Advice for returning player: Dwarf Avenger/invoker hybrid

I've been invited to play a 4e game, I believe the starting level is 15, higher than I'm used to playing and I haven't played 4e in a long time. I'd especially appreciate advice on feats, ability score spread, powers, equipment and paragon paths so everything basically. :P All advice is welcome though. I'll update when I learn the full PC lineup. I know my coworker has a lv 22 Dragonborn paladin, he's higher level than the rest since he's been playing this character for 3 campaign arcs (according to him). It seems strange to have such a large level gap, hopefully I'll be given another level or two, I'll see. Thank you for your help in advance. :)

Spoiler: Harsk Avenger/Invoker 15

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Harsk Dwarven Avenger/Invoker hybrid lv 15

starting Ability scores (22 point buy from PHB) Number in () after racial mod:
Str 13, Con 12 (14), Dex 11, Int 15, Wis 16 (18), Cha 8

Abil score increase by level :
Lv 4: st, int, lv 8: str, wis L11: all, lv 14 int, wis

scores at lv 15
St 16, con 15, dex 12, Int 18, wis 21, cha 9

skill (trained) arc, perc, religion

Class features: oath of emnity (hybrid), covenant of wrath

Equipment: Standard lv +1, Lv, lv-1, gold=lv-1

+3 Cloak of survival, belt of gaint str, +4 feyweave cloth armor, +3 holy symbol, +3 resounding maul, bag of holding, 2k gold

AC 31 (32 vs large+), Fort 26, ref 24 (25 large+), will 26 resist fire, cold 5, dwarven racials

Feats: hybrid talent armor of faith, improved armor of faith, avenger resolution, dwarven weapon training, dodge giants,
uncanny dodge, great fort, clinging radiance, liberating teleport, power attack

Powers:

At will: grasp shard invoker, leading strike avenger

Utility: lv 2 arcane muttering (skill power), lv 6 astral step inv, lv 10 eye of justice avenger

Encounter: lv 1 blades of astral fire inv, lv 3 sequestering strike av, lv 7 rain of blood inv, lv 13 avenging sun av

Daily lv 1 angelic echelon inv, lv 5 dawn fire sigil av, lv 9 enduring str av, lv 15 wall of blades inv

A level gap at all is bad news.

A 7 level gap is very bad news.

Be vary wary.

Barring breaking the game itself, there is nothing a level 15 character can do in an encounter that challenges a level 22 character, and there is no challenge in an encounter for a level 22 character in an encounter that a level 15 character can contribute to.

There is in essence no game here.

If you would like to sit around a table and tell stories to each other with no mechanics to back it up, feel free to join in that non-game of D&D.

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Originally Posted by Yakk

Barring breaking the game itself, there is nothing a level 15 character can do in an encounter that challenges a level 22 character, and there is no challenge in an encounter for a level 22 character in an encounter that a level 15 character can contribute to.

There is in essence no game here.

If you would like to sit around a table and tell stories to each other with no mechanics to back it up, feel free to join in that non-game of D&D.

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Slight technical quibble. A level 15 lazylord or similar could definitely contribute to an encounter that challenges a level 22 character. He'd just have to hope he didn't get targeted too often while giving away all of his relevant actions to the level 22 character.

But yeah, other than giving away their actions to a level 22 character, a level 15 character isn't going to contribute much.

Echoing the above, I agree that having a level-22 character in a level-15 group is not going to be fun for the group, because he'll be upstaging everybody else all the time. If this is the kind of player that needs to be the best at everything, you should ask yourself whether you want to share a table with him in the first place.

I wouldn't put Strength so high. For defenses, it overlaps with Con (which is superior in that regard), and hammer feats generally run on Constitution. Given the need to keep AC up as well, not raising Int (Dex is generally better for combat purposes, but you might have other reasons to prefer Int) whenever possible might also end up hurting.

I'd either drop Int/Dex and pick up heavy armor instead (even if Invoker armor proficiency is pretty terrible) or check to see that I have the Con to meet the prereqs of whatever Hammer feats I want, get that much Con and then put everything else into Wis/AC stat.

Furthermore, even as an Avenger, and especially given the apparent likelihood of you facing higher level enemies, Power Attack will not be useful for you. Take Painful Oath in Paragon for damage.

I thank everyone for their responses. I'm glad to know that my reservations concerning the level gap was not unfounded, hopefully I'll be joining at level 18 to hopefully 20. It's possible my coworker just was wrong on the level of the other PCs. I've asked for an official starting level, and am waiting for the response.

@ Waddacku: I was wondering about power attack, most of my game experience is from 3.5/pathfinder which probably gave me an inflated estimation on the importance of power attack. I'm not sure how to get full plate prof since the feat requires st and con of 15. I could easily go con 15, int 16, wis 18 at first end up with c16, int 20, wis 22 and switch out power attack for unarmored agility. AC 34, a 3 point increase. I'm having trouble finding painful oath, I would gladly switch out a paragon feat for it, but I'm a little unsure what it does.

Stop spreading stat bumps around. All go to wis and int. Spreading bumps is almost always a bad idea.

Your avenger AC feature only works in cloth, and with int bumps and focus and the feature cloth is plate quality or better anyhow.

If you need a basic attack, worship Ioun and take Power of Skill. Ioun is awesome anyhow; killer librarian! Or take melee training.

4e strikers win by making more attacks.

Get 13 str and wis. Take the fighter MC that grants 1/enc an immediate interrupt Basic Attack if an adjacent foe ignores you. Pick powers that grant minor or immediate attacks as encounter powers.

