Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Race and Stats
Races: Variant Human. Rogues benefit greatly from feats. The extra skill is yet another to exploit with Reliable Talent. Stat bonuses are incidental; just make sure the only odd stat you have at level 1 is one you can bump with Moderately Armored. Should you choose another race, drop Skilled/Weapon Master altogether and delay Lucky. You'll have to delay the other feats up a few levels, but that's no big deal. This build doesn't really come online until you have Moderately Armored and Fast Hands, which you can do with a non-human by level 4.
Strength: Affects saving throws, encumbrance, checks to pry open trap doors, and checks to climb up shear walls with Second-Story Work. The combination strength score and dexterity bonus feeds into your total Second-Story Jump distance, but that doesn't matter very much. Strength also supports attack and damage values with shortswords and daggers and many break/destroy commands can be negotiated as a Fast Hands: Use Object actions.
Dexterity: Get it to 14 and forget it. With that you can wear half-plate at 17AC. Dexterity is everywhere strength isn't. Every other rogue caps it for a reason. This build prioritizes survivability, ability checks, and dynamism over single target damage support. The opportunity cost of high strength over dexterity is almost completely mitigated by Moderately Armored and Expertise.
That's about it, really. Do what you will with the rest of your stats.
Spoiler: Typical Stat Allotment
Show
As a variant human, I elect these stats at level 1: STR 14+1, DEX 13+1, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14
Strength gets bumped 3 times: Variant Human, Moderately Armored, and eventually from an Ability Score Increase. Dexterity stays at 14 to prevent the AC bonus from overlapping with armor cap. Raising it higher is just fine, but not necessary.
Feats are always higher priority than stats. You'll be relying more on advantage and sneak attack than stats to reliably hit and deal damage.
Proficiencies
Hit Dice: d8. Not as much as you want, but enough to tank a hit like a champ with Uncanny Dodge. You never have to roll Concentration ability checks, and if you're positioning properly, you control whether you get hit or hurt.
Armor: Light Armor will get you by until Moderately Armored. Studded Leather is still handy on the occasions you can't find a way around the disadvantage from Half-Plate and still want to sneak your way through an encounter.
Weapons: Quite fun until you find a magic item. Most of the time, you'll want to equip a hand crossbow and a shortsword. But bring along several daggers, a light crossbow, a sling, and a rapier. If your opponent is 80ft away, shoot him with the light crossbow. If he's resistant to slashing/piecing, break him with a sling bullet. You'll typically draw daggers after the first light crossbow bolt. Though the daggers' damage is low, you're getting most of your damage from sneak attack anyway and the thrown and light properties are handy utilities to pair in a weapon. The rapier isn't a light weapon, so you can't throw a dagger and still sneak attack if you miss with your main hand. Until you get Dual Wielder or Crossbow Expert, or you literally can't miss with your first attack, you're probably better off with the short sword.
Tools: Thieves' Tools. Hardly comes up. When it does, it rarely needs a high check to overcome. Negligible after Reliable Talent. Don't Expertise this if you run published adventure modules. It's more satisfying to set off a trap with conjured elementals/animals than to disable them.
Saving Throws: Dexterity, Intelligence. There are few things more satisfying than surviving a dragon's breath attack unscathed through Evasion. On the other hand, I haven't rolled an Int save in 3 years of play.
Skills & Expertise: Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Athletics: Expertise. Grappling is immensely fun when paired with Cunning Dash and Mobile. With a foe grappled, you can move him 60ft before your turn ends.
Sleight of Hand: Expertise. Used by scoundrels everywhere to lift spell component pouches, McGuffins, quivers, weapons, Scying components... with Fast Hands, our rogue mugs his monsters while stabbing them for sneak attack damage.
Perception: Expertise. Take it because everyone else told you to. Now you'll catch them talking behind your back.
[Social Skill]: Deception is my favorite, but Intimidation and Persuasion are more ubiquitous.
Stealth: Even though Half-Plate applies disadvantage your checks, proficiency and Reliable talent keep you from being bad at this skill. That said, I don't like relying on monsters to fail their perception checks to setup a sneak attack. And familiars make better (RE: more disposable) scouts than rogues with high stealth checks.
