Erfworld 62 - Page 56

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Originally Posted by slb

"when in contact" mean "in the same hex", that's how all TBS games work and I expect Erfworld too.
So the B dwagons have no reason to attack the central hex unless ordered to move there.

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They can have actions programmed. Stanley sent a stack of dwagons that was out in the field to capture Jillian and then come back. There's some level of control. These dwagons know what they are required to do next turn.

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Originally Posted by OnDroid

Hmm ... right (that might explain the explored hexes shape in Fog of war). But still it's either pretty confident or risky move for Anson to stay in the middle hex. (cause he probably doesn't have enough move to escape back ... by Vinny's comment)

Oh well ... we shall see soon enogh. :smallcool:

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I've been thinking about this apparent paradox and I think that I have a solution. In that third-to-last panel, Ansom switches from "our forest units will" to "we'll". Then, Vinny responds with "our move". I think that it's just the forest units that will be stuck and sacrificed. The dwagon wheel is close to the column and Ansom is on a flying carpet; my guess is that he's personally planning to go back and rejoin the column after he wins, safer than ever with Stanley's warlords re-croaked.

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Originally Posted by Flakey

*Laughs* I missed that, and thank you. This leads me to my gamming paronoia though. Admitedly its the back hex, but you have a hex thats the weakest of the 6 populated by 3 of the weakest dwagons. I would be asking why?

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Because being further out, it will only be attacked by enemies with enough move. It makes perfect sense to have a stronger force where the attack will be stronger and weaker where we expect it weaker.

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Originally Posted by TheTurnipKing

Donut of Doom - now available in Wounded Dwagon, Uncroaked Warlord and quantum probability flavoured fillings!

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sweet & pure, indifferent quantum state! of course the Donut of Doom is empty and filled at the same time, until we get to lookat what is inside :biggrin:
I so do love applied quantum physics

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Originally Posted by slb

"when in contact" mean "in the same hex", that's how all TBS games work and I expect Erfworld too.
So the B dwagons have no reason to attack the central hex unless ordered to move there.

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I guess that is why the bat could fly around the 'fort' but could not retreat when it came into a hex with 3 dwagons. (like Parsons warlords could retreat after destroying the siege)
On a side note, this would mean that Vinnie can only see through his bats but they do not count as lead by a warlord.

back to speculation:

Ansom expects the 'hex-fort' aka 'Donut-of-Doom' to be filled. We assume that Parson is an ueber-geek tactical genius. Hence I like to speculate that the hex is empty because that's what Ansom is not expecting!

IF the hex is filled and it is a trap, stacks lead by a warlord (Jillian and/or Ansom) can retreat. So I do not see that much benefit in a filled hex.

What I think Parson is getting for almost no cost is:

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options

• he (Parson) can selectively engage exposed warlords on his own turn
• he can leave the forest capable units stranded in the middle of nowhere and by doing so he wins one additional turn of undisturbed hit'n'run on a weakened column (stranded units must get back to the column first)
• he can try to capture the arkenpliers
• he destroys Ansom's (and Vinnies) reputation as capable war leaders
• shows the alliance soldiers/leaders that many of them can and will die (which may cause some to leave)

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Originally Posted by Scientivore

I've been thinking about this apparent paradox and I think that I have a solution. In that third-to-last panel, Ansom switches from "our forest units will" to "we'll". Then, Vinny responds with "our move". I think that it's just the forest units that will be stuck and sacrificed. The dwagon wheel is close to the column and Ansom is on a flying carpet; my guess is that he's personally planning to go back and rejoin the column after he wins, safer than ever with Stanley's warlords re-croaked.

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That's way too subtle of a language switch. I think you might be blowing the switch out of proportion. I as a military officer have switched between the terms "we" and a specific sub-unit's name for an operation unconciously without ever noticing that change or planning on sending my unit along with the other sub-unit. Because I think of the group of units as one team and "we" are trying to win the battle/war.

Ansom would be a fool to expose himself on a gamble like this. I don't consider him foolish with the gamble he's planning, as many of you have said he's basing his plan on what the Tool has done before and what the Tool would probably do. Also, I don't know why anyone thinks he will give the Arkenpliers, that too would be foolish. He loves Jillian and values her impressive fighting prowess, but giving up a one of the Arkentools????? Especially with her track recors for getting captured. Also, it's not Jillian's style to use some normal sized weapon.

