League of Legends XXXIII: Game of Mundo

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Originally Posted by SweetRein

Preliminary:
Dada appears to be the winner. Most notably for the Ahri CC bug.

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I'm glad I was able to dig something useful up :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Psyborg

Firstly, congrats to Dada on all the bugs.

Secondly, I want to comment on this one:


I'm wondering if this is related to Alpha Strike's treatment of targeted projectile spells (specifically, alpha striking while said spells are in flight pops the projectiles visually, but they "hit" and their effects are applied when the alpha strike ends). If there's any delay at all between "determination of hit" and "application of effects" for skillshot snares (and presumably other skillshots), then it's possible for Alpha Strike to go off in between, and the effects end up being applied after landing, just like a targeted projectile (which is, generally speaking, determined to hit as soon as it's fired).

This could be confirmed by testing with Fiora's ult. Unlike Alpha Strike, Blade Waltz pops projectiles both visually and mechanically, allowing her to, for example, evade Sion and Taric stuns, or any of a laundry list of spells. If the odd interaction proves impossible to replicate with Blade Waltz, then the above hypothesis (delay between determination of hit and application of effects by server, Alpha Strike going off in between) is probably correct.

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Sadly I don't own Fiora, which is why I didn't test that. I assumed that Yi was untargetable while alpha-striking and thus should be immune to effects during the animation - If that is wrong, then this is not a bug. The most likely explanation is probably latency correction - if the snare hits on Lux's end but is dodged on Yi's, then the game somehow has to decide what actually happens. Thinking about this, I am not actually sure if there is a decent way of ensuring either-or atomicity if the clients are responsible for determining whether a skill hits.

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Originally Posted by Kaun

stuck in elo hell!!!!

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There are two ways to get out of "elo hell":

1) Play enough games that whatever statistic anomaly is keeping you down evens out
2) Take responsibility for lost games instead of blaming them on your team. Always consider how you, personally, could have made a bigger impact.

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Originally Posted by Dada

There are two ways to get out of "elo hell":

1) Play enough games that whatever statistic anomaly is keeping you down evens out
2) Take responsibility for lost games instead of blaming them on your team. Always consider how you, personally, could have made a bigger impact.

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Way number 3: Have a friend whose ELO is much higher and queue with them in the hopes that they can carry you higher.

EDIT: Way number 4: Don't play Ranked. Optional: Get better* so that, if you feel like going back to Ranked, you can carry up to good ELO.

*I mean getting better at the game, not just the mechanics i.e. team communication, keeping a cool head, tactical analysis, etc.

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Originally Posted by Dada

Sadly I don't own Fiora, which is why I didn't test that. I assumed that Yi was untargetable while alpha-striking and thus should be immune to effects during the animation - If that is wrong, then this is not a bug. The most likely explanation is probably latency correction - if the snare hits on Lux's end but is dodged on Yi's, then the game somehow has to decide what actually happens. Thinking about this, I am not actually sure if there is a decent way of ensuring either-or atomicity if the clients are responsible for determining whether a skill hits.

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I actually suspect that Alpha Strike doesn't pop projectiles/effects as a natural part of it; I've noticed that if you have a targeted stun incoming, and Alpha Strike, you get stunned as soon as you fall out of untargetability. Wouldn't surprise me if there are a few frames where he can get hit by a disabling skillshot during his casting animation and still go into Alpha Strike. As it is, we get weird stuff like "start Alpha Strike animation, target goes out of sight, Alpha Strike cancelled"

Ok, so - Udyr is free, and I picked him up. He's all sorts of fun, but I'm slightly hazy on his mechanics. How, for instance, is one supposed to cycle his stances? I pick phoenix for jungle and tiger for lane - but what should be my second stance for either? Turtle? Bear?

I go Phoenix -> Turtle -> Bear-> Tiger, myself, when jungling him.

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Originally Posted by Acromos

Ok, so - Udyr is free, and I picked him up. He's all sorts of fun, but I'm slightly hazy on his mechanics. How, for instance, is one supposed to cycle his stances? I pick phoenix for jungle and tiger for lane - but what should be my second stance for either? Turtle? Bear?

