a dissapointing lack of AOE to compensate. Guard and Tank commanders will eventually catch on to this, and learn to fire their tanks on the move. A Warhound Titan is redundant, all that's needed is concentrated Battle Cannon fire, Demolisher Cannon fire from a Baneblade, or a Basilisk/Manticore bombardment.
And I think you're forgetting the sheer over-the-top-edness of 40k. The Imperial Guard is NOT the UNSC forces. Each Guardsman is zealously devoted to the omnicide of all non-human sentient races, and equipped with weapons that put half of the UNSC arsenal to shame...and that's just standard issue. I have no doubt a single guardsmen could gun down an Elite without much difficulty (though the energy uzi might do some hurtin' too)
You are right in the OP when you said it's a blowout, but i'm not sure you truly appreciate how massive a blowout it would truly be. With the scenario provided, it's pretty easy how the battle goes. The IG holds the planet without much difficulty, the Marines send a single company, possibly a Terminator Boarding Squad in to destroy High Charity from within, and they succeed with the Covenant being powerless to stop them, and their fleet is decimated by a huge Imperial armada of ships that are built to deal with threats of far greater magnitude than the Covenant could ever hope to bring.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Emperor Ing
You are right in the OP when you said it's a blowout, but i'm not sure you truly appreciate how massive a blowout it would truly be. With the scenario provided, it's pretty easy how the battle goes. The IG holds the planet without much difficulty, the Marines send a single company, possibly a Terminator Boarding Squad in to destroy High Charity from within, and they succeed with the Covenant being powerless to stop them, and their fleet is decimated by a huge Imperial armada of ships that are built to deal with threats of far greater magnitude than the Covenant could ever hope to bring.
Yeah, I thought I'd play xeno's advocate here for a while and take up the conservative view, but at this point it's hard to argue the Covenant could take on a single planet, let alone face down the combined might of a single sub-sector brought to bare.
I don't give much for the odds of IG surviving, but they're so numerous and their weapons vastly outstrip those of even the Covenant themselves, it's difficult to think of the Covenant having much luck with an offensive. If Spartan IIs and IIIs are any indicator of how effective Space Marines would be, I think you're right. A single Chapter's Terminantor Company could more or less obliterate anything the Covenant threw at them, and seize or destroy any ship or craft they happened to teleport inside of an hour.
Factor in the the Covenant likely have no way to defend against the attacks of Sanctioned Psykers and Space Marine Librarians and they're really just completely outmatched in every category.
As a final testament to the sheer scale by which WH40k overwhelms the covenant, and to settle the matter of ship superiority once and for all, I post this comparison. A Covenant capital class ship is about the size of a small city and crewed by a few thousand Covenant. That's about the size of a small frigate or system defense ship in 40k terms. Imperial Capital Ships have crews upwards of half a million and are the size of small states. Any sector's battlefleet is comprised of at least a dozen or so of such craft, and their support ships.
Victor:
http://theshellcase.files.wordpress....cant-be-wr.jpg
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Lord_Gareth
Those shields can be blown through or worn down by modern-equivalent weapons (slug-throwers and automatics) and are essentially wholly ignored by armor-piercing rounds (Sniper Rifles). The Imperium of Man doesn't use modern slugs. They use high-concentration lasers and bolters (miniature, fully automatic rocket launchers). Those aren't shields as far as the IoM is concerned. They're fashion statements.
I've never played Halo, so forgive me if this stupid question. The shields seem pretty useless again slug throwers, but how do they hold up to energy weapon? Just as bad, better?
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
GeekGirl
I've never played Halo, so forgive me if this stupid question. The shields seem pretty useless again slug throwers, but how do they hold up to energy weapon? Just as bad, better?
Worse actually. Energy weapons are more effective at taking down shields and slug weapons are better at penetrating armor/health.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
What about the space battle? 40k infantry have bigger guns and more men, but their space side, if I remember right, is not great.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
shadow_archmagi
What about the space battle
Goes to the Imperium. Their ships are built to fend off or destroy threats of far greater magnitude than the Covenant. If you want something more concrete, consider that orbital bombardments have been described as ships dropping warheads the size of apartment buildings.
Now imagine that hitting a covvie ship.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
shadow_archmagi
What about the space battle? 40k infantry have bigger guns and more men, but their space side, if I remember right, is not great.
Well, that depends on how you really want to factor it. Compared to its contemporaries, the IoM does indeed somewhat lack in the space combat department, though this is only really if you compare them to the nimbleness of the Eldar or the unstoppable horror of the Necron tomb-ships. Compared to the Covenant's stated engagement ranges, though, they've got a massive and overwhelming advantage in terms of range and firing power, with maneuverability and FTL travel being roughly equal.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
shadow_archmagi
What about the space battle? 40k infantry have bigger guns and more men, but their space side, if I remember right, is not great.
Their space side is as absurdly over-the-top as their infantry forces. Sure, some of their ships load their cannons by chain-gang labor, but as mentioned above, the shells they're firing are the size of small apartment buildings. The mainstay Imperial Navy ship, the Lunar Cruiser, is 5 kilometers long, and their battleships are 8km. If Halo Nation is correct, the Covenant Assault Carrier, the second-largest ship in their fleet, is 5.3km long, only the 28km supercarriers are bigger.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
Their space side is as absurdly over-the-top as their infantry forces. Sure, some of their ships load their cannons by chain-gang labor, but as mentioned above, the shells they're firing are the size of small apartment buildings. The mainstay Imperial Navy ship, the Lunar Cruiser, is 5 kilometers long, and their battleships are 8km. If Halo Nation is correct, the Covenant Assault Carrier, the second-largest ship in their fleet, is 5.3km long, only the 28km supercarriers are bigger.
Always nice to see modposts even in an unofficial capacity :smallbiggrin:
And yeah, I mentioned it a little earlier, but where it comes to space combat, the Imperium has the Covenant beat in all categories but one: weight of numbers.
From what I've read, standard Covenant Naval groups consist of several dozen ships (capital, cruisers, and frigates), whereas the Battlefleet for any given Imperial subsector is generally going to number no more than a score of capital ships, cruisers and frigates. The Covenant fleet that took the Battle of Reach was 300+ ships, and while that was a substantial engagement, it's only reasonable to assume that this would be a conflict on a similar scale. That means even supplemented by non-ftl support and system defense craft, the Imperials are likely to be outnumbered 10 to 1.
All that said, Glyphstone's point still stands and then some. An Imperial Retribution class Battlecruiser is almost twice the size of the largest covenant ships, and moreover it boasts over 5 times the raw tonnage, and practically 10 times the firepower.
It's like comparing a P-51 Mustang to an A-10 Thunderbolt. The A-10 is only about twice as big, but it's in a completely different scale (and era) in terms of firepower and durability.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
ChaosLord29
the Imperials are likely to be outnumbered 10 to 1.
Then it is an even fight. All cruisers, fire at will. Burn their xenos hides!
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Lexicanum says a battlefleet is usually between 50 and 75 ships, up or down depending on the relative threat level. So it's only, at worst, a 6-1 margin without local support ships. Though I understand the Battle of Reach did have at least one Supercarrier there, so the largest Covenant ship in play will outclass the largest Imperial ship in play if they each get a full fleet to play with. The average Imperial ship size is far larger than the average Covenant ship size, though, even with a supercarrier dragging the median up - the Lunar cruiser's apparent opposite number is the 1.7km CCS Battlecruiser, and the smallest ship the Imperial Navy deploys are escort-class destroyers at 1.5km.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shadow_archmagi
What about the space battle? 40k infantry have bigger guns and more men, but their space side, if I remember right, is not great.
Really, the problem in Space is that the Covenant Ships are shown to be hurt by UNSC MAC Cannons. A Imperial Frigate will mount whole broadsides of cannons larger in size, if not quite the same projectile velocity, with armour-ignoring Lance** projectors prow mounted. And while they only have somewhat more than the 10-30 meters of armour plating that the UNSC ships mount, they also have at least a kilometer of hull to anything vital. And Void Shields, which autoblock nearly everything if they come in one shot (per one Void Shield projector) at a time. Cruisers, are bigger, more heavily armoured and be-weaponed. And Cruisers are the IoM's Ship-of-the-Line.
While the Covenant may manuever faster due to the Slipspace-short-jump capabilities, with it's obvious drawbacks ignored for a moment, it doesn't help them too much, as the Imperium outranges them by... Well, Imperial Standard Armament (Macrocannons, Laser Batteries, etc) Extreme Range is in the 70,000 - 100,000 km, with 30-60,000 km being optimal range. ...The Covenant engage, at most, around 10,000 km, with a few rare exceptions like the Sniper Flagship/Battlecruiser that shows up in The Fall of Reach that has a range of (approximated) 100,000 km. (1 in the 314 ship strong invasion force that they pointed at Reach, the assumed Human Homeworld. They have another 2000-3000 ships with High Charity, so they could have (going by that ratio) a whole... 10? More, if you assume they keep the better ships at home.)
