Sinfest: It's Now OPENLY Radfem (second wave)

I was a big fan of Sinfest back in the day, like many, I started losing interest after Trike Girl and her possy started taking over the comic. I finally stopped reading it after Monique snubbed Slick after he tried to be friends again, after a long spell of them not even talking. Deep in my heart, I still have some hope that they will get back together and the comic might return to its roots, even now, so I check back once or twice a year (I think it might have been over a year since I checked back last time though. Man the art change really threw me for a loop). Generally, I go through the forum and pick out pages that have a high post number, so I can see what the attitudes are.

I just checked back and noticed a curious thing. The forum was gone, so I went to the main page and I found this.

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July 1, 2018
Take The Long Way Home
Posted by Tatsuya Ishida
Hi.

I'm launching a new forum for people who like the message of my comic.

The new forum will be anti-pornography, anti-prostitution.

It will favor the radical feminist perspective over a liberal or conservative one.

So if you'd like to participate in a forum environment more in harmony with the comic, I invite you to join.

http://www.sinfest.net/forum

Thanks.

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http://www.sinfest.net/

I'm a bit at a loss for words.

He's not only openly admitting it, but he DELETED his old forum, which was already HEAVILY biased towards him. Anyone that said negative things about Tats got shouted down. Did even these people finally start turning against him? I'm flabbergasted. Has he gone off the deep end? Has there been a second feminist shift? What happened while I was away? I know I don't check back much but it's been YEARS since the comic shift and I thought that the dissenters were pretty much gone at this point.

The new forum has literally only 2 posts so far that break ten posts. The first one is asking to bring back the light heartedness, and the second is commenting on a strip that has zombies asking the writer avatar for more positive portrayals of men.

Anyone know how to pull up the analytics for website views? I'm curious if there has been a another big hit or not.

Also, Tats has a patreon page, makes a fair amount of money, honestly. Surprised he only started it this year. It heads off with this little gem to describe the comic.

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Hi, I'm the creator of Sinfest, an online comic that's been running since 2000. Over the years it has gone through many changes, to the delight of some and dismay of others. I hope to continue polarizing audiences for many years to come. Your support is greatly appreciated.

Vive la Resistance.

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What the hell happened to you Tats? This guy is the absolute most stark example of a complete ideology shift I have ever witnessed.

EDIT: Found a forum that regularly snarks about Sinfest. Seems he's been doing a story arc featuring Johnbies (porn addicts who are also zombies), and lashing out at straw men that don't like his story just before deleting the old forums. This does feel like the author was dealing with mounting frustration and just ended up saying "screw it", and committing fully to the hugbox approach. The deletion happened on September 2 and I guess the new forum showed up a couple months before that. I can't much information on how much these people were complaining though.

I wonder if there will be a clear divide for when people started hating the newest Sinfest, like we had before. I guess this is incarnation three.

First incarnation is making fun of everyone.

Second incarnation is promoting feminism, anyone arguing is shouted down. My understanding is that the feminists that read his stuff didn't think it was intersectional enough, and this is the divide that led to phase 3.

Third incarnation is promoting radical feminism, with the main focus being anti prostitution. Banhammer falls strongly against anyone that doesn't toe the line.

It's his comic. He's allowed to do what he wants with it. Same deal with his forums. Nobody is required to read it.

If you keep checking back thinking he's going to revert to his old ways, you're wasting your time. I really don't think that will happen.

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Originally Posted by tomaO2

I'm a bit at a loss for words.

He's not only openly admitting it, but he DELETED his old forum, which was already HEAVILY biased towards him. Anyone that said negative things about Tats got shouted down. Did even these people finally start turning against him? I'm flabbergasted. Has he gone off the deep end? Has there been a second feminist shift? What happened while I was away? I know I don't check back much but it's been YEARS since the comic shift and I thought that the dissenters were pretty much gone at this point.

