Sell me on Rogues

Alright, I'm about to start playing in what will be my 2nd ever 3.5 game. My issue is I don't know many classes and the party seems to have filled all but the Rogue role.

The level 10 party consists of

• A Fairy/Pixie(Not sure of race) Favored Soul focusing on melee and buffing/healing (As optimized as this combination can be apparently)

• A Gnomish Bard/Mindbender/Lyric Thaumaturge who is the party face and focusing on buffing and some debuffs (Mid level optimization)

• A dwarven Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/Fist of the Forests/Deepwarden/Frostrager (Don't ask me why but apparently it can VERY hard)

• A Wizard/incantrix/warweaver focusing on buffs and some nasty AoE spells

So my issue is that it seems only a rogue could really fit in here without stepping on anyone else's toes but I have never played a rogue and only seen a rather bland, run around and stab things in the back while losing in damage to an unoptimized fighter type of rogue which doesn't seem all that fun. I am more than open to playing any other class that would fit into this party without showing someone up, and the DM has expressed some concern over not having any reliable ranged damage beyond AoE spells.
The restritictions on creating this character are no Exalted, no psionics, no BoVD, and only 3.5 material.

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Originally Posted by Librarian_Conan

Alright, I'm about to start playing in what will be my 2nd ever 3.5 game. My issue is I don't know many classes and the party seems to have filled all but the Rogue role.

The level 10 party consists of

• A Fairy/Pixie(Not sure of race) Favored Soul focusing on melee and buffing/healing (As optimized as this combination can be apparently)

• A Gnomish Bard/Mindbender/Lyric Thaumaturge who is the party face and focusing on buffing and some debuffs (Mid level optimization)

• A dwarven Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/Fist of the Forests/Deepwarden/Frostrager (Don't ask me why but apparently it can VERY hard)

• A Wizard/incantrix/warweaver focusing on buffs and some nasty AoE spells

So my issue is that it seems only a rogue could really fit in here without stepping on anyone else's toes but I have never played a rogue and only seen a rather bland, run around and stab things in the back while losing in damage to an unoptimized fighter type of rogue which doesn't seem all that fun. I am more than open to playing any other class that would fit into this party without showing someone up, and the DM has expressed some concern over not having any reliable ranged damage beyond AoE spells.
The restritictions on creating this character are no Exalted, no psionics, no BoVD, and only 3.5 material.

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Well there are a few things you can do. You can still do a ranged rogue, which requires a heavy feat tax, with hand cross bows. Ick. You can be a ranger as a base also and take an ACF that replaces your tracking with trap finding and disabling them, which is helpful, since you get ranged archery thanks to one of your focuses, and you can still use some spells if you are more comfortable with this role, which it seems you might be.

A rogue though can be very focused in one of a few areas. Party face as well, since they get all the cha based influential skills. Or they can be stealth based and the party scout. Also if you do go rogue look in City scape for the penetrating strike feature. Allows you to sneak attack anything that is normally immune to sneak attack. Only time it cant be is if it can't be flanked, which can then also be solved in most instances by the darkstalker feat.

So the big question now becomes what are you most comfortable with, a few spells ala ranger, or more spell casting thus putting you more in touch with a beguiler role?

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Originally Posted by HunterColt22

Well there are a few things you can do. You can still do a ranged rogue, which requires a heavy feat tax, with hand cross bows. Ick. You can be a ranger as a base also and take an ACF that replaces your tracking with trap finding and disabling them, which is helpful, since you get ranged archery thanks to one of your focuses, and you can still use some spells if you are more comfortable with this role, which it seems you might be.

A rogue though can be very focused in one of a few areas. Party face as well, since they get all the cha based influential skills. Or they can be stealth based and the party scout. Also if you do go rogue look in City scape for the penetrating strike feature. Allows you to sneak attack anything that is normally immune to sneak attack. Only time it cant be is if it can't be flanked, which can then also be solved in most instances by the darkstalker feat.

So the big question now becomes what are you most comfortable with, a few spells ala ranger, or more spell casting thus putting you more in touch with a beguiler role?

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As far as going mainly Ranger would a swift hunter scout/ranger build be best?
Also, what would the beguiler look like as a build? Just straight beguiler with a focus on maxing out the disable device?

Swift hunter is truly dependent again on what you want to do. Your favored enemy helps by pass the normal immunities of not getting precision damage on enemies which is also a boon. And again tacking the ACF that replaces tracking with trapfinding and also adds disable device to your lists then allows you to trade away the second trapfinding feature you get from one of those classes for other goodies. Also swift hunter builds allow you to get that precision damage on full attacks easier because the feat tax is reduced thanks to the ranger combat styles if you take archery.