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Originally Posted by Bobbryan

I've read through what some people were thinking... but I didn't necessarily agree.

If the center hex was merely being used to lure Ansom's units into the middle, Parson would have to sacrifice 3 dwagons. Now... this is obviously an acceptable loss, but really... it doesn't seem like Parson's strategy. Why lose 3 dwagons when you could lose zero?

My first impulse when I read this comic was this:

The center hex IS empty, because all 30ish unaccounted dwagons are all in the hex that appears as if it has 3 dwagons. Assuming that Vinny's bats would only account dwagons that actually launched an attack (and the warlords could direct battles if they were present) then it would appear as the weakest link, when in reality, it has the whole crew of healthy dwagons waiting in ambush.

Of course this would rely on just how scouting works in Erfworld. If Vinny gets full data... and whether you can hide units from bats. But if the warlords directed 3 dwagons to attack the bat, it would appear to Vinny as simply 3 dwagons attacking the bat because they had no choice.

Just my thought. A bit different than others.

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But obviously scouting don't work that why and that is why, if scouts can only see units that attack them, why not put all the dwagons in a single stack and make the warlords stop them from attack making them undetectable? Simple, because scouting don't work that way.

I agree with Monan. I doubt that Ansom is planning to be in the middle of the Donut of Doom at the end of his turn. He's bringing a force capable of defeating a score (20) wounded dwagons and three uncroaked warlords. There's no indication that he feels that they would be able to follow that up with defeating even more dwagons on the very next turn with no chance to heal up.

I think the trap is more intended to distract Ansom away from the real threat and waste his turn than it is to put him in the middle of the donut.

I have a question and since I can't find the answer in my review of all the comics, I might as well put it here.

Does Parson know how potentially vulnerable his uncroaked Warlords are?

I think it's safe to assume that Stanley doesn't know a lot about the Arkenpliers. I'm betting that he knows they're very powerful and that they aren't yet attuned to Ansom. He probably doesn't know that they can turn the Uncroaked to dust in an instant. After all, he doesn't know a lot about his Arkenhammer and he's attuned to it.

So if Stanley doesn't know much about the Arkenpliers, how would Parson know?

This could be a considerable hole in Parson's planning. If his warlords can be destroyed easier than he thinks, then parts of his plan will simply fall apart, as they rely on Warlords being able to use their Warlordy abilities to target units for attack and keep units out of attacks.

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Originally Posted by JazzManJim

Does Parson know how potentially vulnerable his uncroaked Warlords are?

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Given how many of Stanley's uncroaked units Ansom's probably done in with them, I'd say it's a fair bet that Stanley knows. But Stanley wasn't involved with the planning. Whether PARSON knows... I'd guess not

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Originally Posted by jindra34

Yes Vinnie is vampiric but that does not mean he is a vampire. And erf vampires already have some differences from fictional ones so why should we assume they are undead? how many times must i repeat this argument before people get it?

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The coffin nails it for me.

what if the back 3 dwagons aren't the weakest? if i was parson, i'd move 3 fully-healed dwagons back there, thus tricking the enemy into believing they were the weakest because of their position. then a sneak attack comes to finish off the few remaining hitpoints and...BAM! fully-powered dwagons come out and destroy them.

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Originally Posted by Killer595

what if the back 3 dwagons aren't the weakest? if i was parson, i'd move 3 fully-healed dwagons back there, thus tricking the enemy into believing they were the weakest because of their position. then a sneak attack comes to finish off the few remaining hitpoints and...BAM! fully-powered dwagons come out and destroy them.

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I don't believe that Ansom is referring to them as weak because they are wounded, but because yellow, pink and purple dwagons are the weaker versions of dwagons. It's mostly assumed that all the dwagons in the ring surrounding the Schrodinger's hex are at full health.

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Originally Posted by gatitcz

Doesn't prove much. Jillians's directing the ORLYs in the battle. She needs time to solo the blue. Eventually, though, it seems she would have to fight all the dragons. She didn't selectively choose not to engage them, she just organized the engagement.. She wasn't able to fly away or hide without fighting.

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No one suggested that she could hide or retreat. You need to look at it in context. This was mentioned to show that Ansom could selectively target the Warlords to attack with his Arkenpliers, even if he was on the defense.