Covenant Fighters might be superior to Imperial, but it's difficult to tell, as all they ever fight is Longswords, and go about even against them. :smallconfused:
And all the Reclaimers help them if there's an "outdated*" Nova Cannon on a cruiser. Fires rounds at >.75C, that implode hard enough to hurt Imperium-sized/armoured ships when they miss by a few hundred kilometers. There are a variety of Nova Cannons in fluff, as usual for 40K, some hilariously weaker than this, some hilariously stronger.
*Technically, it's still a marvel of engineering for the Imperium, they just consider it outdated in the Military Tactic sense, having moved Prow-Shooting > Horde of Fighters > Broadsides > ???, depending on Sector.
** Lances, while blocked by Imperium Void Shields, have the descriptor Ignores Armour. These buggers can lance straight through ships if they don't have Void Shields up.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
Lexicanum says a battlefleet is usually between 50 and 75 ships, up or down depending on the relative threat level. So it's only, at worst, a 6-1 margin without local support ships. Though I understand the Battle of Reach did have at least one Supercarrier there, so the largest Covenant ship in play will outclass the largest Imperial ship in play if they each get a full fleet to play with. The average Imperial ship size is far larger than the average Covenant ship size, though, even with a supercarrier dragging the median up - the Lunar cruiser's apparent opposite number is the 1.7km CCS Battlecruiser, and the smallest ship the Imperial Navy deploys are escort-class destroyers at 1.5km.
Thought for sure I had read a Battlefleet consisted of only a dozen ships or so. Maybe that was for individual systems, not subsectors.
Kinslayer brings up some good points too, and I think it'd be worth probing the issue of fighter craft a little more, or rather more pertinently, boarding craft.
As mentioned, the optimum Covenant engagement range is less than a quarter of that of IoM cruisers and capital ships, which means that any covenant craft which actually make it into firing range, are also well within the range of any smaller Imperial Craft to board either by teleportation or the various range of assault craft the Imperium has access to.
Once you've got Imperial boarding parties on Covenant craft (whether that's Cadian Shock Troopers or Space Marine Terminators) they are sure to carve a bloody swathe through the Covenant crew, as we've previously established that standard Covenant forces (grunts and jackals) just aren't going to be a match for battle hardened IG assault troops, let along the Emperor's chosen harbingers of destruction.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Another question to note: From what point in the timeline are we yoinking the covenant? In my personal opinion, we should probably go from early Halo 2, before Regret got sacked. It'd be the latest period during which they where a cohesive whole and had both Elites and Brutes in command positions.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Chess435
Another question to note: From what point in the timeline are we yoinking the covenant? In my personal opinion, we should probably go from early Halo 2, before Regret got sacked. It'd be the latest period during which they where a cohesive whole and had both Elites and Brutes in command positions.
I like to assume for debate purposes we're dealing with the Covenant at the height of their power, which I should think would be prior to the Fall of Reach. Also we're assuming the full strength of Covenant forces not just the expeditionary force which was primarily composed of Sangheii. So that's the combined might of the Covenant Empire, Brutes and Elites as they were never assembled during the Halo series.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
ChaosLord29
Kinslayer brings up some good points too, and I think it'd be worth probing the issue of fighter craft a little more, or rather more pertinently, boarding craft.
Well, the Covenant do have an advantage over almost every 40K faction against Boarding Pods, that being thier highly accurate Pulse Lasers that can pick off swathes of UNSC missles. On the other hand, no defence against the ill-loved Teleportarium. The only issue will be finding anyone willing to use it that doesn't begin and end with Adeptus Astartes. (And Inquisitors.)
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Kinslayer
Well, the Covenant do have an advantage over almost every 40K faction against Boarding Pods, that being thier highly accurate Pulse Lasers that can pick off swathes of UNSC missles. On the other hand, no defence against the ill-loved Teleportarium. The only issue will be finding anyone willing to use it that doesn't begin and end with Adeptus Astartes. (And Inquisitors.)
Is that an issue? I mean, we're sure to see at least some provisional Space Marines thrown at this thing, if not a Chapter's core companies. Master Chief and a contingent of marines all but walk onto a Covenant cruiser and proceeds to wade through the crew and security forces to rescue Cpt. Keyes in Halo I.
Granted, we're talking about the greatest hero of the war, but every Adeptus Astartes company commander is a veteran of hundreds of years of war and dozens of campaigns, having proved their worth and mettle a thousand times over. I don't know if it's much of stretch to say a Terminator Commander and his retinue could teleport onto High Charity itself and personally slay every last Covenant on board.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ChaosLord29
Is that an issue? I mean, we're sure to see at least some provisional Space Marines thrown at this thing, if not a Chapter's core companies. Master Chief and a contingent of marines all but walk onto a Covenant cruiser and proceeds to wade through the crew and security forces to rescue Cpt. Keyes in Halo I.
Granted, we're talking about the greatest hero of the war, but every Adeptus Astartes company commander is a veteran of hundreds of years of war and dozens of campaigns, having proved their worth and mettle a thousand times over. I don't know if it's much of stretch to say a Terminator Commander and his retinue could teleport onto High Charity itself and personally slay every last Covenant on board.
I'd give anything up to and possibly including a super-carrier to a a well-prepared Terminator squad, but High Charity itself is stretching things a bit. Mostly because the thousands of Ship Masters, Fleet Masters, Honor Guards, and even the High Council itself in a species where military rankings are based on combat prowess. Although I would like to see the chaos unfold if they popped right into a High Council meeting. :smallbiggrin: Obviously, the solution is to teleport in more than one squad. :smalltongue:
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chess435
I'd give anything up to and possibly including a super-carrier to a a well-prepared Terminator squad, but High Charity itself is stretching things a bit. Mostly because the thousands of Ship Masters, Fleet Masters, Honor Guards, and even the High Council itself in a species where military rankings are based on combat prowess. Although I would like to see the chaos unfold if they popped right into a High Council meeting. :smallbiggrin: Obviously, the solution is to teleport in more than one squad. :smalltongue:
Ah, yeah I see where you got confused. I used retinue not in the 'Commander + Squad' sense, but rather the Terminator Commander of the Chapter, and the assembled might of it's 2nd Company.
So that'd be, what? The Commander, a dozen or so terminator veterans, plus a few more squads of 'run-of-the-mill' nigh invulnerable, champions of raw zealous fury and hatred for all things alien, armed with tank crushing gauntlets, twin-linked auto-fire rpgs, plus an assortment of heavy weapons.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chess435
Although I would like to see the chaos unfold if they popped right into a High Council meeting. :smallbiggrin:
And the last sound that Truth ever heard was the whirr of the Assault Cannon winding up. :smalltongue:
@CL29 ; 1st Company is normally the Veteran/Terminator Company.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kinslayer
And the last sound that Truth ever heard was the whirr of the Assault Cannon winding up. :smalltongue:
@CL29 ; 1st Company is normally the Veteran/Terminator Company.
Have things changed since I built a Black Templar Drop Pod Assault force? Or maybe I'm remembering it wrong and I was basing my army off the 2nd Company . . . Oh well, thanks for the tip Kinslayer.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ChaosLord29
Have things changed since I built a Black Templar Drop Pod Assault force? Or maybe I'm remembering it wrong and I was basing my army off the 2nd Company . . . Oh well, thanks for the tip Kinslayer.
Hm. Well, Black Templar might be one of the exceptions to the First Company Has Terminators rule. Especially since they edge around the Codex Astartes as it is, already.
"1000 Space Marines per Chapter? Oh, sure. These guys are just... Power Armoured Scouts. Yeah. Also, the 1000 guys you saw over on the other end of the galaxy, these are the same bunch. D'you wanna argue with my sword about it?"
- After some research, it seems that it isn't mentioned if BTs use Terminator Armour any differently. It is possible, however, for other companies to borrow the Terminator plate, or to be assigned Terminator Marines for a mission.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kinslayer
Hm. Well, Black Templar might be one of the exceptions to the First Company Has Terminators rule. Especially since they edge around the Codex Astartes as it is, already.
"1000 Space Marines per Chapter? Oh, sure. These guys are just... Power Armoured Scouts. Yeah. Also, the 1000 guys you saw over on the other end of the galaxy, these are the same bunch. D'you wanna argue with my sword about it?"
- After some research, it seems that it isn't mentioned if BTs use Terminator Armour any differently. It is possible, however, for other companies to borrow the Terminator plate, or to be assigned Terminator Marines for a mission.