Also beguiler can be found in the phb2. Often its build is almost straight beguiler with a sprinkling in a prc with easy entry reqs at level 7 to delay your advance learning by a spell caster level to get access to higher spells, mind bender is the preferred dip as far as I know.

Personally I love rogues and have an idea in my head to do a rogue3/spelltheif17 with the darkstalker feat and penatrating strike ACF from cityscape for rogues that needs trapsense to be traded away. Granted I lose the capstone for spell thief and am unable to steal 9th lvl spells, but now I can steal spells from anything under the sun that except when it is immune to flanking via non all around seeing. :/

The power level of your party seems very high - if you go Rogue you will likely feel outclassed by the others. All those PrCs suggest to me that you're at mid-high levels as well, which is well into the period where rogues drop off.

I suggest a more castery rogue, like a Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper, so you can sneak around but still pull off some powerful moves to shine in such a group. Or consider Chameleon to be a great "5th-man" or Factotum with Font of Inspiration to just be a super rogue.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Or consider Chameleon to be a great "5th-man" or Factotum with Font of Inspiration to just be a super rogue.

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I'd definitely recommend Factotum/Chameleon. Basically, each of your teammates has a decent number of things they can do, and then you can do everything else. Awesomely.

You have three buff casters. Who are they going to buff? Are they all buffing the Barbarian? Give them another slice of delicious toast to spread their tasty Nutella of buffs on. I would suggest a Druid. You are two bodies by your lonesome, and can produce many more at a whim. While individually, none of your summons are as strong as the Barbarian, they can bodily block bad guys from getting to the casters, flank with the Barbarian, absorb the extra Haste targets that would otherwise be wasted, etc. You also get access to a massive swathe of divine spells that your party is really lacking.

Yeah, with a regular Rogue in that party, you'll feel like BMX Bandit at the Angel Summoner Convention.

So... listen to these guys, you'll want some spells. Or maybe go Swordsage.

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Originally Posted by Flickerdart

You also get access to a massive swathe of divine spells that your party is really lacking.

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Well, they do have a Favored Soul, which is why I didn't suggest a divine caster myself. Yeah he has limited spells known, but he can at least rely on scrolls for the utility stuff.

Though a Chameleon could fill in as a divine caster as well.

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Originally Posted by Sith_Happens

I'd definitely recommend Factotum/Chameleon. Basically, each of your teammates has a decent number of things they can do, and then you can do everything else. Awesomely.

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I'll second this. It's an entertaining combo in itself and it'll let you get a feel for the different roles you can play without having to regularly swap characters.

Though, like someone else said, there's a lot of buffing going on there with few targets to buff. An optimized summoner wizard or a Dread Necromancer minionmancer could be fun. Give all those buffers critters to buff, then stand back and watch the carnage while the dwarf leads the charge and your minions follow.

A rogue looks a bit superfluous in this party.
The Ranger can do all of the scouting, and the Wizard can deal with the traps.

I do note though, that this party is lacking a Druid. This would allow you to be competitive, and your Cute Natural Allies Cannon Fodder can set off the traps.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

The power level of your party seems very high - if you go Rogue you will likely feel outclassed by the others. All those PrCs suggest to me that you're at mid-high levels as well, which is well into the period where rogues drop off.

I suggest a more castery rogue, like a Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper, so you can sneak around but still pull off some powerful moves to shine in such a group.

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I support the above commentary.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Well, they do have a Favored Soul, which is why I didn't suggest a divine caster myself. Yeah he has limited spells known, but he can at least rely on scrolls for the utility stuff.

Though a Chameleon could fill in as a divine caster as well.

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If the Favored Soul is a Pixie, then his spells are going to be really far behind the curve, and he still can't make extra bodies. Plus, scrolls won't give him access to the Druid only spells.

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Originally Posted by Flickerdart

If the Favored Soul is a Pixie, then his spells are going to be really far behind the curve, and he still can't make extra bodies. Plus, scrolls won't give him access to the Druid only spells.

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Is there anything that's Druid-only that they'd need? Maybe Reincarnate...

I agree the Pixie's LA would hurt though, so divine caster is a viable option, if the OP wants to be one.

If you didn't want to go caster you could do rogue4/ranger2/dread commando5/nightsong enforcer9. 19BAB, good skills, some passive buffs, sneak attack+sudden strike damage. Good flanker/skirmish fighter.

Could also do roguex/warbladeY/Bloodclaw Master2/PRCxxx

I am always going to +1 an unseen seer build. They are just too much fun.

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Originally Posted by Sith_Happens

I'd definitely recommend Factotum/Chameleon. Basically, each of your teammates has a decent number of things they can do, and then you can do everything else. Awesomely.