The hypothetical situation was one where Ansom breaks into the center of the formation, finds nothing, and the next turn Stanley's forces come down upon him. The statement was made that Ansom couldn't selectively target the Warlords since it wasn't his turn, but the fight between Jillian and the Dwagons shows that commanders can command on the defense. No one has made the argument that Commanders on the defense can choose not to engage units, just that they can choose which of their units attacks what.

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Originally Posted by shakes019

I don't believe that Ansom is referring to them as weak because they are wounded, but because yellow, pink and purple dwagons are the weaker versions of dwagons.

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And, also because the lower quantity means not only fewer units, but a lower stacking bonus.

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Originally Posted by Krelon

sweet & pure, indifferent quantum state! of course the Donut of Doom is empty and filled at the same time, until we get to lookat what is inside :biggrin:
I so do love applied quantum physics



I guess that is why the bat could fly around the 'fort' but could not retreat when it came into a hex with 3 dwagons. (like Parsons warlords could retreat after destroying the siege)
On a side note, this would mean that Vinnie can only see through his bats but they do not count as lead by a warlord.

back to speculation:

Ansom expects the 'hex-fort' aka 'Donut-of-Doom' to be filled. We assume that Parson is an ueber-geek tactical genius. Hence I like to speculate that the hex is empty because that's what Ansom is not expecting!

IF the hex is filled and it is a trap, stacks lead by a warlord (Jillian and/or Ansom) can retreat. So I do not see that much benefit in a filled hex.

What I think Parson is getting for almost no cost is:

Spoiler

Show

options

• he (Parson) can selectively engage exposed warlords on his own turn
• he can leave the forest capable units stranded in the middle of nowhere and by doing so he wins one additional turn of undisturbed hit'n'run on a weakened column (stranded units must get back to the column first)
• he can try to capture the arkenpliers
• he destroys Ansom's (and Vinnies) reputation as capable war leaders
• shows the alliance soldiers/leaders that many of them can and will die (which may cause some to leave)

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Hmm quantum physics ... What do you think Shroedinger's cat stats are? :smallbiggrin: But probably time of saturday will collapse the Donut's centre wave function and come up with the macroscopic solution.

Btw and we are expecting it to be empty, because Parson CHANGED his plan of logical distribution of the dragons and adapted the "I 'm an invulnerable strategy genius"-type of fort. The very fact that he knows, that scouting is limited by distance, they have no Eyemancers and strange coincidence that both Anson and Jillian can reach the centre hex while he could sacriface few attacks to be on the safe side of their move is IMHO enough reasons to belive it. Also the interupted "We send the dwagons at the column, right? But -" is another good reason to belive the hex is empty. (and also : If not empty then the comics is at the end :smallcool: Learn from the TV series. :smallbiggrin: )

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Originally Posted by OnDroid

Hmm quantum physics ... What do you think Shroedinger's cat stats are? :smallbiggrin: But probably time of saturday will collapse the Donut's centre wave function and come up with the macroscopic solution.

Btw and we are expecting it to be empty, because Parson CHANGED his plan of logical distribution of the dragons and adapted the "I 'm an invulnerable strategy genius"-type of fort. The very fact that he knows, that scouting is limited by distance, they have no Eyemancers and strange coincidence that both Anson and Jillian can reach the centre hex while he could sacriface few attacks to be on the safe side of their move is IMHO enough reasons to belive it. Also the interupted "We send the dwagons at the column, right? But -" is another good reason to belive the hex is empty. (and also : If not empty then the comics is at the end :smallcool: Learn from the TV series. :smallbiggrin: )

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Counting up the dwagons suggests that that back hex should NOT be weak. Which means Parson has done it for a reason. If he'd left it at the front of the column, that would be suspicious, plus it's actually tactically more useful at the back requiring the forest units to put in more legwork to hit it.

The fact that the center hex is covered by fog of war seems significant too - he wouldn't have known that would happen if Wanda hadn't told him.

Of course, this could all be masterful misdirection on the part of the authors, too.

I wonder how much this discussion influences the strips to come or whether Rob already has the next 10 strips in his drawer and just sits in front of his screen laughing diabolically... :belkar:

I'm not sure what will happen next... If Ansom really goes in there (and leaves as soon as he recognizes a trap or whatever) that will break the alliance's moral...
If he doesn't go in there he will break it anyway because he'll be called a chicken for running away from the enemy...