God how I would love to see the Emperor's Champion hacking a bloody swathe through a whole platoon of brutes, only to be confronted by a pair of hunters . . . who he proceeds to defeat in close quarters, single handed.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Emperor Ing
The Imperium has over 10,000 years of experience in fighting every known alien threat....yeah. They're good at it. I mean, we can look at their most basic weapons. The Lasgun. It is a laser rifle that, with a single shot, can punch through armor, decimate modern armors, leave head-sized holes in concrete, and leave targets a particularly bloody and cauterized mess, all in one shot. Doing about the equivalent of a modern-day .50 cal rifle with almost no recoil, and as a medium-long range semi-automatic assault rifle.
Yeah I've heard this before and I don't buy it.
I can point you off the top of my to Dark Heresy and (in at least one version) the 40k core rulebook which make a lasgun more to less equivalent to a modern assault rifle. Which also holds more or less with what I remember of them in the Gaunt's Ghosts and Caiphas Cain books. The latter hero of the Imperium at least once, probably more then once actually states a preference for being shot at by las weapons because they tend to cauterize their own wounds so you don't bleed to death.
The lasgun is the weapon of the Imperial Guard not for its performance but for its reliablity and easy logistics. As your typical guardmen can carry a few power packs and recharge them practically anywhere, thus logistically speaking has unlimited ammo. A true Gift from the Emperor to a universe where it any given shipment as only a moderate chance of arriving within the year of its need, if the request didn't just get loss in the bureaucracy and shows up a century later.
THAT SAID
Well if the IG at its broadest best is like a modern force minus integrated air support.... the UNSC is also essentially a modern force. Guns are still the order of the day, quite realistically since the tech has nowhere to go really. Armor is perhaps arguably better for the UNSC but then I remember unarmored NPCs being comparable to marines in Halo 1. At any rate while given nice coats of futurness most UNSC weapons have fairly clear IRL analogues.
And while the UNSC faced a broadly uphill and slowly degrading war against the Covenant we can also make a fair guess that the Covenant was a much larger power something the Imperium can correct for.
With this in mind and accounting for the nature of the weapon a lasgun is probably somewhere around a Covenant carbine or plasma rifle in business end performance. Your typical Guardmen is probably more then a match for a Grunt while being more numerous then Elites. From there it gets trickier, while I doubt the Covenant has a match for a Space Marine, they have simply more of all their more higher-end infantry.
Covenant vehicles though I think leave something be desired. Unless Scarabs are actually pretty common. Nothing on a Titan except by swarming them, but then Titans have are less frequent then Space Marines right?
Really all a numbers game. In theory the Imperium can win like it always can win, stripping its decaying corpse of flesh (manpower) to fling at a problem until the problem stops. And yet just as often though not as commonly talked about the Imperium bugs out and doesn't mobilize the whole damn galaxy against any particular threat.
Oh and the space end, but I don't really have much to go on there. I think the Covenant is said to have 'glassed' planets in the past so the weapons should arguably be on the proper tier. Which would make it another numbers game. On the other hand the Covenant is arguably more mobile in the FTL department since they so help me move about the galaxy on a days/weeks scale not months/years scale.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
Lexicanum says a battlefleet is usually between 50 and 75 ships, up or down depending on the relative threat level. So it's only, at worst, a 6-1 margin without local support ships. Though I understand the Battle of Reach did have at least one Supercarrier there, so the largest Covenant ship in play will outclass the largest Imperial ship in play if they each get a full fleet to play with. The average Imperial ship size is far larger than the average Covenant ship size, though, even with a supercarrier dragging the median up - the Lunar cruiser's apparent opposite number is the 1.7km CCS Battlecruiser, and the smallest ship the Imperial Navy deploys are escort-class destroyers at 1.5km.
Their ships have shields as well. That can repel Necron weapons. Just to keep in mind here.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Yeah I've heard this before and I don't buy it. ~
I avoid getting caught up in the Power Of The Lasgun debates, mostly because of the various sources being different. I personally believe that it's a better weapon than modern assault rifles, if only because there's no recoil in a Lasgun. (And the infinite Logisitics of Wonderfulness.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Your typical Guardmen is probably more then a match for a Grunt while being more numerous then Elites. From there it gets trickier, while I doubt the Covenant has a match for a Space Marine, they have simply more of all their more higher-end infantry.
I would argue that the Imperium Ground War has less requirement for Space Marines to fight the High-End Covenant than the UNSC needed the Spartans. Mostly because IG carry a lot of deadly Heavy Weapons with them as a matter of course. A pair of Hunters won't stand up long against support Lascannons, any better than they stand up against the much-rarer Spartan Laser.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Covenant vehicles though I think leave something be desired. Unless Scarabs are actually pretty common. Nothing on a Titan except by swarming them, but then Titans have are less frequent then Space Marines right?
Titans are rarer than Space Marines, but the IoM doesn't really need them in this case, as a Baneblade can probably solo Scarabs. An Armoured Company of Leman Russ can take out more than thier weight in Covvie' vechicles, and the Antivechicle weapons that the Guardsmen cart around are good enough to kill everything smaller than the Scarabs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Really all a numbers game. In theory the Imperium can win like it always can win, stripping its decaying corpse of flesh (manpower) to fling at a problem until the problem stops. And yet just as often though not as commonly talked about the Imperium bugs out and doesn't mobilize the whole damn galaxy against any particular threat.
Yeah, it really depends on if you remove one of the Imperium's current foes and replace them with the Versus Race, or just stick yet another enemy into the endless lineup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Oh and the space end, but I don't really have much to go on there. I think the Covenant is said to have 'glassed' planets in the past so the weapons should arguably be on the proper tier. Which would make it another numbers game. On the other hand the Covenant is arguably more mobile in the FTL department since they so help me move about the galaxy on a days/weeks scale not months/years scale.
It takes them a while to glass a planet... Might just have more to do with not having a wide enough AoE, though. Doesn't really matter when they don't have range to engage properly.
Also, I think they're moving around a piece of the galaxy, not the entire thing. I've never looked into that part of the Halo Universe, to be honest. Will investigate.
-- Ah, so they are moving around the entire galaxy, at a rate of... 912 Lightyears Travelled Per 24 hours, according to one wiki. Which is... Yeah. 20 times faster than the Imperium's standard estimates allow.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Pretty sure Cain is saying that, if given a wound of similar size or in a vital area, the la's gun is better due to the cauterizing nature of the weapon. It is still a mission kill, but with proper treatment you can survive.
Covenant FTL is likely superior, as it would seem to be about as fast if I am remembering things correctly, but it lacks daemons eating your face, as well as being much more tactically flexible, being able to go at least into planetary orbits, if not into the atmosphere itself.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Considering the damage a single Spartan can do to the Covenant, I would like to see a mid-to-high level Rogue Trader crew go up against them for a while.
Edit: Also, in the RPGs while the SP weapons SEEM equivalent to our modern world guns, they're not really as most of them do use caseless ammunition, I think we can assume that things just operate on a different scale.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
I can point you off the top of my to Dark Heresy and (in at least one version) the 40k core rulebook which make a lasgun more to less equivalent to a modern assault rifle. Which also holds more or less with what I remember of them in the Gaunt's Ghosts and Caiphas Cain books. The latter hero of the Imperium at least once, probably more then once actually states a preference for being shot at by las weapons because they tend to cauterize their own wounds so you don't bleed to death.
The lasgun is the weapon of the Imperial Guard not for its performance but for its reliablity and easy logistics. As your typical guardmen can carry a few power packs and recharge them practically anywhere, thus logistically speaking has unlimited ammo. A true Gift from the Emperor to a universe where it any given shipment as only a moderate chance of arriving within the year of its need, if the request didn't just get loss in the bureaucracy and shows up a century later.
Well if the IG at its broadest best is like a modern force minus integrated air support.... the UNSC is also essentially a modern force. Guns are still the order of the day, quite realistically since the tech has nowhere to go really. Armor is perhaps arguably better for the UNSC but then I remember unarmored NPCs being comparable to marines in Halo 1. At any rate while given nice coats of futurness most UNSC weapons have fairly clear IRL analogues.
And while the UNSC faced a broadly uphill and slowly degrading war against the Covenant we can also make a fair guess that the Covenant was a much larger power something the Imperium can correct for.
With this in mind and accounting for the nature of the weapon a lasgun is probably somewhere around a Covenant carbine or plasma rifle in business end performance. Your typical Guardmen is probably more then a match for a Grunt while being more numerous then Elites. From there it gets trickier, while I doubt the Covenant has a match for a Space Marine, they have simply more of all their more higher-end infantry.
I'm inclined to agree more your estimation of the standard Lasgun. I think the Beam Carbine is probably the best analogue, with the exception that we know Lasrifles can be fired at full automatic speeds and have a standardized clip size of 30.