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I'm not sure what's so surprising. It's been a long time since Sinfest was anything except what it is now. I'm not sure why you thought it might go back to the way it was. Where you under the impression that he didn't realize how much of his previous base he'd turned off? Or that he wasn't genuine in his beliefs? Ishida has drank the kool aid to his new beliefs, and those who have not followed along are not the people he's drawing for anymore.

At first I thought he might be an extremely long-con troll, since-- to a non-second wave radical feminist-- much of what he does seems more like what the alt-right would like to think second wave radical feminism looks like. However, over time he's shown that he is sincere.

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Anyone know how to pull up the analytics for website views? I'm curious if there has been a another big hit or not.

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Piece of advice--don't do this to yourself. I mean, what if his numbers are up? Or, frankly, what if they really are down, does it prove anything? Does it prove anything you want proved (given that his comic is well over a decade old, even if his numbers are in a decline, it doesn't really prove much since few webcomics get more popular over time)? And, even if his numbers are down, and it could be shown that it was because of this shift, what finding satisfaction in it be any less gravedancing? Be better than that. Ishida has made a choice. We are not required to follow him on his journey. Of all online content providers, he is not one who is going to swing the needle outside of his own little comic. Thus, all we lost are Slick and Monique, who were his to do with as he pleased. I doubt he was going to give them a fairy tale ending even originally.

It's very problematic discussing Sinfest due to the reasonable forum restriction we have here.

I continue to read the comic, and still find it occasionally funny or whimsical. Mostly, though, it's a rant. Not untrue, but also often requiring more effort than it's worth.

There's a comic in the earlier parts that always struck me as being a good representation of the difference between the two, not because it was the funniest or the most shocking or the most politically incorrect or whatever, but because it was a comic that would probably horrify the author today. It more or less sets up an abortion debate between Seymour and Lil' E. Seymour's argument is, naturally, "abortion is baby murder". The joke of the comic is where Lil' E, instead of responding with typical pro-choice arguments, says something along the lines of (and this is almost a direct quote): "Hell yeah! Have sex, kill babies!" The unexpectedness of such a ridiculous counter-argument makes the comic funny on its own (provided you find jokes of this nature amusing if done well), but taking a step back and looking at the logic of the comic...both sides agree that abortion is baby-murder, they joke is that the disagreement is about "baby murder is good/evil" instead of "abortion is/isn't baby murder".

Regardless of your stance on this issue, and regardless of your opinion of the comic, and regardless of your opinion in regards to his approach to putting his politics in his comic...on a meta level, it's hilarious to think that Ishida ever had a joke like this in the comic. It feels different from just making comics leaning on stereotypes, it almost feels like the kind of opinion he might've had before his shift - but it's difficult to say, considering that while Seymour is supposed to represent the more fervent Christians, he's never really been the good guy of the comic, so his stance isn't necessarily supposed to be agreed with (which is part of what makes the comic funny on its own, but that's besides the point).

...anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. I don't expect the comic to return to gag-a-day with occasional storylines, but if that's not what I want, I don't have to read it.

I just had a look at that forum, and yikes, I never want to go back there. The longest thread on the forum right now is on the subject of "trans women are not women, they are men trying to invade safe spaces". Yeah.

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Originally Posted by tomaO2

First incarnation is making fun of everyone.

Second incarnation is promoting feminism, anyone arguing is shouted down. My understanding is that the feminists that read his stuff didn't think it was intersectional enough, and this is the divide that led to phase 3.

Third incarnation is promoting radical feminism, with the main focus being anti prostitution. Banhammer falls strongly against anyone that doesn't toe the line.

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As others said - if anyone wants to fill their house with gasoline and attach fireworks to their crotch, lite it up and then go dance in their house, they are free to do so. Link for google trends.

Sinfest spiraling into radical feminism seems fitting for the comic. I mean, it makes Avatar (the James Cameron movie) look positively subtle. Avatar featured Colonel McBadass that doesn't need oxygen to function and element called Unobtainum...

Great Modthulhu: Please remember that politics are an Inappropriate Topic here. If it is impossible to discuss the contents of the comic without addressing or mentioning its political aspects, then it just shouldn't be talked about here at all.

