Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anteros
I'll agree that some characters get dropped. That happens in every story.
No, it doesn't. Main characters got dropped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anteros
Why should minor, unimportant characters take screen time from the protagonist? This is a common complaint, because people like Chad. Well, too bad. Chad is a minor character. The plot isn't about him. He serves his purpose as a supporting character from time to time and then disappears. Ishida will play a larger role in this arc. You just have to remember that it's a work in progress, and that there is still plenty of story to come. Will it be as big of a role as some people want? Probably not. Again. Supporting character.
You seem to misunderstand. Exaggerated protagonism is part of the problem. Why would you even introduce this characters, if you're not going to use them? Kubo has been on record for this - that's just how he writes. Writer's block? More characters. And that is an awful solution, it just clutters up the character roster and makes things more confusing. If Kubo would just leave the supporting character be support characters that would be fine, but he drags them on the spotlight for a second then throws them away without even using them for anything. He foreshadows Mashiro being important ("she can keep the mask longer than any of us") and she does nothing. He spends two pages on a spread showing us Kensei's bankai... and Kensei never actually uses his bankai for anything. I could go on and on. It happens all the time. Kubo is flying by the seat of his pants and it shows and most of the time it simply goes wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anteros
Complaining about power ups in a shonen manga? Sorry that you don't enjoy something that's a staple of the entire genre. Maybe shonen isn't for you.
First of all: shounen is not a genre, it's a demographic. No such things as power-ups in Lucky Star, Eyeshield 21, Bakuman, Death Note or Barefoot Gen.
However, I'll consider you're talking about shounen action series inspired from Hokuto no Ken. Power-ups are not a staple of this genre, specially it being overused like they are in Bleach. The only other examples I can think of are Dragonball Z and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. You're free to list any others. Bobobobobobobo is a parody so it does not count, of course. In fact, power-ups are much more a staple of mahou shoujo than shounen action.
What most shounen action does have is a character becoming more powerful and learning more techniques, some of them give him a big advantage at great cost. That's what happens with Luffy's Gears or with Naruto using the Kyuubi's chakra and with sage mode. There are a lot more shounen action series that lack power ups (or have them show up only once, keeping it significant): Hokuto no Ken, Level E, Flame of Recca, Lost Canvas, Hunter x Hunter, MÄR, AirGear, Fairy Tail, Yu Yu Hakusho, Saint Seiya, Shurato... the list goes on.
Lastly but actually the most important, the problem is not using power-ups, it's how you use it. Bleach battles are just a dispute of "mine is bigger than yours" and that is simply lazy storytelling, which is exactly the same way Dragonball Z jumped the shark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anteros
As for ret-conning...the only example of ret-conning I can think of is the origin of Chad's powers...and really...Chad is such a minor character that it's hardly plot critical anyway.
There was a lot of retconning going around. Ichigo's dad having powers, Ishida getting his powers back, Aizen being the mastermind behind everything, Rukia and the hogyouku, the list goes on.
Even valid plot progression might seem like retcons unless you foreshadow it beforehand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anteros
By the way, Bleach is insanely successful.
I think you're a bit wrong there. Bleach was insanely successful. The anime was cancelled (and replaced by Rock Lee's wacky series) and the sales are falling. In fact, Shounen Jump is in kind of a creative crisis. Dig around for interviews and you'll see people mentioning they are afraid of One Piece ending, because Jump might lose it's #1 spot.
2009
Spoiler
Show
*1, 2,057,528 One Piece vol.53
*2, 1,963,696 One Piece vol.54
*3, 1,952,551 One Piece vol.52
*4, 1,810,410 One Piece vol.55
*5, 1,505,575 NANA vol.21
*6, 1,277,733 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.23
*7, 1,271,340 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.21
*8, 1,238,354 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.22
*9. 1,222,356 Naruto vol.45
10, 1,186,478 Naruto vol.47
11, 1,184,722 Nodame Cantabile vol.22
12, 1,119,917 Naruto vol.46
13, *,996,398 Naruto vol.48
14, *,955,085 Bleach vol.36
15, *,944,066 Bleach vol.37
16, *,888,622 Bleach vol.38
17, *,879,612 Saint Young Men vol.3
18, *,850,059 Bleach vol.40
19, *,841,028 Bleach vol.39
20, *.790,656 Kimi ni Todoke vol.8
21, *,741,831 Kimi ni Todoke vol.9
22, *,738,404 Bleach vol.41
23, *,692,649 Saint Young Men vol.4
24, *,659,512 Kuro****suji vol.6
25, *,642,263 Detective Conan vol.64
Bleach shows up at #14.