All in all, I'd say it's a little bit of an edge over anything you see in the Halo games and given the numbers of the IG makes them more of a match for anything the Covenant can throw at them in terms of ranged combat.
Part of this I believe is a function of Warhammer being a mass combat game system and Halo an FPS. You're not going to find anything in Halo that truly approximates what it's like for platoons of men to be trading automatic rifle fire behind cover, because it's an FPS. Grunts are designed to be killed in droves, Jackals are meant to harass players, and the Elites are meant to be the real challenge to be dealt with. The Covenant military structure is laughable in terms of long ranged mass squad based tactics, but perfect for providing a lone supersoldier with an interesting challenge.
Quote:
THAT SAID
Covenant vehicles though I think leave something be desired. Unless Scarabs are actually pretty common. Nothing on a Titan except by swarming them, but then Titans have are less frequent then Space Marines right?
Herein lies the rub. Covenant vehicular support is laughably underpowered compared to the armored fist which is most Imperial Guard Regiments. I mean the standard covenant vehicles are nothing but light, open topped, skimmers with twin linked plasma rifles (Halo Plasma Rifles, not 40k plasma rifles). They're vulnerable to small arms fire from even standard assault rifles and sub machine guns, so I think it's safe to say that concentrated lasfire could bring them down, and the vast array of Imperial heavy weapons would annihilate any Banshees, Ghosts, Choppers or Prowlers they choose to commit to any sortie.
Wraiths, Locusts, Specters and the like wouldn't fair much better I'd wager. Given that these two can be fairly easily brought down with grenades or just punching them (if your a Spartan), I doubt their armor is anything comparable to a Landraider or a Leman Russ, which I think puts them firmly in the Medium Vehicle Category of 40k terms and thus still very much soft targets for Krack Missiles, Melta Weapons, and Lascannons.
As for the Scarab, they're pretty few and far between if Halo 3 and Halo Wars are any indication. A covenant task force really only ever seem to deploy them in pairs, maybe 3 or 4 tops, which is about half as many Titans as you'd find in a standard sized Legion. True, Titans aren't very common, but if the Imperials see vehicles like Scarabs, you can bet they're going to request aid from the Sectors Adeptus Titanicus Legions (yes plural) which means you're likely to see at least a dozen heavy Titans in the largest engagements of any conflict.
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Really all a numbers game. In theory the Imperium can win like it always can win, stripping its decaying corpse of flesh (manpower) to fling at a problem until the problem stops. And yet just as often though not as commonly talked about the Imperium bugs out and doesn't mobilize the whole damn galaxy against any particular threat.
As for it being a numbers game, I would say the higher end Covenant Infantry really aren't a match for the Adeptus Astartes unless they have overwhelming numbers. I mean, if the Spartans are any indicator, that's exactly how it shakes down. I think it's pretty well indicated that a squad of Spartans is at least worth a squad of elites, and since Elites are deployed in squads composed entirely of Sangheii, it generally works out that the Spartans get to wade through a full platoon of grunts, Jackals and a dozen or so Elites before a concentrated effort is made by the Brutes, Elites, Hunters, etc. to take them down.
While their armor may be more advanced (especially if they all have shield generators) the Spartan IIs and IIIs are really only the equivalent of Space Marine Scouts, in terms of combat ability, size, strength, genetic enhancements, weaponry, combat experience and all around grit. The biggest advantage the Covenant enjoy over the Spartans is their superior numbers and technology, but the Adeptus Astartes are in a league above and beyond the Spartans. They are the Emperor's Angels, and monsters by any other name. Give them armor which can stand up to their own weapons (Nothing short of a 40k Plasma Rifle will ignore Space Marine Power Armor) and I don't think the Covenant are going to have much that can truly pose a threat to them.
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Oh and the space end, but I don't really have much to go on there. I think the Covenant is said to have 'glassed' planets in the past so the weapons should arguably be on the proper tier. Which would make it another numbers game. On the other hand the Covenant is arguably more mobile in the FTL department since they so help me move about the galaxy on a days/weeks scale not months/years scale.
The big point in space combat is again scale. Covenant ships are in a different class of tonnage than 40k spacecraft. Combine that with the fact that Covenant ships engagement range is about 10,000 km, and 40k is 45,000km, and you've got the makings of a real massacre.
Now the FTL bit is interesting though. As I understand it, Covenant (and UNSC) slipspace technology is pretty much the same, except the Covenant are better at it. Essentially, the ship enters a subspace dimension which cuts both travel distance and relative time in order to arrive at a destination. Now, this is more or less exactly how 40k ships travel as well, except when they enter the subspace dimension (that is, The Warp) they must contend with roiling eddies, storms, and horrific eldritch daemons and forces of sheer madness. Now, I like to think that if the Covenant ever invaded the Imperium in the 41st Millenium, they'd have to contend with all the same maladies, and would be woefully ill prepared for them. Vice Versa, if the Imperium were defending in Halo Universe, the simplicity and safety of Warp travel would be a blessed relief.
Why do I purport this you ask? Simple, because the Warp is Slipspace, and Slipspace is the Warp. It's just that in Halo timeline, humanity and other alien races have not sufficiently developed so as to give rise to the forces of Chaos as they are known in the 41st Millenium. Imagine a single cohesive timeline, in which the events of Halo predate the events of WH40k by 38,000 years. Is it so hard to imagine that Spartans the ancient ancestors of the Adeptus Astartes? That use of Covenant and Forerunner technology is what sparks what the IoM will refer to as the Golden Age of Mankind? The advent of which will cause humanity to blossom and all the woes and vices to grow with it, causing them to manifest as personified deities in their own right?!?
Sorry, getting a little off track at the end there. :smallredface:
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kinslayer
I avoid getting caught up in the Power Of The Lasgun debates, mostly because of the various sources being different. I personally believe that it's a better weapon than modern assault rifles, if only because there's no recoil in a Lasgun. (And the infinite Logisitics of Wonderfulness.)
I once pinned a guy down for a text quote and the best offered was a description of concrete being "boiled" by heavy las fire. However I called and still called hyperbole on that, you fire a normal bullet into concrete and its going to leave marks and so forth. I'm going with the more coherent version, personally.
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I would argue that the Imperium Ground War has less requirement for Space Marines to fight the High-End Covenant than the UNSC needed the Spartans. Mostly because IG carry a lot of deadly Heavy Weapons with them as a matter of course. A pair of Hunters won't stand up long against support Lascannons, any better than they stand up against the much-rarer Spartan Laser.
Quite possibly and I don't think the Imperium have a choice anyways, there just aren't going to be enough to go around.
Though on those heavy weapons. Well I the most common are various bolters which are easily the most overrated 40k weapon. Yes its large caliber and it explodes, it doesn't however act like a grenade or rocket so that puts a definite ceiling on its power.
Lascannon though should punch right through. Eveything else should be too rare, and melta's are short range anyways.
Both for the IG though are static, the Covenant isn't above a certain tactical acumen so I'd totally see say sending a Hunter or two out to flank the position with Fuel Rod Canons. Or say an Elite with active-camo and sword.
If this was purely infantry then I'd say for a reasonable parity of force Covenant should win there. (Given well the Reasonable Marine's joke this can even apply to the 1000 or so Spess Mehruns around)
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Titans are rarer than Space Marines, but the IoM doesn't really need them in this case, as a Baneblade can probably solo Scarabs. An Armoured Company of Leman Russ can take out more than thier weight in Covvie' vechicles, and the Antivechicle weapons that the Guardsmen cart around are good enough to kill everything smaller than the Scarabs.
Baneblades aren't exactly common either, but I think I loosely agree here on the overall assessment. Outside Scarbs you go all the way down to the Wraith which seem more a glorified fireworks van. It can tank rockets sure, but its offense is terrible for that. I can make a Banshee or Ghost dance a fine jig and kill about anything, but I don't presume that to be normal performance either.
I always figure the Covenant must have sabotaged Scorpion production or something. Or some strong special interest boondoggled the project or something. Or like the Halo 1 pistol game and "reality" just don't match up.
Either way yeah I do consider Imperium tanks a pretty decent showing (given how rare air support is in 40k) and well, they seem to actually have them in numbers.
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It takes them a while to glass a planet... Might just have more to do with not having a wide enough AoE, though. Doesn't really matter when they don't have range to engage properly.
There isn't really range in space, just how accurately it get portrayed. Arbitrary silliness can be arbitrary though. :smalltongue:
And taking awhile is actually establishing some parity. Doing it slowly suggests the longer sort of massive orbital strikes taking out a planet at the nuke scale. Which matches with what I've seen of lance battery strikes from Imperium ships when not breaking out the big Exterminatus weapons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WitchSlayer
Edit: Also, in the RPGs while the SP weapons SEEM equivalent to our modern world guns, they're not really as most of them do use caseless ammunition, I think we can assume that things just operate on a different scale.