No matter what the donut o' doom holds for him, it wont be nice. I wonder whether it's actually possible to build physical traps (like those jungle fighters use) or whether it's only possible to deploy units and make them "hide". Another question: Does Ansom know the territory the central hex is (from a map or so). What if it is some kind of a mud pool or swamp that slows his units down even further than the thick forest already does... That would quit immobilise his woodsies for a while and either stop the whole column to wait for them or leaves them seperated from the large group making both more vulnerable.

I mean, obviously this is not the position Parson would have chosen in the first place for his donut. It's to close to the column not to be found... So he wants it to be found... har har har... and then... we wait for Saturday...

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Originally Posted by Monan

That's way too subtle of a language switch. I think you might be blowing the switch out of proportion. I as a military officer have switched between the terms "we" and a specific sub-unit's name for an operation unconciously without ever noticing that change or planning on sending my unit along with the other sub-unit. Because I think of the group of units as one team and "we" are trying to win the battle/war.

Ansom would be a fool to expose himself on a gamble like this. I don't consider him foolish with the gamble he's planning, as many of you have said he's basing his plan on what the Tool has done before and what the Tool would probably do. Also, I don't know why anyone thinks he will give the Arkenpliers, that too would be foolish. He loves Jillian and values her impressive fighting prowess, but giving up a one of the Arkentools????? Especially with her track recors for getting captured. Also, it's not Jillian's style to use some normal sized weapon.

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I was unclear and I apologize for that. My point was actually that the dialogue there isn't necessarily proof that Ansom would run out of move if he went with them.

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Originally Posted by Ansom

Our forest units will attack. We'll swing around behind, and punch through the weak hex.

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Originally Posted by Vinny

Uhhhh...That'll eat up about all of our move, boss.

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I'm saying that Vinny's use of "our" in reference to running out of move was because of Ansom's switch to "we", which was just commander-speak for his forest units (like you describe using yourself). I'm just speculating, but the wheel is close to the column and Ansom was originally planning on going with the high move fliers to protect Jillian and the incursion group, which implies that his rug has high move (wow that sounds weird).

The reason why I think that Ansom will be going with them is because of the way that he held up the Arkenpliers at the end while emphasizing that Stanley's warlords are uncroaked. It admittedly might've just been for emphasis/show.

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Originally Posted by Devoured_Dude

If Parson were truly sinister, he'd meet the tunnel assault with uncroaked soldiers (led by uncroaked warlords) then draw Ansom's forces deep into the tunnels. Why? Uncroaked don't have to eat, right? I bet they don't have to breathe either. Fill the tunnels with smoke, green dwagon gas or even water. Flawless victory!

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Or even with... But only if he were truly sinister. :smallyuk:
(Erfworld 53, panel 1)

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Originally Posted by Killer595

what if the back 3 dwagons aren't the weakest? if i was parson, i'd move 3 fully-healed dwagons back there, thus tricking the enemy into believing they were the weakest because of their position. then a sneak attack comes to finish off the few remaining hitpoints and...BAM! fully-powered dwagons come out and destroy them.

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By "weakest" we don't mean weak in terms of health, we mean weak in terms of overall power. ie, red/blue/green dwagons have higher move, attack power, and hits than the purple/yellow/pink dwagons - thus providing further incentive to hit the rear hex than one of the 4- or 5-dwagon hexes closer to the column.

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Originally Posted by Phylactery

"That far hex was weak, tho. stack had only three dragons: a yellow, a purple, and a pink"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0055.html

Vinnie's bat-o-vision is monochrome.

so there :tongue:

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Originally Posted by PePe_QuiCoSE

LOL, true... er... he identifies the dwagons for their shape (?) :P

PD: yeah, i know they all look the same

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Or, he identifies them by their specials... which if true, would mean that Vinny can see stats through the bat-cam, even if the bats themselves cannot.

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Vinnie's bat-o-vision is monochrome.

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Even in black 'n white (or shades of brown [Gameboy vision?]), different shades are still apparent - Vinnie could well know the darkest dwagons are blue, and then from darkest to lightest purple, red, green, yellow, pink.

I've noticed here that there are only two purple dwagons in the Donut of Doom, and one of them is slated for destruction. That will bring about extinction of the species: the remaining dwagon will have nobody to breed with, and there will be no more purple dwagons in Erfworld, ever. :smalleek:

Edit: I forgot that there might be purple dwagons in the "A" group. That changes the picture.