For feats, get static damage bonuses.

Consider swapping int for dex if possible. Then power swap for Rain of Blows and make your weapon a Gouge (which DWT grants proficiency in) for a 1/encounter 3x tap (even without oath).

Also get surprising charge for +[W] when you charge with your gouge. With Power of Skill your basic attack uses Wisdom and is an Avenger power.

Gouge is a two handed +2 prof 2d6B1 spear/axe. DWT grants proficiency with all axes, and it is a top notch damage weapon.

Spear Expertise grants another +1/tier damage on a charge, as a bonus on top of thr +1/tier to-hit.

@ Yakk: Concerning ability scores, I'm now focused on Wis/Int with a con 16, bumping wis/int at every opportunity, thank you. I'll switch deity from Moradin to Ioun and pick up power of skill to get overwhelming strike as a basic attack (dropping dodge giants). I'll also get the gouge instead of the maul, which I didn't know that DWT granted proficiency to, great to know. :) Hopefully I'll have a higher starting level to pick of one of the feats you mention. Killer Librarian sounds cool. :smallcool:

What are you considering for paragon path?

Painful Oath is in Dragon Magazine issue 382. Once a turn (not just per round), your hit against your oathie deals an extra [WisMod] necrotic and radiant. And using the Rules Compendium rule on adding damage types, that tacks on necrotic and radiant to whatever other damage types you're using, too.

Power Attack is actively bad for your average damage output, because it makes you miss considerably more. Avenger can use it better than any other class but that -2 to hit does still hurt them. The only time I'd use it is with the Storvakal paragon path, which eliminates up to 2 points in attack penalties as a level 11 feature.

Improved Defenses feat from Heroes of the Fallen Lands or Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms would be handy for your NADs. It's a +2 feat bonus to all three, compared with the +3 to one that you get from Great Fortitude. Also, if you prefer to focus on Fortitude, there's now Superior Fortitude which does everything GF does plus a bit of resistance to ongoing damage. It's in the same two books as Improved Defenses.

If you're using a gouge, consider the Carnage Weapon enchantment for a good boost to average damage. I like putting that on any weapon that rolls two small dice per [W], so there's more chance of it triggering.

Thank you Diners, you've provided a lot of great info. I was thinking of taking the favored soul (avenger) paragon path. I'll look into carnage, currently I have the gauge as +3 vicious. I think I'll switch to the fort focused death thank you for that info. I've changed equipment too. Switched out belt of giant are for boots spring/stride and also 3 stormwalker cloak for the other cloak.

It's open to DM interpretation but the feat Distant Vengeance in Dragon 382 can make an invoker ranged basic attack at-will in to a strong option.

Spoiler: Feat Text

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Prerequisites: Avenger, oath of enmity power
Benefit: As long as you are within 10 squares of
your oath of enmity target and no other enemies are
adjacent to you, you gain the benefit of your oath of
enmity on all ranged basic attacks against your oath of
enmity target.

Superior Will is a feat tax. Stun/Daze sucks, and a save at start of turn to shrug it off (even if eont) rocks.

Again, bumping 3 stats is simply dumb. You paid more at character creation for your high starts and are now throwing the points away.

On top of that, your ATK, Dam bonus, and AC are the three most important modifiers you have. Dex/Int adds to AC (and damage with averngwr feature someimes). Wis adds to ATK and DAM. Stop throwing away effextiveness for no good reason. Bump both always.

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Originally Posted by Yakk

Superior Will is a feat tax. Stun/Daze sucks, and a save at start of turn to shrug it off (even if eont) rocks.

Again, bumping 3 stats is simply dumb. You paid more at character creation for your high starts and are now throwing the points away.

On top of that, your ATK, Dam bonus, and AC are the three most important modifiers you have. Dex/Int adds to AC (and damage with averngwr feature someimes). Wis adds to ATK and DAM. Stop throwing away effextiveness for no good reason. Bump both always.

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I think there is some confusion concerning the ability scores. I have changed the starting ability scores and the ability score increases as per you suggestion already. In the most recent character build the level 1 scores (including racial mods): St 11, Con 15, Dex 10, Int 16, wis 18, cha 8. I have then placed all ability score increases to int/wis. For Superior Will i could switch out Liberating Teleport, it'd probably be better and I think it will make the character much better, thank you for your continued advice for this character. :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by ChaiGuy

For Superior Will i could switch out Liberating Teleport, it'd probably be better and I think it will make the character much better, thank you for your continued advice for this character. :smallsmile:

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I second that suggestion. As a general idea, if you have an ability that works once or twice per encounter, don't spend a feat to boost that - i.e. don't take liberating teleport unless you're likely to be teleporting every turn.

Well, Eladrin Swordmage Advance is an exception to that rule; it is a feat that boosts a per encounter ability enough for a feat to be spent. Similar is a power swap for a 3x attack standard action.

I can think of other "once per encounter" feats that are also worth taking--off the top of my head, Combat Commander, Skill Power, and Reserve Maneuver. I'm sure there are more. The key is how much power you're getting out of the feat. If it's going to see limited use, it needs to be a much more powerful benefit than something you can get from an always-on feat. Liberating Teleport fails that metric.

That's why it's a general idea, as opposed to a hard-and-fast rule :smallbiggrin:

Note that spending a feat to gain a new encounter ability (as in, most of the examples Yakk and Tiornys give) is a very different matter from spending a feat to add a small bonus to an ability you already have. The former is worth a feat, the latter is not (as, you know, a general idea).