Here's the thing, projectile weapons have essentially nowhere to go as technology. They are trapped by Newton, you can't get more powerful and not make recoil too massive for a human. So anything propelling slugs has certain limits. I'd not be suprised if the AK-47 was in use a couple hundred years from now in much the fashion it is to day: common, rugged, and all the gun you really need.
Sure one can do things that play around with the formula, but not all that much. Guns seemed to have reached a point of diminishing returns, sure one might be more accurate but even a less accurate rifle is still good enough for the non-sharpshooter. For what you mentioned Caseless ammo assault rifles already exist. If they are somehow cheap/reliable enough in 40k to be stand will be the only meaningful difference in my book.
The great secret of 40k is that its really isn't super advanced at all. Certainly not enough to justify the distressingly common attitude that everything must be so much epically more powerful and advanced because its the year 40k.
Yes with specific exceptions, all of which tend towards being irreplaceable relics of a bygone age that were thankfully Raganrok proof. Simply remembered by rote or prayed out of an STC at best. And probably for every plasma rifle you probably have 10 billion citizens that don't enjoy developed world standards of living and have never even seen one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ChaosLord29
All in all, I'd say it's a little bit of an edge over anything you see in the Halo games and given the numbers of the IG makes them more of a match for anything the Covenant can throw at them in terms of ranged combat.
In FPS multiplayer sure, but in open battle I think these differences sorta disappear. At least compared to terrain and tactics.
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As for it being a numbers game, I would say the higher end Covenant Infantry really aren't a match for the Adeptus Astartes unless they have overwhelming numbers.
I don't want to get too deep into Spartan versus Astartes but they have a similar strategic weakness, there just aren't enough of them. Or we shouldn't really expect more then like a thousand or so spread across the entire campaign.
And its worth remembering for every feat of badass by a Space Marine there's some ignoble defeat where they did go down. Might require some special tactics but the Covenant does have weapons that should crack power armor.
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The big point in space combat is again scale. Covenant ships are in a different class of tonnage than 40k spacecraft. Combine that with the fact that Covenant ships engagement range is about 10,000 km, and 40k is 45,000km, and you've got the makings of a real massacre.
Tonnage is irrelevant, it means nothing other then how compressed your tech is.
And if your ranges are on the money I remain a touch unimpressed unless there's a reason either can't go at longer or shorter ranges. Its space unless something stops it or there's a special reason why not then your weapon range is unlimited. Unless you go all Honor Harrington and point out lightspeed delay its all pretty short range stuff relatively speaking. Between that once you reach orbital bombardment capable I tend to assume some level of parity.
Also whatever the Imperium's numbers seems the Covenant has serious ship amounts to consider. One of the EU space battles list a human Admiral pulling a pure Star Trek solution and using a bunch of nukes to make a gas giant go nova to destroy 300 Covenant ships... and this is the war where humanity steadily lost with no hope in sight so it didn't make even make a dent.
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Now, this is more or less exactly how 40k ships travel as well, except when they enter the subspace dimension (that is, The Warp) they must contend with roiling eddies, storms, and horrific eldritch daemons and forces of sheer madness. Now, I like to think that if the Covenant ever invaded the Imperium in the 41st Millenium, they'd have to contend with all the same maladies, and would be woefully ill prepared for them. Vice Versa, if the Imperium were defending in Halo Universe, the simplicity and safety of Warp travel would be a blessed relief.
This is not general practice for these sort of threads.
Also. The answer is that if they had to enter the Warp without proper tech every Covenant ship would die, or worse -not-, since only particular shields render the Warp as unsafe as it is. That's just plain unfair, beside different realms would demand completely new navigation methodology.
Also being the psychic reflection of everything the Warp is quite different. Hyperspaces do tend to be pretty distinct ideas on the whole.
It much simpler to have two unrelated dimensions for different tech. And its broadly assumed in these threads factions can move around about as well as they can natively, often the idea being they suddenly are sharing a single galaxy.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Yeah I've heard this before and I don't buy it.
I don't want to bash 40k (I like it!), but what I generally don't buy is the "10,000 years of fighting experience and cumulative military knowledge, that makes them masters in tactical combat"... when the typical WH40K battle's tactic, recalls a random WWI scenario.
I know it's cooler, but, to me, it's hard to buy.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Yeah, 40K Vanilla Space Marines do not have 10,000 years combat experience. The oldest one of them still in active service, I believe, is Dante, at about 1,100 years. You could, supposedly, make a case for Bjorn the Fell Handed, but he's a Dreadnought who only rarely actually gets to fight, and has spent much of the intervening time asleep.
You could also make an argument for some Chaos Marines, but time gets funny in the Eye of Terror, so there's no guarantee they've had 10,000 years.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Killer Angel
I don't want to bash 40k (I like it!), but what I generally don't buy is the "10,000 years of fighting experience and cumulative military knowledge, that makes them masters in tactical combat"... when the typical WH40K battle's tactic, recalls a random WWI scenario.
I know it's cooler, but, to me, it's hard to buy.
The mere fact that the Reasonable Marines chapter "exists" kinda gives the lie to any great tactical acumen for the Imperium as a whole and Space Marines in particular.
And if you need ten thousand years to fight you clearly aren't doing something right.
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Originally Posted by
The_Final_Stand
Yeah, 40K Vanilla Space Marines do not have 10,000 years combat experience. The oldest one of them still in active service, I believe, is Dante, at about 1,100 years. You could, supposedly, make a case for Bjorn the Fell Handed, but he's a Dreadnought who only rarely actually gets to fight, and has spent much of the intervening time asleep.
You could also make an argument for some Chaos Marines, but time gets funny in the Eye of Terror, so there's no guarantee they've had 10,000 years.
Well Failbbadon has 10,000 years of failed Black Crusades under his belt but he's not exactly vanilla even for Chaos
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
So. I'm not going to get caught up in the lasgun power debate, but it's roughly the same as a Carbine, maybe a little better, certainly better in having full auto and no ammo requirements.
Carbine < Lasgun
So then, if I recall my Halo days correctly, the Carbine is among the better weapons of the Covenant- Even amongst Elites, the majority of them will carry Halo Plasma Rifles, which are pretty crummy weapons, as I recall.
So basic infantry vs basic infantry, the guardsmen are way, way better armed?
I can see myself blitzing through Halo 2 even on Legendary if I had a Carbine that fired like an SMG and never needed to reload.
Vehicle-wise, does the covenant have anything that can really beat Sentinels, the 40k analogue to Ghosts? Sentinels are fast-moving lightly armored bipedal mecha (Similar in design to AT-STs in starwars, but smaller and less prone to falling over) that can equip a wide variety of powerful weapons.
A wraith's main cannon might be able to destroy one, but a good Sentinel pilot should be able to destroy the wraith and then just walk away from the oncoming wad of energy that moves very slowly in a ridiculous arc. I don't see the covenant being able to argue with what amounts to Ghosts with Spartan Lasers.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Though on those heavy weapons. Well I the most common are various bolters which are easily the most overrated 40k weapon. Yes its large caliber and it explodes, it doesn't however act like a grenade or rocket so that puts a definite ceiling on its power.
Really, the most common Heavy they cart around would be the Autocannon. Which is enough to shatter all of the Covenant Light-to-Medium, and going by the Warhog Chaingun, enough to break a Wraith from the sides or behind.
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Lascannon though should punch right through. Eveything else should be too rare, and melta's are short range anyways.
Lascannons are what the IG will really be resting on in this campaign to fight Scarabs. Even if they aren't 100% effective, the Lascannon has a chance at hurting the heaviest 40k plating, and while it might not go through the armour of the Scarab, the Scarab does have... Well, crab legs, that they can cut off.
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Both for the IG though are static, the Covenant isn't above a certain tactical acumen so I'd totally see say sending a Hunter or two out to flank the position with Fuel Rod Canons. Or say an Elite with active-camo and sword.
They are static, but also behind the front lines of Guardsmen, and as long as it isn't Orks that they're fighting, the IG seem willing to move, setup, fire, and then move again when nessecary. Or just get some guardsmen to sacrifice thier lives and go hose the Hunters down with grenades and flamers until they stop moving. And Elites... Well, thier Camo is Optical Only, which means the Auspex should pick them up. It's not Standard Issue to every Guardsman, but it's not exactly uncommon, either.
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
I don't want to get too deep into Spartan versus Astartes but they have a similar strategic weakness, there just aren't enough of them. Or we shouldn't really expect more then like a thousand or so spread across the entire campaign.