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Phoenix/Tiger>Turtle>Bear(Get 2 points earlyish, though)> The other of Phoenix/Tiger.

You can't level up all of Udyr's skills to level 5, so most people just take 3 points in Bear and level the rest of his skills to 5. Remember his stance dance: 3 hits for Phoenix proc and his tiger stance DoT/ASpd can be preloaded into a bear stance stun. The first is important for jungling and the second is important for ganking.

Personally, I don't have a preference for Udyr. Lack of a gap closer means the target has to be overextended and not Lee Sin. Red buff is also likely a necessity. Udyr farms the jungle superbly, but I don't have the foresight to gank well. Just, like, all his ganks get shut down by CC, even soft CC and it's usually not worth it to flash-bear unless your teammate is in a really good position.

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Originally Posted by Arbitrarity

I actually suspect that Alpha Strike doesn't pop projectiles/effects as a natural part of it; I've noticed that if you have a targeted stun incoming, and Alpha Strike, you get stunned as soon as you fall out of untargetability.

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Correct. Alpha Strike is not trollpool (thank <higher power of choice>). Yes, you are untargetable during the animation, but any projectiles already inbound are, at best, delayed until the animation ends. (There are a few non-projectile effects that can be dodged with Alpha Strike- notably Requiem.)

Blade Waltz actually does pop projectiles.

Also, regarding this thread (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2086471) and the codes IronStylus has been putting in his posts (all in the form Ysereh X = Z or Ysereh X = Za where X is a number and Z is a letter. Ysereh is heresy backwards. So far, we have, "The sun always sets <"a codes" start; new sentence/line?> To hide all its")...what are the Playground's theories?

I think there are two basic possibilities:
1. Something Leona-related. I mean come on, it's IronStylus.
2. Stealth Rework. Given how dang long it's been and how worked up people are, I can totally see IS doing something this...involved and planned out in advance to build up to it.

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Originally Posted by Boowells

You can't level up all of Udyr's skills to level 5, so most people just take 3 points in Bear and level the rest of his skills to 5. Remember his stance dance: 3 hits for Phoenix proc and his tiger stance DoT/ASpd can be preloaded into a bear stance stun. The first is important for jungling and the second is important for ganking.

Personally, I don't have a preference for Udyr. Lack of a gap closer means the target has to be overextended and not Lee Sin. Red buff is also likely a necessity. Udyr farms the jungle superbly, but I don't have the foresight to gank well. Just, like, all his ganks get shut down by CC, even soft CC and it's usually not worth it to flash-bear unless your teammate is in a really good position.

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Hmm, really? I always thought the norm for a level 18 Udyr was five in phoenix /or/ tiger, three in whichever you don't max, and five in each Turtle and Bear, but I haven't played him much for a while.

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Originally Posted by Neoseanster

Hmm, really? I always thought the norm for a level 18 Udyr was five in phoenix /or/ tiger, three in whichever you don't max, and five in each Turtle and Bear, but I haven't played him much for a while.

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That's how I run him. 5 points in bear is a good idea, since it makes you really sticky. Udyr's main problem is getting kited, and bear really helps with that.

My understanding is you want to max phoenix and leave tiger at 3. This is due to the fact that the main scaling of tiger stance does not come from skill points, but from items. Since you will be using both stances in a fight, you will gain more by having extra ranks in phoenix, even if you itemize for tiger stance.

Hmm... had two of the worst matches I've ever had today. Mostly my fault, partly the game, and partly the people I was playing with.

Just some ranting I want to do, but in spoilers, so as not to be in anyones way, since its unlikely to be of interest to anyone.