Background: Charlatans is arguably the most useful background. False Identity helps you roleplay two characters more effectively, and though the effect is rarely game breaking. The Charlatan proficiencies are generally useful and also benefit from Reliable Talent. Note: many players fail to take advantage of class customization. Page 126 of the PHB frees you to mix and max skills, talents, and background features at your leisure. The Wanderer feature from the outlander comes to mind...
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Class Features
Sneak Attack: The limitations aren't that bad.
* It still requires finesse or ranged weapons
* An enemy of my enemy must be within 5ft or attack must otherwise be advantaged
* Can only be applied once per turn and once more on an reaction attack
Sneak attack will never deal as much theoretical damage as a Sleep or Fireball spell. As such, Sneak Attack often isn't the most impactful way to use your action. You can often swing a fight with a well timed Dodge in a crowded room. Dealing damage competes with Grapple checks, Sleight of Hand checks, and double Dash actions - and often those last 3 are more interesting.
Thieves' Cant: It's been forgotten in everything published since the Player's Handbook. But its such lovely fluff. Anything rated red that still ends up in your kit is opportunity for style points.
Cunning Action: Dash, Disengage, and Hide as a bonus action. Dash is your reward for a successful main hand sneak attack. A single target is refused opportunity attacks ale Mobile - which allows ample room for maneuvering. In play, it feels like using Action Surge every round.
Fast Hands: Cunning action extends to Use Object, Dexterity (Sleight of Hand), and Thieves' Tools to disarm a trap or open a lock. Check with your DM to see how Donning a Shield rules interact with Fast Hands and Use Object. Fast Hands is one of the funnest class features in the game. If you're not stealing something from a grappled monster, then you're tying a rope around your leg and throwing yourself over a cliff with him. Rogues are very good at tag - especially with the Mobile feat.
Second-Story Work: Your jump distance is extended by your Dex mod. You can easily jump 20ft by level 14. The climb speed is not to be underrated. Combining Mobile and Cunning Action lets you throw a rope 40ft, climb it, and fire a crossbow at a monster - all in the same turn.
Uncanny Dodge: 1/2 damage from one attack. I use this almost every time I have a reaction. Even though your AC is much higher than most rogues, you'll still get hit once or twice per turn with solid positioning. That isn't a bad thing - you don't have concentration saving throws to lose. And every hit point remaining at the end of an adventure is a hit point wasted.
Evasion: Save for Nothing / Fail for Half on dexterity saving throws, with catches. My whole adventuring party was one-shotted by a breath attack from an adult red dragon. Evasion + the Lucky is how I survived.
Supreme Sneak: With this and Reliable Talent, you're reasonably good at Stealth checks without Expertise. Even in Half-Plate armor...
Reliable talent: Treat rolls under 10 as 10 on proficient ability checks. Opposed checks are beastly with this. Reliable will go far with players that can apply as much pressure with skill check as with an attack.
Use Magic Device: When there are class restrictions on a magic item, the bonuses from the item are usually to a non-rogue class feature. Still, Use Magic Device is handy for fooling dungeon censors, and there are plenty of items requiring attunement by a spell caster. Magic scales very hard in D&D with levels, and rogues in particular benefit from the popular DC15 wands (paralysis, fireball, web, etc) and the freedom to cast scrolls from every class list.
Blindsense: 10ft doesn't amount to much by time you get this, but now you can't be suffocated in your sleep by an invisible stalker. Now no ambitious cutthroat can mug you blind in the middle of the night. Not without you noticing, anyway. Combining blindsight with Alert will save our plucky scoundrel a handful of HP over the course of an adventure. Some say I'm paranoid, but I've teased many demigods and omniscient beings; Blindsense and an Amulet of Proof Against Detection are how I sleep at night.
Slippery Mind: Wisdom Saving Throw. It amounts to a +5 bonus to Wisdom saving throws by time you get it, saving you more than a handful of Lucky rerolls over the course of your adventuring career.
Thief's Reflexes: If you dash, dash and move on both turns, you'll travel 240ft. (Assuming mobile) That's ~27mph and 5ft short of breaking the human speed record. There are certainly crazier ways to use this feature, but by know you know them. You can make even more out of this by stacking initiative.
Elusive: Nicer than it looks on paper. Advantage is everywhere at high levels. Blanket immunity to advantage will save you some HP and a few more uses of Lucky.