2010
Spoiler
Show
*1, 2,593,580 One Piece vol.59
*2, 2,578,730 One Piece vol.57
*3, 2,557,356 One Piece vol.58
*4, 2,492,183 One Piece vol.60
*5, 2,480,124 One Piece vol.56
*6, 1,340,772 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.25
*7, 1,298,292 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.24
*8, 1,241,997 Nodame Cantabile vol.24
*9, 1,214,468 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.26
10, 1,211,849 Naruto vol.49
11, 1,200,432 Naruto vol.50
12, 1,194,176 Naruto vol.52
13, 1,148,107 Kimi ni Todoke vol.10
14, 1,145,107 Naruto vol.51
15, 1,134,992 Kimi ni Todoke vol.11
16, 1,083,258 Kimi ni Todoke vol.12
17, 1,030,345 Naruto vol.53
18, *,968,112 Nodame Cantabile vol.24
19, *,941,550 Hunter x Hunter vol.27
20, *,885,784 Saint Young Men vol.5
21, *,842,401 Neon Genesis Evangelion vol.12
22, *,822,401 Bleach vol.42
23, *,780,241 Bleach vol.44
24, *,769,697 Bleach vol.45
25, *,769,271 Bleach vol.46
Bleach shows up at #22.
2011
Spoiler
Show
*1, 3,382,588 One Piece vol.61
*2, 3,207,568 One Piece vol.62
*3, 3,073,175 One Piece vol.63
*4, 2,652,700 One Piece vol.64
*5, 1,229,170 Naruto vol.54
*6, 1,228,692 Kimi ni Todoke vol.13
*7, 1,189,589 Kimi ni Todoke vol.14
*8, 1,144,295 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.27
*9, 1,131,672 Naruto vol.55
10, 1,090,567 Naruto vol.57
11, 1,060,121 Naruto vol.56
12, 1,043,782 Hunter x Hunter vol.29
13, 1,011,766 Hunter x Hunter vol.28
14, 1,009,965 Saint Young Men vol.6
15, 1,000,071 Nodame Cantabile vol.25
16, *,933,239 Naruto vol.58
17, *,895,268 Shingeki no Kyojin vol.3
18, *,845,791 Bleach vol.48
19, *,824,872 Saint Young Men vol.7
20, *,800,037 Ao no Exorcist vol.6
21, *,788,496 Ao no Exorcist vol.5
22, *,795,573 Ao no Exorcist vol.7
23, *,786,660 One Piece vol.60
24, *,772,412 Shingeki no Kyojin vol.4
25, *,734,548 Ao no Exorcist vol.1
Bleach is at #18.
But that's volume sales, you say. How about by series? Well...
2010
Spoiler
Show
*1, 32,343,809 One Piece
*2, *7,409,068 Naruto
*3, *6,572,813 Kimi ni Todoke
*4, *5,739,526 Fairy Tail
*5, *5,204,193 Bleach
*6, *5,165,052 Fullmetal Alchemist
*7, *3,978,439 Gintama
*8, *3,479,219 Katekyo Hitman Reborn!
*9, *3,269,379 Nurarihyon no Mago
10, *3,246,355 Nodame Cantabile
2011
Spoiler
Show
*1, 37,996,373 One Piece
*2, *6,874,840 Naruto
*3, *5,223,712 Ao no Exorcist
*4, *4,701,596 Fairy Tail
*5, *4,665,634 Toriko
*6, *4,415,491 Gintama
*7, *4,399,938 Bakuman
*8, *4,187,258 Bleach
*9, *4,109,481 Kimi ni Todoke
10, *4,056,981 Gantz
11, *3,766,194 Shingeki no Kyojin
12, *3,157,012 SKET Dance
13, *2,922,876 Hunter x Hunter
14, *2,853,552 Nurarihyon no Mago
15, *2,607,474 Beelzebub
16, *2,597,768 Saint Young Men
17, *2,550,542 Katekyo Hitman Reborn!
18, *2,464,282 Giant Killing
19, *2,120,091 Detective Conan
20, *1,853,198 Deadman Wonderland
21, *1,848,586 Fullmetal Alchemist
22, *1,800,132 Uchuu Kyoudai
23, *1,739,105 Ahiru no Sora
24, *1,712,983 Kuroko no Basket
25, *1,711,607 Ace of Diamond
Consistently behind the non-Jump series Fairy Tail. The Big Three have changed and they have changed long ago. Bleach has been falling farther and farther behind, year after year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anteros
If you truly don't think you could do worse...go do it. Congratulations on your impending fame and fortune! I look forward to reading it. Then again, maybe it's easier to tear things down than it is to create something great.
That is a logical fallacy if I ever saw one. You can't criticize a work unless you can do better? :smallconfused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anteros
Also, I'm loathe to do so...but I have to defend Twilight here. Objectively, is it well written? Not in my opinion. However, it does achieve it's primary goal...which is to entertain a certain demographic. Thus, yes it is well constructed. Even if we personally don't like it.
You're absolutely correct here. This point simply does not apply to Bleach, though.