Probably less, depending on which Sector the Covenant crash into. On the other hand, they might run face-first into somewhere near the Eye of Terror where there's 3000+ Space Marines hanging out, so eh. 1000 Space Marines is still more Spartans (IIs) than they ever had on the battlefield. (75) And Space Marines come with thier own heavy support, rather than jacking the IG's. Land Raider v. Scarab, I'm thinking the LR wins. (Land Raiders are rare as well, I just wanted to make the comparison in advance)
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
And if your ranges are on the money I remain a touch unimpressed unless there's a reason either can't go at longer or shorter ranges. Its space unless something stops it or there's a special reason why not then your weapon range is unlimited. Unless you go all Honor Harrington and point out lightspeed delay its all pretty short range stuff relatively speaking. Between that once you reach orbital bombardment capable I tend to assume some level of parity.
The Covenant try to engage at <10,000 km, because that's near the maximum range that they can control thier plasma... torpedoes?... manually.
40k, the ranges indicate how far out the Imperial Admirals believe thier weapons will be accurate to.
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Also whatever the Imperium's numbers seems the Covenant has serious ship amounts to consider. One of the EU space battles list a human Admiral pulling a pure Star Trek solution and using a bunch of nukes to make a gas giant go nova to destroy 300 Covenant ships... and this is the war where humanity steadily lost with no hope in sight so it didn't make even make a dent.
Eh. Either we have to free the Imperium from the other dozen alien/Chaos factions that it's bogged down under, or have the Covenant attacked by them as well. IoM, Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and Chaos all have Attack On Sight activated, Eldar/Dark Eldar are Attack As Planned... Tau are the only talkers, but they're surrounded by Tyranids and Space Marine worlds right now. (Including the penultimate in Xeno-hating, Black Templars)
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Well Failbbadon has 10,000 years of failed Black Crusades under his belt but he's not exactly vanilla even for Chaos
Every time this meme comes up, I feel obligated to point out that 'Failbaddon' technically has a 50%+ win record in terms of the objectives he was actually aiming for in each respective crusade. "Utterly Crush The Imperium In the Name Of Chaos" was only the primary goal of the first and maybe second Crusades, the rest it was just treated as a bonus objective.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Imperium has got this. The guard alone are more then a match for the Covenant as they have insane numbers and weaponry that's a little bit superior to the standard weapons of the Covenant. For anti-tank the krack missiles will be pretty devastating against the Covenant vehicles except for the Scarab which they might be able to whittle down. The Imperial tanks will be devastating as the Covenant has almost no counter to them. Finally the Guard do have air-support in the Valkyries and Vendettas. The Vendettas are devastating tank hunters while the Valkyries are more in between. Both are capable of carrying a squad of specialists to either air drop in or land and manually off-load. They aren't exactly rare either so we would almost certainly show up.
The space battle is pretty much one-sided as well. Contrary to what Soras claims the size of the ship is a factor as it means that a hit will be less likely to hit something important in a larger ship. The shielding and armor on Imperial ships are very strong and the weapons are more powerful then anything the Covenant has faced before.
Space Marines are just death for the Covenant. I would put a single Space Marine Sargent on the level of Master Chief who pretty much defeated the Covenant by himself. A single terminator squad could wipe out whatever ship it boarded easily.
So yeah, unless the Covenant hits only unimportant planets they are utterly doomed.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
I once pinned a guy down for a text quote and the best offered was a description of concrete being "boiled" by heavy las fire. However I called and still called hyperbole on that, you fire a normal bullet into concrete and its going to leave marks and so forth. I'm going with the more coherent version, personally.
So we're agreed then, the Lasgun is basically just a Beam Carbine with an expanded magazine capacity.
@shadow_archmagi
Afraid the Lasgun doesn't have unlimited ammo, it's just that the clips can be recharged using batteries, outlets, solar power, or even by throwing them into the heart of a fire. They provide logistically unlimited ammo, not practically unlimited.
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Quite possibly and I don't think the Imperium have a choice anyways, there just aren't going to be enough to go around.
Though on those heavy weapons. Well I the most common are various bolters which are easily the most overrated 40k weapon. Yes its large caliber and it explodes, it doesn't however act like a grenade or rocket so that puts a definite ceiling on its power.
Lascannon though should punch right through. Eveything else should be too rare, and melta's are short range anyways.
Both for the IG though are static, the Covenant isn't above a certain tactical acumen so I'd totally see say sending a Hunter or two out to flank the position with Fuel Rod Canons. Or say an Elite with active-camo and sword.
To your quips regarding bolters being overrated, they are indeed explosive, but they are also rocket propelled. The blasting cap on the rear of the casing of the 'bolt' ignites a miniature rocket which is what accelerates the explosive round out of the barrel and maintains it's flight through the air. They don't lose force the further they travel, until the rocket is expended, and when they impact with something, it's why they keep going rather than simply expending their kinetic energy. That's why 'bolts' have such raw kinetic force, penetrating power, and let's not forget, they explode once they are inside you :smallbiggrin:
Heavy and special weapons are not at all uncommon (even Lascannons and Plasma Canons) even amongst the IG (assuming they come from a somewhat 'civilized' subsector). There's a reason when you build an army there's no limit to the number of Lascannons you can field in your army, as opposed to any other heavy weapon. If you want every single heavy weapon carried by every guard support squad or vehicle to be a Lascannon, you can do that (even if it's a little tactically unsound). Suppose you've got a good mix of Las and Auto-cannons, then just about any IG force is going to be well prepared to shred both Covenant Infantry
and Vehicles in no time flat.
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Baneblades aren't exactly common either, but I think I loosely agree here on the overall assessment. Outside Scarbs you go all the way down to the Wraith which seem more a glorified fireworks van. It can tank rockets sure, but its offense is terrible for that. I can make a Banshee or Ghost dance a fine jig and kill about anything, but I don't presume that to be normal performance either.
I always figure the Covenant must have sabotaged Scorpion production or something. Or some strong special interest boondoggled the project or something. Or like the Halo 1 pistol game and "reality" just don't match up.
Either way yeah I do consider Imperium tanks a pretty decent showing (given how rare air support is in 40k) and well, they seem to actually have them in numbers.
Air support is rare in actual gameplay, but in the books, video games, and other sources it's pretty well documented that any IG or Space Marine force is going to have tactical air support as well (there's even an official minigame released by White Dwarf on conducting air battles). There's rules for flyers for almost every race, it's just that people don't generally use them (rarely legal in tournament play) because they're expensive and the whole point of the game is you are commanding the ground forces.
Not that the Halo flyers are particuarly impressive either. Banshees remind me more of WWI Biplanes than any sort of impressive aerial combat craft, and Hornets definitely leave something lacking where speed is concerned. They seem like the anologue of 40k Skimmers (which admittedly, only Space Marines have access to), but a couple of Thunderhawk Gunships and Landspeeders should be more than a match for any force of Banshees and Covvie aircraft.
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There isn't really range in space, just how accurately it get portrayed. Arbitrary silliness can be arbitrary though. :smalltongue:
And taking awhile is actually establishing some parity. Doing it slowly suggests the longer sort of massive orbital strikes taking out a planet at the nuke scale. Which matches with what I've seen of lance battery strikes from Imperium ships when not breaking out the big Exterminatus weapons.
But there is range in spaced based on how well you can create a containment field for your Plasma Projectiles or a confinement beam for your other particle projection based weaponry. Otherwise they'll just disperse into space after a set amount of time.
Imperial Lance weaponry have overcome that range limitation by sheer size (it takes longer for the lance 'bolt' to disperse given the raw amount of energy), and their broadsides fire like old fashioned cannons so the only range limit is how well they are aimed from the start.
Covenant ships are used to a smaller engagement range because they are smaller ships. Maybe if they built ships or had the technology to enhance the range of their energy based weapons they would build them bigger.
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Here's the thing, projectile weapons have essentially nowhere to go as technology. They are trapped by Newton, you can't get more powerful and not make recoil too massive for a human. So anything propelling slugs has certain limits. I'd not be suprised if the AK-47 was in use a couple hundred years from now in much the fashion it is to day: common, rugged, and all the gun you really need.
Sure one can do things that play around with the formula, but not all that much. Guns seemed to have reached a point of diminishing returns, sure one might be more accurate but even a less accurate rifle is still good enough for the non-sharpshooter. For what you mentioned
Caseless ammo assault rifles already exist. If they are somehow cheap/reliable enough in 40k to be stand will be the only meaningful difference in my book.
The great secret of 40k is that its really isn't super advanced at all. Certainly not enough to justify the distressingly common attitude that everything must be so much epically more powerful and advanced because its the year 40k.
Yes with specific exceptions, all of which tend towards being irreplaceable relics of a bygone age that were thankfully Raganrok proof. Simply remembered by rote or prayed out of an STC at best. And probably for every plasma rifle you probably have 10 billion citizens that don't enjoy developed world standards of living and have never even seen one.