Stroke of Luck: Turn a missed attack or ability check into a success 1/rest. Your first and only exhaustible resource, besides Lucky and hit dice. And you don't see it until level 20.
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Feats
Moderately Armored: +1 to Strength or Dexterity, Medium Armor and Shield proficiency. Getting to 20 dex is hard and cost at least 2 ability score increases. Getting to 14 dex is easy and with one feat and 750 gold, you're suddenly sitting on 17 AC and an even (15+1) strength score. This burly brand of thief can also don a shield as a Fast Hands Use Object action.* So in a pinch, you're pushing 19 AC. Couple those numbers with the Dodge action and Uncanny Dodge reaction, and you have yourselves a legitimate tank.
Mobile: This should be a rogue class feature. I take the dash action more than sneak attack in 5E. Mobile adds 10ft and no difficult terrain issues. Combine with the climb speed of Second-Story work for maximum style points. This feat basically gives you a free action (Disengage) against at least one enemy every turn. You only have to attack to proc the free disengage, regardless if you hit and do damage.
Lucky: Rerolls are among the most powerful abilities in the game. Ask a Diviner or anyone holding Inspiration. Without Lucky, the rogue has nothing to manage besides HP, equipment, and actions. I find Lucky to be an adequate solution to this build's low wisdom and constitution saving throws. Though it's also useful for salvaging Sneak Attacks and winning vital ability checks. 3/day is enough for most adventures if you're judicious. Some checks are just more important than others. Think of this feat as as the Fighter's Indomitable class feature, except better in every way.
Shield Master: With Reliable Expert Athletics, our burly thief never really struggles to push opponents. As much as I like the style of pushing enemies on the ground or towards your allies, being a thief already comes with a ton of options that compete with your bonus action. The AC and Dex bonuses are completely redundant. Maybe grab this feat if you score a magic shield. Otherwise, keep the shield off until you need it and keep your off hand free to Sleight of Hand, Use Object, throw a dagger, or fire a crossbow.
Dual Wielder: Being able to draw/stow two weapons when before you could only draw one is arguably the coolest feature of this feat. Another +1 AC is nice. The ability to attack with your shield as an offhand improvised weapon - that's especially handy paired with the free disengages from mobile. Attacking with two rapiers can be handy, though nothing changes for ranged weapons and thrown weapons. You can easily get by without grabbing this, but it's useful across most of your bonus actions. At least until the magic items start rolling in, and you're backed into using them because they're better optimized...
Sharpshooter: With this build, we only attack with the off-hand if the main hand misses sneak attack. Choosing this feat practically forces you to commit your bonus action to firing an off-hand crossbow with a -5 to hit for +10 damage, regardless of whether you missed sneak attack. It's very effective, but isn't as much fun since the opportunity cost competes with Cunning Action and Fast Hands. However, Sharpshooter is incredibly potent on high dexterity builds. Anyone else, consider taking this feat to ignore cover and attack at obscene ranges.
Crossbow Expert: There is a ton of overlap between daggers and crossbows; generally you won't need to fire your crossbow more than once an encounter before breaking out the daggers. Of course, if you're getting sneak attack with your main hand shortsword, you rarely need to shoot your crossbow. As a free disengage, Mobile already allows a Thief to stab at someone with their main hand and step 10ft away to shoot their hand crossbow. The hand crossbow is a light weapon. It can already be fired as a bonus action if you're using another light weapon in your main hand. Only nab this feat if you find a rapier or other magic one-hander without the "light" property, but consider reaching for the Dual Wielder feat instead.
Alert: At 17th level, Thieves' Reflexes may benefit twice from the +5 bonus to initiative. More bonus actions and movement all around.
Healer: I'm among those who think the "As an action..." qualifier overrides the Use Object bonus action of Fast Hands. If I were your DM, I wouldn't allow you burn healing kits for HP as a bonus action - but yours might! Go ask.
Magic Initiate (Find Familiar): If it bothers you that you suffer from disadvantage on stealth checks, consider nabbing a bat or an owl familiar. When spotted, they're still basically just critters. Unlike you, they can be easily replaced. This is also your golden ticket to the bladesinger cantrips in the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide. Booming blade synergizes beautifully with the free disengage from Mobile.
Resilient (Constitution): As a rogue, you'll already get proficiency in half of all saving throws by level 16. I usually keep a Lucky roll around instead, for death saving throws and stinking clouds. If you plan on taking this feat, be sure to account for the odd +1 in your ability score increases.