I remember liking the comic, back when I was in college, so I picked a random strip from 2017 and reading a few months.

Even though the mods of this forum seem to wear their jackboots less often than most on this site, it's still hard to discuss; it's an inherently political comic. I'm not sure Tat'd see it that way- he'd probably say it's more moralistic- but... having only two issues, that are deeply related, gives an easy work around. Spirit of the law, jackbooted thugs, etc.

The comic is not very... Anything.

It's not funny, but it doesn't seem like it's trying to be. I did laugh (alright, snort) about once per arc, and at the pet strips; so I know he still has it in him.

It's not shocking or thought provoking, but it clearly doesn't want to be. It looks to be as inoffensive a push for [politics] as it can be. It makes it bland, in an eye-rolling "yes yes I got the point the first five times" kind of way.

I guess it's supposed to be educational? You do get the point he's trying to get across.

It's not bad, it's just not very interesting. I just can't see reading it for entertainment unless being pro [politics] is a significant part of your life and you're the type who really likes seeing your views being in a comic strip.

It sort of reads like a grumpy old man rambling about [politics] these days. Like Michael Poe's new comic, just without the kekestan conspiracy theories and from a far off view.

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Then I looked at the forum. I read all the big threads & the handful that looked interesting.

It's a deeply toxic place that will only harm the people involved, and push away others who don't want to deal with the abuse.

There's only two bad people there; the issues are one of them owns the place, the other is the only person who really says anything, and violating the purity of her [politics/biology] turns her downright vicious. Everyone else either sticks to vague platitudes praising her or gets banned.

I'm assuming the change of forum is Tat's way of making a big, visible apology for everything before the shift to [politics]. There's no reason for it to exist otherwise*; it's less open to discussion than a blog. I understand the author is trying to make... Something for [politics], but he's turned into an enabler for the type of person who turns people off from [politics].

It was a fun look down the memory hole. I might read a few more random strips down the line; but I doubt it. I'm leaving the forums behind & never looking back.

*Unless it's a really long con

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Originally Posted by theMycon

There's only two bad people there; the issues are one of them owns the place, the other is the only person who really says anything, and violating the purity of her [politics/biology] turns her downright vicious. Everyone else either sticks to vague platitudes praising her or gets banned.

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Went to check on this cuz it seemed ridiculous to me, but as it turns out...there 275 users, and 576 posts. Of those, the two you're referring to have 8 and 231 posts respectively. I also glanced through some of the sub-forums and found another few users with 17/26/28 posts respectively before I got bored of checking for double-digit posters. The biggest one on their own is ~40% of the posts there, and the five of them together is ~54%, which the remaining 270 users having 266 posts between them. I imagine a good chunk of those are inactive lurkers which is fine, but it's still weird to think "the person who posts most to that forum is 40% of the posts". Like...okay, for comparison, the top 100 most active posters to this forum have 2049008 posts altogether, which is ~11.2% of the posts on this site. It's natural that the most active people on the site will have more than their equivalent share of the activity, and that most users will be lurkers, but when one person is ~40% of a forum's activity...I dunno, it feels weird to think about. Like, makes me wonder how welcome discussion or commenting is over there.

Read a few threads. They come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who doesn't have the right opinions. And very narrow definitions of "right" too. A lot of the smaller threads go along the lines of "I find this comic interesting, I believe a lot of the ideas here, but maybe [slight disagreement on small point]", followed by "go whine somewhere else, you patriarchal scum, you are too aggressive for this forum".

Frankly, at this point I think the author point of view has been made, as well as how well he takes criticism or that he intend to keep his comic going in the same dirrection, weither it pleases most of the old readership or not. If you aren't of those who like it (I'm not, personally) maybe both comic and forums are just better altogether avoided ?

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Originally Posted by smuchmuch

Frankly, at this point I think the author point of view has been made, as well as how well he takes criticism or thathe intend to keep his comic going in the same dirrection, weither it pleases most of the old readership or not. If you aren't of those who like it (I'm not, personally) maye both comic and forums are just better altogether avoided ?