It's no great secret lol. Hell, the Orks pretty much do use primarily WWII era technology (to great effect, I might add. The only real technological heavyweights are the Tau and the Eldar (and depending on how you look at it, the Necrons), but the point isn't that IoM weaponry is more advanced simply by virtue of it being from the future, it's more advanced because it has to deal with greater threats and allows more in the way of acceptable losses.
As it's mentioned, Lasguns have a greatly reduced recoil because they are directed energy weapons, and never run out of ammo. 40k does provide rules for slugthrowers in their games and they're basically the same, but with a slightly lessened armor penetrative power. Bolters are the real heavyweight future weapons, and they are primarily wielded by not humans (as you pointed out, human arms and bodies can only withstand so much recoil). If anything, the problem the UNSC is dealing with is that their chemical propellant slug weapons have reached a point of diminishing returns, which is why the Covenant trounce them so readily throughout much of the war.
The Imperium of Man has been combating threats from empires larger, more technologically advanced, and downright more bloody minded than the Covenant for thousands of years, and in many cases has done more than just hold it's own. I'll agree that 40k isn't terribly more advanced (certainly not what you would imagine given 38,000 years of technological development) but in terms of using what technology they have available to them, they put both the UNSC and the Covenant to shame.
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I don't want to get too deep into Spartan versus Astartes but they have a similar strategic weakness, there just aren't enough of them. Or we shouldn't really expect more then like a thousand or so spread across the entire campaign.
And its worth remembering for every feat of badass by a Space Marine there's some ignoble defeat where they did go down. Might require some special tactics but the Covenant does have weapons that should crack power armor.
Astartes are 8ft tall giants with three hearts, two sets of lungs, and a dozen other crazy ass genetic modifications that make them lethal killing machines. They have left humanity behind and are now monsters loyal only to the Emperor. Spartans seem to have crossed into the uncanny valley a bit (and the unbreakable bones are cool) but I don't think it's fair to say they are in the same league as the Astartes.
On the note of power armor though, let's try and put this into some mechanics. Covenant weaponry more or less burns it's way through standard UNSC body armor, and Spartan Armor offers a degree more protection (without shields that is). I think it's safe to say that Imperial Flak armor isn't much better, but the Spartan Armor looks more like Carapace armor and provides marginally more protection, so I think that's a good analogue. Space Marine Power Armor is a cut above all that. If we're using the Beam Carbine as our Analogue of the Lasgun and assume they have similar armor piercing power, then Power Armor will deflect, absorb or shake off 2 in 3 shot from it (In Warhammer terms a 3+ Armor Save). Assuming it has similar 'punch' and lethality, a Space Marine, by sheer hardy constitution should again be able to shake off 2 in 3 shots (A strength 3 weapon vs toughness 4 Space Marines), so all in all you're looking at overall effectiveness of about 1 in 10. We are talking about Elites here, so lets assume they make pretty good marksman and will be hitting the Astartes 2 in 3 times (Ballistic Skill 4) so that gives us an overall effectiveness of about 7 in 100 shots killing space marines.
There's a reason that Lasguns are referred to in genre as 'flashlights'.
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Tonnage is irrelevant, it means nothing other then how compressed your tech is.
And if your ranges are on the money I remain a touch unimpressed unless there's a reason either can't go at longer or shorter ranges. Its space unless something stops it or there's a special reason why not then your weapon range is unlimited. Unless you go all Honor Harrington and point out lightspeed delay its all pretty short range stuff relatively speaking. Between that once you reach orbital bombardment capable I tend to assume some level of parity.
Also whatever the Imperium's numbers seems the Covenant has serious ship amounts to consider. One of the EU space battles list a human Admiral pulling a pure Star Trek solution and using a bunch of nukes to make a gas giant go nova to destroy 300 Covenant ships... and this is the war where humanity steadily lost with no hope in sight so it didn't make even make a dent.
I was using Tonnage in the the old fashioned Man-o-War sense (seems appropriate since that's how Imperial ships more or less operate). So it's relevant in that any given Imperial ship boasts 5-10 times the amount of fire power than any Covenant ship of comparable class (not size, since as we established, standard Imperial Ships are as large as the largest Covvie craft).
As I pointed out above, range limits do apply to directed energy weapons, since they have a tendency to disperse in space without sufficient confinement beams or fields to contain them. The Covenant use Plasma weapons to their range limits are likely based on the range at which their magnetic confinement beams or fields can keep the plasma in a coherent mass capable of causing damage. Their missiles seem to possess a similar limitation based on guidance, but that could only be because that's the engagement range that they are used to. Whatever the science fiction behind it, the point is that Covenant ships, in genre have an effective engagement range of about a quarter of that of Imperial ships.
For perspective, that's like trying to get decent sized outboard boat into firing range of small caliber pistols against a modern day Cruiser or Destroyer. The weight in firepower matches up pretty well too.
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This is not general practice for these sort of threads.
Also. The answer is that if they had to enter the Warp without proper tech every Covenant ship would die, or worse -not-, since only particular shields render the Warp as unsafe as it is. That's just plain unfair, beside different realms would demand completely new navigation methodology.
Also being the psychic reflection of everything the Warp is quite different. Hyperspaces do tend to be pretty distinct ideas on the whole.
It much simpler to have two unrelated dimensions for different tech. And its broadly assumed in these threads factions can move around about as well as they can natively, often the idea being they suddenly are sharing a single galaxy.
Yeah I know XD
It's kind of fun to think about, and as the guy who started the thread I thought I'd indulge a little bit.
What about psykers though? Are the Covenant in any way prepared for the psychic assault of a Librarian or an Inquisitorial Sanctioned Psyker? Given that they're a brand new and pretty significant xenos threat you can bet their will be a cadre from the Ordo Xenos on the scene with all due haste and that they'll have some psykers with them. Imagine if the Prophets quasi religious control over Covenant forces could be overturned by psykers who display real spiritual power. Might spark the Sangheii to rebel all over again.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
I think you might be underestimating the covenant a bit there, they'll still die, but I think they could put up a good fight. Sure, the blue elites are idiotic, underequipped and will die in droves to the guard, but that comes with the territory of being religious nuts and rookies. However, I think that the red ones are probably on the level of a marine scout, and the zealots might give a terminator a run for his money. Not to mention that needler and needle rifle fire would be devastating to the marines as they have no energy sheilds. Finally, a brute pack is probably on the level of a bunch of ork nobz (with worse equipment) and the chieftains are beasts, so they would murder the guard. It's easy to forget that the protagonists in the halo games are extraordinary. The Chief is by far the best spartan, and is canonically almost supernaturally lucky, and Noble 6 is a more subtle version of him. The ODSTs in general are good, and those in the game are pretty much the best of the bunch.
So I think that while the covenant would get demolished in large scale combat it could do pretty well in skirmishes.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
ChaosLord29
Astartes are 8ft tall giants with three hearts, two sets of lungs, and a dozen other crazy ass genetic modifications that make them lethal killing machines. They have left humanity behind and are now monsters loyal only to the Emperor. Spartans seem to have crossed into the uncanny valley a bit (and the unbreakable bones are cool) but I don't think it's fair to say they are in the same league as the Astartes.
True.
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Originally Posted by
ChaosLord29
On the note of power armor though, let's try and put this into some mechanics...
This is going about it the wrong way ; you're using the Tabletop idea to try and justify the reality of thier armour.
In the 40k Literature, a Space Marine can stand up in a fusillade of full auto lasfire, get hit by frag grenades, and torched with a flamer, and thier armour will still be in one piece. The only time ordinary rifle-weapons (Ie; machineguns, lasguns, etc) are a threat is when the Astartes are silly enough to take off thier helmet, or there's a hell of a lot of it, and it eventually manages to hit the joints enough to remove a limb. And even then they'll probably keep trying to fight through the handicap.
Covvie Plasma Rifles, Pistols and Carbines are effectively non-threats, as Space Marines do take cover, and thier armour is good enough so that they can move from cover-to-cover even if hit between. Fuel Rod Guns are the real threat, and if a Covvie somehow manages to get a Needler full of spikes into a joint, as they'll likely skip off anything else. Sort of like firing them at Hunters.
...Acutally, yeah. Space Marines are more fully armoured, more manueverable, faster, stronger, overall deadlier Hunters, in effect. Maybe not harder to kill, because Hunters never technically die from the more conventional weapons, but they are harder to incapacitate.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
thorgrim29
I think you might be underestimating the covenant a bit there, they'll still die, but I think they could put up a good fight. Sure, the blue elites are idiotic, underequipped and will die in droves to the guard, but that comes with the territory of being religious nuts and rookies. However, I think that the red ones are probably on the level of a marine scout, and the zealots might give a terminator a run for his money. Not to mention that needler and needle rifle fire would be devastating to the marines as they have no energy sheilds. Finally, a brute pack is probably on the level of a bunch of ork nobz (with worse equipment) and the chieftains are beasts, so they would murder the guard. It's easy to forget that the protagonists in the halo games are extraordinary. The Chief is by far the best spartan, and is canonically almost supernaturally lucky, and Noble 6 is a more subtle version of him. The ODSTs in general are good, and those in the game are pretty much the best of the bunch.