Skilled: More skill proficiencies translates to more opportunities to abuse Reliable Talent.
Weapon Master: Net, Scimitar, Whip. If you find a magic item in one of these categories, grab this feat. Nets in particular are woefully underutilized in 5E. If your DM takes the "only one attack" rule to mean to mean one net attack, it may be the best weapon for your off-hand (with Dual Wielder).
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Multiclassing
Multiclassing: There's tons of value in multiclassing out of rogue. Sneak attack does plenty of single target damage for an at-will, but at high levels there are superior methods for wearing down a bad guy. Consider what 2 9th-level Wizards can do with one Wall of Force and one Conjure Elemental, for example. Then again, one of the primary reasons Thief is so appealing is their unique ability to cast scrolls and use magic items from any spell list, ale Use Magic. Their "spells known" rivals wizards in the strictest contexts of versatility. Level 17 is top notch way to get double actions. You'll need all of it to close the range on one well-equipped caster. Still, it's cool enough to hang around for a while.
Basically what I'm saying is there are much better guides for multiclassing. I'll come back to it later.
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Strategy and Tactics
It may help you defeat a dragon someday:
- Only strike when you have the upper hand and can afford the risk. You never want to use your offhand to attack on your turn unless you missed a sneak attack with your main-hand attack.
- There's nothing wrong with using a shortsword and a shield. Historically there was no shortsword. A few western traditions made the distinction between arming swords and longswords, bastard swords and zweihanders. But "shortsword" was not a common qualifier. If the visual of a shield with a shortsword bothers you aesthetically, start calling it an "arming sword" and ask your DM for inspiration.
- Using more than one weapon type or style opens up more opportunities to claim magic item certificates at conventions.
- Take advantage of the Dodge action. Especially if most of your monsters use melee attacks and you can position them for an ally's Fireball.
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Reserved until the world cracks open like a Champagne bottle off a freshly built cruise ship.
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Why did someone bother to put this in the "guides" section?
It is an entire guide based on a concept that only works if the DM lets you use an ability that specifically does not work in the game.
Donning and doffing a shield is an action not a use an object action.
This would be like me writing a guide on all the ways to maximize taking dual wielder so I can dual wield great swords.
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
StarStuff
[FONT=System]
- Actions: Attacking with Main-Hand Weapon (with sneak attack), Grappling, Breaking Stuff, Dashing, Dodging, Aiding Allies, Searching for Nearby Killswitches, Readying Actions, and Deceiving Monsters
- Bonus Actions: Attacking with Off-Hand Weapon (to salvage missed sneak attack), Using Cunning Action (Dash, Disengage, Hide, Use Object, Dexterity (Sleight of Hand), and Thieves' Tools to disarm a trap or open a lock), or Donning/Doffing a Shield (utilizing Fast Hands and Use Object)
- Reactions: Using Uncanny Dodge, striking with an AoO Sneak Attack, following a Readied action
- Movement: Climbing 40ft, Dashing over difficult terrain, and Disengaging from attacked target for free
- Defenses: 17 or 19 AC (tailored to circumstance), 1d8 HD, Evasion, Ranged Damage Options, Dexterity/Intelligence and eventually Wisdom Saving Throw Proficiencies
Yeah, you had me until that point. Donning/Doffing a shield isn't a use of the Use an Object action - it's specifically an action, as called out in the PHB, pg146 as part of the Getting Into and Out of Armor subheading.
EDIT: ninja'd! Well done, dudewithknives
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuulvheysoon
EDIT: ninja'd! Well done, dudewithknives
Ninja'd over a response to more than a year old thread. Well, that's an achievement.
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JackPhoenix
Ninja'd over a response to more than a year old thread. Well, that's an achievement.
Alas, this is what happens when you only read the OP and not any of the responses.:smalltongue:
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Other than emulating a video game, the shield portion (that doesn't work) isn't even part of the 5E's thief schtick - in an actual game, or more ironically, this guide.
The rest is pretty solid for playing a thug type thief. Heck, match this up with the 'Arcane Trickster-lite' thief guide floating around here, check for Use an Object incompatibilities and you have a really fun build that is pretty unique...
Basically, don't throw the baby out with the bath water just because the fluff doesn't match the drapes!