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Well put, especially the forums. The way things get handled there is not a healthy atmosphere for a forum. It is a shame though because he really does have the talent and comedic know how to make a good comic if he still wanted to.

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Originally Posted by Dragonus45

Well put, especially the forums. The way things get handled there is not a healthy atmosphere for a forum. It is a shame though because he really does have the talent and comedic know how to make a good comic if he still wanted to.

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Oh absolutely, it was a huge part of the draw in the first place. The Sunday extra-long no-dialogue comics are proof positive he's masterful at taking advantage of his visual medium to tell a story.

Sinfest is one of those things that's so over-the-top, it reads as parody of whatever it's trying to portray. I've never paid attention to its own discussion forums, so those are basically irrelevant.

Nothing wrong with being radfem per se. The issue Sinfest has is that it's inherently swerfy and very strongly implied terfy. That's just not any kind of feminism I can support because they're inherently hateful and missing the point. There's also the hilarious irony of a man standing up and declaring that his way is the one and only true feminism, but Tat seems completely immune to the kind of actual introspection needed to understand that irony.

I'm still a fan. For me, it's still fun - funnier than "1st iteration Sinfest" was.

The comic has changed as the author "sees the matrix" (or has his characters do) but the same underlying spirit of snarking against reality is still there. He's just looking at it from a different angle than many of his former fans.

I used to like Sinfest. Maybe I would even go as far to say I loved it.

That has changed. Slowly, but subtly. Yeah, as it may have been obvious, but the Trike Girl and her pose were the start of it. But, I was willing to give it a chance, on the off shot that it was, well... an off shot.

As days, weeks and months ticked by, it became increasingly obvious that isn't the case. I don't remember what was the breaking point, but I came to the point I just couldn't take it anymore. At that point, I just said to myself, eh, **** it, packed my bags and set course for greener pastures. I checked back in semi regular intervals every now and then, but nothing much seems to have changed, to my lack of surprise and something of a disappointment.

Now, I will acknowledge, Tat, as an author, has a full right and an authority to take his comic any way he pleases. I'm cool with that and support him even. What disappoints me thought, is the lack of subtlety. I know he can be subtle... I've seen him do it(or at least perceived it as such). But the whole radical thing... it has all the subtlety of a sledgehammer and I'm belittling all the sledgehammers in existence by saying that.

I get it... you like the idea. I've gotten it after the first three dozen times, dense as I may be sometimes. You can stop now and get back with with the regular program anytime soon...

What's that? You don't wanna?

Fine. Just don't expect me along for the ride anymore.

The toxic environment of the new forum doesn't help matter any.

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Originally Posted by Mordokai

I used to like Sinfest. Maybe I would even go as far to say I loved it.

That has changed. Slowly, but subtly. Yeah, as it may have been obvious, but the Trike Girl and her pose were the start of it. But, I was willing to give it a chance, on the off shot that it was, well... an off shot.

As days, weeks and months ticked by, it became increasingly obvious that isn't the case. I don't remember what was the breaking point, but I came to the point I just couldn't take it anymore. At that point, I just said to myself, eh, **** it, packed my bags and set course for greener pastures. I checked back in semi regular intervals every now and then, but nothing much seems to have changed, to my lack of surprise and something of a disappointment.

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Honestly the heavyhanded approach to this rather extreme political stance isn't even really the biggest problem for me. Even if I agreed with the message the comic puts forth, and even if I was fine continuing to read a political drama strip that I started reading because it was a funny gag-a-day strip, I'm not sure I would really have the patience for it because it's boring. Every old character who actually had things like "flaws", "a personality", or "interesting abilities" has become a secondary character at best, bit players in the ongoing political struggle. And the ones that are still around as part of the main group (Monique, Slick, Squiggly sometimes, and the Devil) have been dumbed down into caricatures of their previous selves, walking stereotypes without any real depth to them. And it's gotta be because if they weren't like that, having them next to the cardboard cutouts of Trike Girl and her posse would make their relative flatness even more obvious. I mean, okay, obviously those characters aren't allowed to have flaws (because then they wouldn't be perfect rebels fighting against the Man), but they're not even allowed to have characters outside of how exactly they go about rebelling. I'm not even sure they have real names - maybe Trike Girl got a name drop after several years, I think? But I'm pretty sure the others never did, and I couldn't tell you basically anything about the others, which is why we just refer to them as a group, because they're not individuals, they only matter as part of the collective "**** the system" movement they're a part of. There's...the black hacker girl? The girl wielding a staff? I think they like hoodies? And so because they can't look bad in comparison, the others had to be dumbed down to be a part of the new comic. But before that happened, I could tell you stuff about their backstory and personality and flaws and dreams, because they were written as people.