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First game, I'm first in lobby, select Morde and someone picks Warwick, next person instalocks Vlad without saying anything, and the last two pick Ezreal and Pantheon. Pantheon doesn't want to jungle, and I want to play Morde, so I decide to jungle him again. Countdown finishes, and I'm stuck at the character select screen. The game client doesn't load. I sigh, shut the game, and start it up again and try to reconnect to the game it says has already started. Game client fails to load again. I close it and reopen it and try to reconnect another three or four times before I actually get to the client loading screen. When I made it into the game, people were shouting (Or capsing or flaming whatever you want to call it) at me about how slow my computer was. I got flustered as I only got into the game at 1:40 picked boots and E, as opposed to cloth and Q, and completely screwed up my first clear. Game picked up from there though, except for the Vlad continuing to whine at me for having picked a "Mid char" when he had said he was going mid (he didn't). I farmed as best I could, ganked and scored a few kills, but the whole game the Vlad was saying the game was 3 v 7 (Since our Kog didn't have a positive k:d ratio). The other team won fair and square, and we surrendered after kog d/cd, probably due to the vlad.

I think, ok, that was pretty horrible, but I'll just play another game, and it'll get better, right? Next game I got to play Morde top. Lost early game hard against a Teemo, despite each death being very close and having almost killed teemo and got called a feeder all game by my team, including a mid and jungler who were clearly premade (Matching name/clan tag and the jungler sat in mid bushes all game and didn't come near me). It got too much for me by the time I was 1/6/3 my internet connection went, I just gave up and decided it wasn't worth reconnecting. I'll probably be reported, but I don't really care. Its the type of game I would punish me for, and I wouldn't blame anyone for reporting me.

I might try another game later, but it's led me to a conclusion: While I enjoy the game, i mostly just enjoy trying out new champs. There's none that I really excell at. I play a decent Fizz, and a few ok-ish ad carries, but there's no character I'd be convinced I could ever carry a game as.

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Originally Posted by Neoseanster

Hmm, really? I always thought the norm for a level 18 Udyr was five in phoenix /or/ tiger, three in whichever you don't max, and five in each Turtle and Bear, but I haven't played him much for a while.

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This is my experience as well. As Phoenix stance jungle Udyr, Tiger is almost entirely worthless for anything but pushing towers, where you stancedance between Tiger/Phoenix.

For both of them, there are situations where you might want to use the other in a fight, but they're few and far between because of how often you need Turtle/Bear stance utility. More often than not you have time for one Tiger stance double-proc and one full phoenix stance rotation before you need to stun somebody, etc.

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Originally Posted by Anonomuss

I might try another game later, but it's led me to a conclusion: While I enjoy the game, i mostly just enjoy trying out new champs. There's none that I really excell at. I play a decent Fizz, and a few ok-ish ad carries, but there's no character I'd be convinced I could ever carry a game as.

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Try going back to some champ you enjoyed previously. I've just played a couple of games as Blitz - whom I played a lot a long time ago then shelved - and both games were excellent, and good fun.

Same for Shen, who was my first main that I picked up again recently. I've been doing very well indeed with him on TT.

EDIT: Just had another excellent game with Blitz. After being behind by 20+ kills, because our Brand dc'd at start, we crawled back once he got back on. He turned out to be an admirable player, and despite being behind by 12 levels initially, he turned out to do very well. Game ended with us winning at 46/46 kills.

Best turn-around ever =)

I played five games of LoL last night with a full group, and learned a bit of a lesson.

The first four games I picked after my teammates. I filled in what we needed (Sona, Leona, Leona, Cait) instead of picking who I felt like playing (Lux). We kicked butt. All 4 games were decisive wins, and my lane did awesome each time.

But for my fifth and final game of the night I wanted to play mid lane Lux. So I did, and the rest of the team built around me.

We got destroyed, and it was my fault.

Unlike many others I really quite enjoy playing Support and am not the kind of person that itches to carry teams.

So lesson learned: Play what I want, and I lost. Play what my team needs, and I win.

I like winning, so the choice is obvious. :smallsmile:

Yeah, in my typical group of 5 I almost always end up top or jungle. This is good, because those are my two strongest roles. I like playing those roles, and my team often wants me to play those roles.

Sometimes I am forced to play support. I am not a great support, but I can play well enough to not lose the lane for my carry (unless I'm Janna. I am a really bad Janna). When I play AD carry once in a blue moon, I tend to do fairly well but get frustratingly few kills. An example score for a game with me as AD would be 2/1/15, or some such nonsense.

When I play mid, I play Galio. No exceptions. No alternatives. My team usually hates it until teamfights happen, then they suddenly remember that Galio has a really good ult.