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Happy new year! And awesome guide @StarStuff , comprehensive, a fun tone, and a lot of great ideas for Thief subclass! I really appreciate the time and ingenuity it takes to contribute something like this to the community! I've had this guide open on my phone for a month now, re-reading and theorycrafting during downtime.
Re: Donning and Doffing shield as a use of Fast Hands. Sage Advice addresses this and says it is allowed. I can't post link because my account is new. Google "Could a fighter/thief use fast hands to don a shield?"
@lucas_brazell @JeremyECrawford Could a fighter/thief use fast hands to don a shield, free action to draw a weapon, and action to attack in a round?
@JeremyECrawford Yes. Nov 19, 2016
Taking a feat for +1 Str or Dex, Medium armor and Shield proficiency is smart. But multiclassing benefits are front loaded and ASIs/feats are sparse.
Benefit of Level 1 Barbarian, level X Rogue/Thief:
Start with 12 Hip Points, Medium Armor, Shield and Martial weapon proficiencies including whip (finesse with reach), Strength and Con saves, Rage twice per day (+2 damage, advantage on Strength checks like grappling, resistance to damage), and Unarmored Defense (potentially higher AC than medium armor).
Could go Rogue the rest of the way (Rogue ASIs at 8, 10, and 12 are tempting). However 2nd level in Barbarian gives Danger Sense (in combination with or instead of Evasion to make up for lack of Dex save proficiency) and Reckless Attack (at will Advantage). 3rd, 4th, and 5th level Barbarian all bring great abilities too (Bear Totem for half damage except pyschic, ASI at 4th, and a 2nd attack and movement increase at 5th).
A fighter dip is also nice for Armor, Shield, Weapon proficiencies and a fighting style.
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tatsuyashiba
Re: Donning and Doffing shield as a use of Fast Hands. Sage Advice addresses this and says it is allowed. I can't post link because my account is new.
I googled your quote and found the tweet:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...53392810745856
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tatsuyashiba
Happy new year! And awesome guide @StarStuff , comprehensive, a fun tone, and a lot of great ideas for Thief subclass! I really appreciate the time and ingenuity it takes to contribute something like this to the community! I've had this guide open on my phone for a month now, re-reading and theorycrafting during downtime.
Thank you. <3 I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tatsuyashiba
Taking a feat for +1 Str or Dex, Medium armor and Shield proficiency is smart. But multiclassing benefits are front loaded and ASIs/feats are sparse.
Benefit of Level 1 Barbarian, level X Rogue/Thief:
Start with 12 Hip Points, Medium Armor, Shield and Martial weapon proficiencies including whip (finesse with reach), Strength and Con saves, Rage twice per day (+2 damage, advantage on Strength checks like grappling, resistance to damage), and Unarmored Defense (potentially higher AC than medium armor).
Could go Rogue the rest of the way (Rogue ASIs at 8, 10, and 12 are tempting). However 2nd level in Barbarian gives Danger Sense (in combination with or instead of Evasion to make up for lack of Dex save proficiency) and Reckless Attack (at will Advantage). 3rd, 4th, and 5th level Barbarian all bring great abilities too (Bear Totem for half damage except pyschic, ASI at 4th, and a 2nd attack and movement increase at 5th).
A fighter dip is also nice for Armor, Shield, Weapon proficiencies and a fighting style.
Everything you said here is entirely correct. Incidentally, I find the straight barbarian with no feats fits a similar niche as a weapons juggler; they also have no opportunity costs for switching between two-handed and two-weapon fighting styles.
I'd favor the single barbarian level if I weren't so stubbornly opposed to multiclassing. :P It's arguably of higher value than the rogue capstone.
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Even ignoring the shield shenanigans this is a great guide for a Strength based Rogue. It gives me ideas other than just shooting people with a bow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
StarStuff
I'd favor the single barbarian level if I weren't so stubbornly opposed to multiclassing. :P It's arguably of higher value than the rogue capstone.
It is nice to know this character can be done without multi classing but for me the extra armour, shield and weapon proficiency for a single level of Barbarian or Fighter seem worth the cost of delaying the Rogue features by one level. Fighters style also gives an extra point of AC.
Re: StarStuff's Thief Guide
Mödley Crüe: This thread says "He's not dead yet."