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Originally Posted by AvatarVecna

Honestly the heavyhanded approach to this rather extreme political stance isn't even really the biggest problem for me. Even if I agreed with the message the comic puts forth, and even if I was fine continuing to read a political drama strip that I started reading because it was a funny gag-a-day strip, I'm not sure I would really have the patience for it because it's boring. Every old character who actually had things like "flaws", "a personality", or "interesting abilities" has become a secondary character at best, bit players in the ongoing political struggle. And the ones that are still around as part of the main group (Monique, Slick, Squiggly sometimes, and the Devil) have been dumbed down into caricatures of their previous selves, walking stereotypes without any real depth to them. And it's gotta be because if they weren't like that, having them next to the cardboard cutouts of Trike Girl and her posse would make their relative flatness even more obvious. I mean, okay, obviously those characters aren't allowed to have flaws (because then they wouldn't be perfect rebels fighting against the Man), but they're not even allowed to have characters outside of how exactly they go about rebelling. I'm not even sure they have real names - maybe Trike Girl got a name drop after several years, I think? But I'm pretty sure the others never did, and I couldn't tell you basically anything about the others, which is why we just refer to them as a group, because they're not individuals, they only matter as part of the collective "**** the system" movement they're a part of. There's...the black hacker girl? The girl wielding a staff? I think they like hoodies? And so because they can't look bad in comparison, the others had to be dumbed down to be a part of the new comic. But before that happened, I could tell you stuff about their backstory and personality and flaws and dreams, because they were written as people.

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Yeah, I get what you're saying. And I very much agree with you. Probably something that I should have mentioned myself. Come to think of it... not sure why I didn't... Perhaps it took somebody else(like yourself, for example), to put it into words more eloquently than I ever could :smallsmile:

But yeah... I very much miss the days of levity. Sinfest had its instances of heavy handeness before... it was something of a political comic even before its current descent into the radical feminism. But through it all, most of the iconic characters(Squig, Slick, Monique and everybody else) were there, just being... themselves. They made fools of themselves, sometimes in cartoonish way(big surprise there, I guess :smallbiggrin:), but through it all, they remained humane, believable and true to themselves and their established persona.

And it was a joy to read about them! Their adventures and their misgivings. I could laugh at them and with them. Those days are long gone.

Like I said, it's been a long time since I sit down and took some time to read it, but whenever I do that... there doesn't seem to much in the way of characters I came to love. And even when they do show up... that still very much holds true. They may wear the faces of Slick and Monique(has anybody seen Squigly?)... but that are not Slick and Monique I came to know and love. What you said, is absolutely true... they are there to make Trike Girl* and her posse look good. Well, at least Slick is... I'm not entirely sure what's up with Monique.

So yeah... I guess that, apart from my previous complaints, you can also add that I don't read the comic anymore because it's totally different from what it used to be... and sadly, not in a good way.

*according to TvTropes, her name is Xanthe. I think there's Violet in there somewhere, but yeah... just lousy characterization all around, I guess.

I first heard about Sinfest on the Gunnerkrigg Court forum, although I never tried reading it. Recently, it was brought back to my attention due to an algorithm behaving in a weird manner. More specifically, Alexa Internet's Find Similar Sites tool. If you enter a website, it returns a list of websites which have a high audience overlap. For example, putting in giantitp.com spits back enworld, dndbeyond, dandwiki, roll20, and d20pfsrd. I think the purpose of the tool is for businesses who want to "know more about their customers," and if you pay them a lot of money they show you more detailed information.