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Originally Posted by Volatar

So lesson learned: Play what I want, and I lost. Play what my team needs, and I win.

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I'd like to point out that there is nothing wrong about playing what your team needs, and in fact, this can lead to you learning new roles and heroes that you never thought you'd enjoy before. I didn't know that playing Taric was so fun until I was forced to play support, for instance.

Also: a lot of high elo teams do the same thing. Xpecial actually has a LOT of Nasus games played on his NA account, for instance. I will never forget that Xpecial was, during the height of HSSG Nidalee, the first player I saw outlane HSGG (Xpecial played Kennen). It was pretty epic. Sadly, Xpecial couldn't carry his team.

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Originally Posted by fred dref

Sometimes I am forced to play support. I am not a great support, but I can play well enough to not lose the lane for my carry (unless I'm Janna. I am a really bad Janna). When I play AD carry once in a blue moon, I tend to do fairly well but get frustratingly few kills. An example score for a game with me as AD would be 2/1/15, or some such nonsense.

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I find AD carries really hard because my positioning is so... terrible. I tend to die far to much. I can farm really good, but then I explode in teamfights. Its frustrating.

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When I play mid, I play Galio. No exceptions. No alternatives. My team usually hates it until teamfights happen, then they suddenly remember that Galio has a really good ult.

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I'm of the mind that, right now, until they nerf Galio, he is the perfect and easiest middle to win your lane with. Unless the enemy specifically counterpicks you with double AD solo lanes and an AD carry bottom (at which point you stack armor and dive towers ftw XD) he's really good as a solo laner. Middle lane for him is amazing because he clears waves decently has AMAZING mid game roam/burst. Like... I actually don't know why people don't play him very often.

Also: today I had my first Vlad game where I got tremendously fed and it was funny. I ended the game with WotA, Rylais, Hourglass, Deathcap, Boots, and... I'm not sure what I had in my last slot. I was thinking about getting another Deathcap at that point. It was hilarious how I could just ... kill everyone.

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Originally Posted by fred dref

An example score for a game with me as AD would be 2/1/15, or some such nonsense.

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The two of us have the same problem, it seems.

I normally just accept that I play carries as secret supports, supports as secret carries (especially seeing as I often get focused in teamfights for no reason, with a 10/0/1 super squishy TF right next to me) and Malphite.

Galio is fun, yes. I've had some really cool moments with his ult (beyond the usual 'wait until there is a teamfight. Press R. Win teamfight' thing)

EDIT: I kept losing today, but met cool people each game. Why can't I win and find good enemies?

Oh, and the best 'you can't counterpick this' move is Malph/Galio.

AP heavy? Die.

AD heavy? Die.

If they pick true damage people, get Mundo, too.

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Originally Posted by PersonMan

If they pick true damage people, get Mundo, too.

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Why not get Shen or Olaf, you know, someone who actually scales well with HP?

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Originally Posted by fred dref

Why not get Shen or Olaf, you know, someone who actually scales well with HP?

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Er, what do you mean by that?

Most Mundos stack HP and HP regen anyway due to the way his kit works... :smallconfused:

You mean Mundo has no straight up damage scaling from HP like the two? Well, he sure tanks like a meanie when he has health stacked up and his ult is turned on. If he can just be in your face and throw cleavers then it sounds like a decent true damage deterrent.

With all these AD carry champions around, I figured I'd see how AD Carry Jarvan would work:

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http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/467...estadcarry.png

Turns out Jarvan is the best AD carry ever. All the escapes, all the initiations, all the damage, percentile shred and damage and...yeah, he's melee but who cares :smallbiggrin:

Bonus: Morde best score.

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Originally Posted by Winthur

Er, what do you mean by that?

Most Mundos stack HP and HP regen anyway due to the way his kit works... :smallconfused:

You mean Mundo has no straight up damage scaling from HP like the two? Well, he sure tanks like a meanie when he has health stacked up and his ult is turned on. If he can just be in your face and throw cleavers then it sounds like a decent true damage deterrent.