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This. If you want to fill in the cracks where your party might be lacking something, the factotum(Dungeonscape)/chameleon(Races of Destiny) is probably the best. Trapfinding, divine and arcane spell casting up to 5th level by level 20(which you can pick and change at an accelerated rate, none of this 8 hours of rest junk), INT to all skill checks, INT to DEX and STR checks(initiative and combat stuff like trip attempts), AND you can pretty much know and can effectively use literally any skill.

Honorable mention to beguiler, which is a very effective and useful caster, is more powerful, but will NEVER be as versatile as the factotum/chameleon.

I would ask youd DM if he would allow the Carmendine Monk (champions of valor 28) of the Kung fu genius (Dragon #319 or Dragon compendium) feats to work for a swordsage. If so i would go for something along the lines of:
Human Swashbuckler 4 / Rogue 3 / Swordsage 3 (I prefer this over Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler 3 for the Fort save boost)

1: Swashbuckler => Kung fu genius, Two weapon fighting (human), Weapon finesse (Bonus)
2: Rogue
3: Swashbuckler => Daring outlaw
4: Rogue
5: Swordsage => Be sure to select a shadow hand stance
6: Rogue => Shadow blade - Grab the penetrating strike ACF from dungeonscape
7: Swashbuckler
8: Swordsage => Grab the "assassin's stance" stance from shadow hand.
9: Swordsage => Improved two weapon fighting
10: Swashbuckler (Or rogue)

Highlights:
BAB +7, Base saves +6/+7/+5, 70+(int*13) skill points, 10+3d10+3d8+3d6+(con*10) HPs
4d6+2d6 sneak attack (2d6+1d6 against sneak-attack immune targets you flank)
Dex to hit and damage (replaces strenght, not halved for offhand attacks)
Int to damage (precision)
Int to AC in light or no armor
Evasion

Assuming 32 PB i would go:
Str 8
Dex 16+2 (levels)
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 12

With +1, martial disipline (shadow hand) daggers, a +4 Dex item and a +2 Int one your full attack routine against a flanked target would look like: +17/+17/+12/+12 for 1d4+10+6d6. Not bad at all.

From there i would progress with the 4th swordsage level, then either with Swashbuckler for more SA, Swordsage for better manouvers, or a mix of both. Grav the Craven feat at level 12 (or earlier if you are allowed flaws)

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Originally Posted by HunterColt22

Swift hunter is truly dependent again on what you want to do. Your favored enemy helps by pass the normal immunities of not getting precision damage on enemies which is also a boon. And again tacking the ACF that replaces tracking with trapfinding and also adds disable device to your lists then allows you to trade away the second trapfinding feature you get from one of those classes for other goodies. Also swift hunter builds allow you to get that precision damage on full attacks easier because the feat tax is reduced thanks to the ranger combat styles if you take archery.

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Complete Adventurer Errata

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Page 11: Scout’s Class Skills
Add Disable Device to the scout’s list of class skills.
(This addition fits with the flavor of the class.)

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Here is a basic Swift Hunter Archer build. Also there is this guide: The Swift Hunter's Handbook

Spoiler

Show

Any LA +0 Race
1. Scout - Point Blank Shot
2. Scout
3. Scout - Precise Shot
4. Ranger - Arcane Hunter ACF, B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter
6. Scout - Nemesis, Darkstalker, Dead Eye or *Combat Reflexes
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Ranger - B: Endurance
9. Ranger - Distracting Attack ACF, Sword of the Arcane Order or *Ranged Threat (or any of the other feats not taken at level 6)
10. Ranger
11. Ranger - B: Manyshot
12. Ranger - Greater Manyshot
13. Ranger
14. Ranger - Spell Reflection ACF
15. Ranger - Practiced Spellcaster
16. Ranger - B: Improved Precise Shot
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - Improved Skirmish
19. Ranger
20. Ranger

If Human for race: move Precise Shot up to first and take Dead Eye or Darkstalker at 3rd. Another option would be to take Educated at 1st and Knowledge Devotion at 6th.

Rogues and even optimized scouts, swift hunters and so on do fight much worse. Their remaining combat abilities are tumble and tumble. The main draw of rogues are skills. I love skills, but I've been a bit jaded when DMs don't bother with them much or mess with their rules until they're useless. Use magic device has some utility uses between combat but it's too unreliable for combat until high levels. What you really need to ask yourself is what the DM and campaign world are like. If it's all hack and slash then stop right there and play whatever you want; your party doesn't need a nonexistent role. If you need a trap finder then that only requires 1 level of rogue. If you think in your DM's world you could find uses for even unusual & weak skills like forgery to disrupt the non-railroady plot then embrace heaven and make a rogue (or ranger or scout or etc.).