Anyhow, I occasionally check the Alexa similar sites for webcomics I follow. Usually, that leads to other webcomics with a decent overlap in readership, and there are some comics I enjoy that I first heard about this way. That a comic shows up in the similar sites for another comic you enjoy is, of course, far from a perfect indicator of whether you will enjoy a comic. It is at most as accurate as automated recommendations on Youtube or Amazon. And it has the additional caveat of not being designed to make website recommendations to end users in the first place.


With that said, recently Sinfest has started showing up in the similar sites list for four other comics I read: Dumbing of Age, Girls With Slingshots, Gunnerkrigg Court, and Strong Female Protagonist. The overlap with Gunnerkrigg Court isn't all that surprising, since I have seen several people on the GKC forum say they read or used to read Sinfest. However, now that I have looked up what Sinfest is about and looked at some of the more recent comics (along with this thread), the possibility that it has any overlap in its audience with those other three comics seems strange.

The story in Girls With Slingshots is very clearly pro-sex-workers, although the comic doesn't show any actual on-panel nudity. I have a hard time imagining any swerfs could really enjoy GWS.

Dumbing of Age is supportive of trans rights. And, while the comic itself is not sexually explicit, statements by the author outside of the comic are very clearly supportive of sex workers. The authors of SFP are also pro-trans and pro-sex-worker rights, although it doesn't come through as clearly in their comic so maybe it's easier for the kind of people who like current Sinfest to read SFP.

My conclusion is that at least one of the following three things is happening:

1)A significant number of people are reading Sinfest despite not agreeing with its message, and some of those people are also reading DoA and GWS.
2)Some swerfs/terfs who like the message of Sinfest are also reading Dumbing of Age and Girls with Slingshots despite thinking both of those comics are evil.
3)Amazon's algorithm is producing strange results that shouldn't be taken seriously.

In any case, I don't think I am going to try to read all of Sinfest. The descriptions from people in this thread have convinced me it isn't worth it.

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Originally Posted by 137ben

My conclusion is that at least one of the following three things is happening:

1)A significant number of people are reading Sinfest despite not agreeing with its message, and some of those people are also reading DoA and GWS.
2)Some swerfs/terfs who like the message of Sinfest are also reading Dumbing of Age and Girls with Slingshots despite thinking both of those comics are evil.
3)Amazon's algorithm is producing strange results that shouldn't be taken seriously.

In any case, I don't think I am going to try to read all of Sinfest. The descriptions from people in this thread have convinced me it isn't worth it.

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I wouldn't be surprised if there's a fairly large contingent who were fans of the old Sinfest and are still hate-reading the new version.

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Originally Posted by geoduck

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a fairly large contingent who were fans of the old Sinfest and are still hate-reading the new version.

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That was me - kinda. It was something between this and hoping it will get better. But thing about hate, it kinda burns out after a while. I can't be bothered to hate it anymore.

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Originally Posted by 137ben

My conclusion is that at least one of the following three things is happening:

1)A significant number of people are reading Sinfest despite not agreeing with its message, and some of those people are also reading DoA and GWS.
2)Some swerfs/terfs who like the message of Sinfest are also reading Dumbing of Age and Girls with Slingshots despite thinking both of those comics are evil.
3)Amazon's algorithm is producing strange results that shouldn't be taken seriously.

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Trying to stay away from the line in the sand on politics, this is going to be a little convoluted of a response. The overall political brand which SinFest, DoA, and GWS is, like any other political brand, a diverse lot. There are going to be people who agree on many base principles, but who volatilely disagree on other issues. The common ground of these three comics fandoms is a general pro-____ trend. That the comics individually have very different stances on sub-topics (wave of philosophical underpinning, level of radicalism, whether certain subgroups fall under the sympathized-cause banner). It seems reasonable that a perfect match for DoA might read GWS, and if asked, might say, 'yeah, it really bothers me that _____, but I find common ground with what is says about _____.'