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His ult scales as well with resistances as it does HP, so the only thing that actually encourages HP stacking is his passive...

edit:
which is in fact identical to his ultimate and I'm tired and stupid.

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Originally Posted by fred dref

Why not get Shen or Olaf, you know, someone who actually scales well with HP?

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Because Shen is already the team's AP mid and Olaf is supporting.

It's an odd team.

EDIT: Oh, and Mundo is one of the few champs who, without specific items, scales on the enemy's HP.

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Originally Posted by PersonMan

Because Shen is already the team's AP mid and Olaf is supporting.

It's an odd team.

EDIT: Oh, and Mundo is one of the few champs who, without specific items, scales on the enemy's HP.

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Few? There's like 20 champs with percentile damage in their kits by now...

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Originally Posted by Winthur

Er, what do you mean by that?

Most Mundos stack HP and HP regen anyway due to the way his kit works... :smallconfused:

You mean Mundo has no straight up damage scaling from HP like the two? Well, he sure tanks like a meanie when he has health stacked up and his ult is turned on. If he can just be in your face and throw cleavers then it sounds like a decent true damage deterrent.

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If someone has a health steroid, like Cho'Gath/anyone with a shield, do you build health or resists? You build resists. If someone has a steroid that scales with health, what do you build? You build health. If someone has a health steroid that scales with health, what do you build? A mixture of health and resists. Health stacking is not the optimal route to tanking things as Mundo. People with free resists? They should stack health. People with damage from health? Stack up some health. People like Mundo and Nautilus, who get health steroids from health? Build a mixture, just like always.

EDIT: I think Mundo is unique in that he has percentage damage with a minimum, though.

And no, a flat addition to percentage damage doesn't count. Go away Vayne.

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Originally Posted by aethernox

His ult scales as well with resistances as it does HP, so the only thing that actually encourages HP stacking is his passive...

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When you think about it if you have health then you still sorta scale from Masochism since it scales off your missing health. It's like, when you have 500 health out of 1000 (a truly outrageous example) you won't last long anyway. If you have 2000 out of 4000 and you have your ult running then if you keep taking damage (bombarded by AoE or just kited/peeled) you still have the Masochism bonus from missing HP and whatever resistances you need.

Oh, and it's not like I play Mundo as a 3500 HP clay feet juggernaut with <100 resistances. I pick up Aegis and Visage on him, sometimes Randuin too, for instance.

That and FoN scales ridiculously well with health and Mundo's schtick which is being a HP regen tank.

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Originally Posted by fred dref

EDIT: I think Mundo is unique in that he has percentage damage with a minimum, though.

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How does that make any difference whatsoever :smallconfused: If you're looking to use Percentile Damage, you probably want the Percentile effect, not the flat effect. And there are other champs with minimum; at least Warwick off the top of my head. Probably more but I really don't want to read the fineprint that is relevant once in a dozen games on all the percentile damage abilities right now :smallsigh:

Btw, Mordekaiser for president. Shield and Spellvamp are the ultimate counter to percentile damage, true damage and all other forms of damage, especially since he has ridiculous inherent resistances and a resistance steroid to boot. :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Few? There's like 20 champs with percentile damage in their kits by now...

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I can only think of three (WW, Doctor Doctor Moon Doe and Kog'Maw).

Anyways, the point is that he scales off of the enemy HP and is a good addition to the team outlined above.

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Originally Posted by PersonMan

I can only think of three (WW, Doctor Doctor Moon Doe and Kog'Maw).

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WW, Mundo, Kog, Vayne, Xin, Jarvan, Amumu, Malzahar, Mordekaiser, Brand, Poppy and I'm probably forgetting somebody.

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Originally Posted by PersonMan

I can only think of three (WW, Doctor Doctor Moon Doe and Kog'Maw).

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Vayne, Brand, Mordekaiser, Amumu, Fizz (although oddly, since the damage is actually a percentile of missing health), Jarvan IV, Lee Sin (much like Fizz), Malzahar, Nasus, Poppy, and Xin Zhao. I may have missed one or two, but I think that's an almost completely list (including the ones you mentioned, that is) of damage that scales directly proportional to the enemy's total health.