So I think that while the covenant would get demolished in large scale combat it could do pretty well in skirmishes.
Honestly I don't think you give the blue Elites enough credit and you give the Zealots a little too much. Blue Elites are just that, Elite. While they'd fall to concentrated las fire, they generally aren't deployed in squads, but as the leaders of Grunt and Jackal platoons and battalions. It's more or less like having a Space Marine or two with every IG Unit, and the effect would be that they'd help score some kills on the guardsman until their underlings were cut down.
I'd say Master Chief is more the equivalent of a Space Marine Special Character, though I don't think he's the equal of Marneus Calgar, more like The Emperors Champion or Captain Tycho (from the Blood Angels). That said, pretty much every chapter has a handful of these Master Chief level heroes running around, so I think it's fair to say that once the Adeptus Astartes intervene, the fight is over for the Covenant. If Master Chief is The Demon, just imagine how they might react facing down nearly a 500 or more such figures, better armed and better armored.
Which dovetails nicely into the point about Needlers. I don't think there's any reason to presume they'd be at all effective against power armored troops. I mean, they're still shrugged off by standard cover, so if the Space Marine is covered head to toe in inches thick plate armor, I think they'll be fine.
I think your best point though are the Brutes. Any brute pack is going to be at least the equivalent of a rowdy mob of orks and an assortment of nobz, which do pose a threat even to the Astartes in large numbers (and Brutes do seem more numerous than Elites even without the civil war). Still though, under armed and under armored, I can't believe there would be enough of them to truly threaten the Astartes, only challenge them.
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Originally Posted by
Kinslayer
...Acutally, yeah. Space Marines are more fully armoured, more manueverable, faster, stronger, overall deadlier Hunters, in effect. Maybe not harder to kill, because Hunters never technically die from the more conventional weapons, but they are harder to incapacitate.
I think that's a pretty fair comparison too, actually. A Hunter standing at full height is 12 feet tall, but hunched and covering themselves as you see in the game they are only 8 feet, the same height as a Space Marine. Admittedly they're bulkier, but just let that sink in in terms of how truly badass the Adeptus Astartes are.
Literally the only thing comparable to them in size and scale are the most rare and powerful members of the Covenant Military. They dwarf Brutes and Elites and are equipped head to toe in armor not even scratched by conventional Covenant or UNSC weaponry. They're faster, more numerous, and carry automatic weapons capable of downing most Covenant Vehicles under sustained fire.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Just a note on the lasgun thing- The closest thing we have to a definitive source (The back of the 6th edition Rulebook contains an in universe guide on field dressing las wounds), the lasgun is cited as blasting off arms and fully penetrating humans (granted, I suspect this is more probable when dealing with a civilian insurrection than proper flak armor). One note on the fatality of lasgun wounds; Specifically, if the lasgun only glances you, or misses all the vital organs, you've got pretty good odds of survival compared to a bullet because there's no risk of bleeding to death. If it hits a vital organ, the book points out the swelling to said organ is likely to cause death (This being 40k, the book helpfully instructs you to dress the wound as fast as possible for morale purposes, instead of the more labored, thorough process recommended for those with survivable wounds.)
@ChaosLord: I wouldn't compare an elite directing troops to a space marine doing the same. For one I'm not sure about the combat differences, and secondly, you're underestimating the morale effects fighting alongside marines has for guardsmen- The appearance of marines in a battle, at least for soldiers who haven't worked along side them for an extended period of time, is pretty close to divine intervention- They aren't called the angels of death just because they kill things really well. On Master Chief... I'd say he might be around the level of a company champion, maybe a decorated but not exceptional captain. I'd say more like the effect a commissar has on a squad.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Brutes are a pretty good comparison to orks perhaps, yeah. Thing is, whilst they are more numerous than Elites, they're not really more numerous than the Orks and the Imperial Guard are quite capable of taking Orks on.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Yeah, remember, Orks outnumber guardsmen in most engagements, and they still lose many of those.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
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Originally Posted by
Tiki Snakes
Brutes are a pretty good comparison to orks perhaps, yeah. Thing is, whilst they are more numerous than Elites, they're not really more numerous than the Orks and the Imperial Guard are quite capable of taking Orks on.
Well, an Ork infestation is a pretty serious threat, and generally requires a concerted effort by more than just planetary defense forces (Other Regiments or Space Marines have to be called in).
The point remains though, that this is primarily due to their numbers, and Brutes are not nearly so numerous as the greenskins. The other aspect of the Ork threat being that they're so damned hard to exterminate, and if you even leave a small number alive they can repopulate with such speed and plenty as to put to shame even the most prolific of rabbit populations.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Example of the stress Power Armor can go through is found in The Traitor's Hand, one of the Cain books. In it, a squad of lasguns firing at the armor appears to do little more than chip the paint: one suit is only destroyed when Jurgen uses a meltagun(anti-tank weaponry) on it at essentially point blank range. Another suit is destroyed by multiple antivehicular weapons and tanks all blasting it at once, though this is noted as being overkill.
Quite possibly a better example is the rush at the end, where five World Eaters go through several defensive lines located inside a water based ship. It's noted that the positions have heavy weapons such as bolters, and are manned by fanatics. Yet, despite these excellent conditions for defense, the World Eaters tear through them with only one casualty, who was only wounded by a Krak grenade (he is killed when Cain stabs his chainsword into the hole created by the grenade).
Also, Guardsmen tactics aren't exactly a known figure: there is at least one book where the guardsmen are shocked to discover a PDF using what are obviously WW1 tactics(well, the bad kind). And there are others where the human wave approach is used.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
I still say that even without Lasguns being superior- Even just by virtue of having Carbines as standard equipment for its troops, the IG is hugely ahead.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ChaosLord29
To your quips regarding bolters being overrated, they are indeed explosive, but they are also rocket propelled. The blasting cap on the rear of the casing of the 'bolt' ignites a miniature rocket which is what accelerates the explosive round out of the barrel and maintains it's flight through the air. They don't lose force the further they travel, until the rocket is expended, and when they impact with something, it's why they keep going rather than simply expending their kinetic energy. That's why 'bolts' have such raw kinetic force, penetrating power, and let's not forget, they explode once they are inside you :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, Covenants have Needlers.
They ignore armor: only shields block them. Without that protection you kaboom.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tavar
Example of the stress Power Armor can go through is found in The Traitor's Hand, one of the Cain books. In it, a squad of lasguns firing at the armor appears to do little more than chip the paint: one suit is only destroyed when Jurgen uses a meltagun(anti-tank weaponry) on it at essentially point blank range. Another suit is destroyed by multiple antivehicular weapons and tanks all blasting it at once, though this is noted as being overkill.
Quite possibly a better example is the rush at the end, where five World Eaters go through several defensive lines located inside a water based ship. It's noted that the positions have heavy weapons such as bolters, and are manned by fanatics. Yet, despite these excellent conditions for defense, the World Eaters tear through them with only one casualty, who was only wounded by a Krak grenade (he is killed when Cain stabs his chainsword into the hole created by the grenade).
Also, Guardsmen tactics aren't exactly a known figure: there is at least one book where the guardsmen are shocked to discover a PDF using what are obviously WW1 tactics(well, the bad kind). And there are others where the human wave approach is used.
I agree on both counts. In Storm of Iron and Lord of Night, the lasfire is illustrated to do little more than scratch Power Armor, and even concentrated shotgun fire from a platoon of troops is only effective when it manages to hit a joint. Only artillery fire or the bolters of other Space Marines demonstrate a general effectiveness against either heretic or loyalist Space Marines.
As for Imperial Guard tactics, it's unfair to assume they are the equivalent of WWI commanders ordering their troops over the top to be mowed down by incoming fire. They are more or less organized like a modern military, with the exception that they have a much greater tolerance and threshold for what are considered 'acceptable losses'. I think the most apt comparison would be the Wehrmacht during the Second World War, who had some of the best soldiers in the war, but were constrained administratively by a totalitarian regime (which also tolerated greater losses in the field).
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Starbuck_II
Yeah, Covenants have Needlers.
They ignore armor: only shields block them. Without that protection you kaboom.
IF you get hit by a whole clip at once, otherwise it's pretty safe to ignore, really.
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Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)
Are the properties of the needler ever explained? I always felt like the "If you land six shots it's an instakill, if less it's no damage" thing was always more a gameplay mechanism.