Edit: Unless you can get a purple dwagon by crossing a red with a blue. :smallwink:

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Originally Posted by Freederick

I've noticed here that there are only three purple dwagons in the Donut of Doom, and one of them is slated for destruction. That leaves two; even if we assume different genders, that's playing it perilously close to extinction. If one of the remaining two should bite it, there will be no more purple dwagons in Erfworld, ever. :smalleek:

Edit: I forgot that there might be purple dwagons in the "A" group. That changes the picture.

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Er, creatures in Erfworld are created in a way that doesn't have anything to do with that stuff they explained in middle-school health class. :smallwink:

(Hmmm... if dwagons are "popped" like other units, where does the Arkenhammer's power to tame them come into play?)

Hmm... I would hazard a guess at one of two options:

A) Dwagons are either critters that are typically hostile to all factions and roam around the map (in which case Stanley's supply is limited, and if he wants more he needs to mount an expedition to find and tame them.)

B) Becoming attuned with the Arkenhammer allows an Overlord to designate that Dwagons be produced by his Capital City. Kinda like constructing a special building and thus having access to a new unit, but dependent on attunement to the Arkenhammer (in which case Dwagons are probably costly and can only be produced in very low numbers per turn.)

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Originally Posted by Psychosomatic

By "weakest" we don't mean weak in terms of health, we mean weak in terms of overall power. ie, red/blue/green dwagons have higher move, attack power, and hits than the purple/yellow/pink dwagons - thus providing further incentive to hit the rear hex than one of the 4- or 5-dwagon hexes closer to the column.

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I don't see any conclusive evidence to support this.

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Originally Posted by Vinnie

"That far hex was weak, tho. stack had only three dragons: a yellow, a purple, and a pink"

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This statement only says the back hex was weaker than the other 5 hexes... which is a logical thing to say since it has the fewest number of enemies. In giving the dwagon's colors he's just giving all the information he's learned. Some people here are infering that it also means these color's are weaker, but he isn't necessarily implying that.

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Originally Posted by Beren One-Hand

Some people here are infering that it also means these color's are weaker, but he isn't necessarily implying that.

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Actually we've seen a pink dwagon in the A group (that bubble-attack against one of the Battle Bears). And the strategic map shows also red and blue dragons in the donut-o'-doom.


I support the idea that "A" and "B" dwagons only are sorted by move. This might mean that the "A" dwagons have levelled more. Then higher move is caused by higher experience (just like the dwagons "grow" by each battle and thus can move faster/further).
Or the dwagons might have special abilities like "fast" or "enlarged area of breath attack" in which case the A dwagons would be the ones with the special ability "fast".
But as there are so many "A" dwagons the experience idea seems more probable unless the "fast" feature is the most common one amongst dwagons.

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Originally Posted by Waldgeist

Actually we've seen a pink dwagon in the A group (that bubble-attack against one of the Battle Bears). And the strategic map shows also red and blue dragons in the donut-o'-doom.

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It's also important to note that we're not certain as to how much Parson's plan of attack has changed from the one originially formed when he didn't know about Ansom's lack of intelligence. 'Tis possible that there are A group dragons mixed into the fruitloop of ultimate defense. Personally, I think it's significant that the rear hex is the only one that doesn't have a blue or red dwagon.

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Originally Posted by Psychosomatic

It's also important to note that we're not certain as to how much Parson's plan of attack has changed from the one originially formed when he didn't know about Ansom's lack of intelligence. 'Tis possible that there are A group dragons mixed into the fruitloop of ultimate defense. Personally, I think it's significant that the rear hex is the only one that doesn't have a blue or red dwagon.

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But wouldn't Ansom instantly know which dwagons are stronger and which are weaker? I still prefere the D&D like view that different colour first of all means different kinds of elements the dwagons are attached to... Red to fire, light green to acid, pink to gum(?) and so on... There might be certain immunities against one or the other weapon for special units (like crap golems against that dark green dragons attack which hit Bogrol...) but in general each dwagon pops (interesting that that is an active word rather than "is popped") equally strong or maybe with different focusses on attack or defense... But dwagons with strength depending on colour would mean that a pink dwagon goes to sleep after a battle and awakes as a green one. And instead of breathing those bubbles he now has to boop these boop bolts...

If only gambling were legal in the US, Jamie and Rob would have no want of money for drawing this thing. I have seen so many theories tossed around and so much speculation that I can't help but believe that if they had 3 weeks of comics in "escrow" and a bookie setup they could rake it in by taking a small cut of the "action".