Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

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Originally Posted by Raktus

So, where would a Fallen Aasimar rank in a strength build versus a Human Variant?

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Well, as aforementioned it's difficult for me to rate right now when I don't have the actual book until the end of this month. Will update once I get it.

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Originally Posted by Gastronomie

Well, as aforementioned it's difficult for me to rate right now when I don't have the actual book until the end of this month. Will update once I get it.

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I literally just got mine, so I'll see if I can't help provide an opinion.

Aasimar in General:
ASI: +2 CHA, +1 STR is perfect for the Paladin smiting parts of this build.
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Darkvision: Always nice to have. 60' is nothing special.
Celestial Resistance: Necrotic resistance is extremely nice in campaigns where you fight a lot of undead. Radiant resistance is less useful but still appreciated.
Healing Hands: Free Healing? Sure! Not as strong as Lay on Hands, but it scales with level and can be used as a band-aid. Unlike Lay on Hands, you can only use it once per Long rest.
Light Bearer: You already have Darkvision, but free is free.

Necrotic Shroud: As an action, you grow scary wings - that cannot be used to fly - which causes all creatures in 10' to face a CHA saving throw Vs. Fright. In addition, you do extra necrotic damage when you hit something with a melee attack or a spell.

TBH, I don't like Necrotic Shroud. The wings are merely ornamental unlike Protector Aasimar who can actually fly! While it does use a rarely possessed saving throw in Charisma, it also affects allies. This is less of an issue if you got your Paladin Aura's, but you do not ever want to give your allies disadvantage on anything.

Even if Protector Aasimar get a +1 WIS over STR, I think they get the best minute-long ability of the three because it doesn't discourage your allies from standing near you in melee. (Unlike Scourge which punishes EVERYTHING a little bit every round, and Fallen which discourages them once but at a significant price if they fail.)

What would you suggest a level 6 Sorcadin using a greatsword do? Assuming no Shadow Sorcerer, at least. Would it be fine to go Paladin 3/ Fire Draconic Sorcerer X while picking up GWM, using GFB? I know the damage from the extra attack would be better, but for the sake of getting to the higher spells faster in a mid level campaign, is the damage that much higher? (going to around 10/12)?

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Originally Posted by Ashuan21

3) For DBZ: I was thinking to a Sorcadin build similar to yours, but I chose Str over Dex, what convinced you to go Dex instead? (I see the point if Str requirement for multiclassing is removed, but otherwise I find there's little to be gained)

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I'm of the opposing viewpoint. I see there to be little reason to go Str based.
The few points that it takes to get the Str req covered on a build is almost a non-issue on an Half-Elf, as you can get that 13 Str while still starting with 16/14/16 in Dex/Con/Cha respectively. If you start Pally, you get Wis saves, so that weakness from a -1 mod is shored up a bit and grows over time. You're eventually going to take War Caster (or Res:Con, but I completely prefer WC) to help with those saves. Int is a dump stat, with no loss by dumping it as Int saves are exceedingly rare and if you want Investigation the proficiency bonus covers the loss. You get a +1 to Str saves and checks, not great, but also not needed much if you have Acro prof. You have comparable AC. But you also have much much better Dex saves and checks, and with the right background and/or skill choices, you become significantly more well rounded.
Dex simply gives you more bang for your buck, with almost no downsides to go with it.
Obviously this position is highly debated, but that is indeed my position.

With a Half-Elf Pally2/SorcX, if you start Pally, go Dex based, choose or create a background with stealth and thieves' tools, and favor CC/AoE/Buff spells, there is damned near nothing that you can't do at least marginally well. The same can't be said of a Str build.
I prefer Dex over Str because it makes an already flexible character much moreso.

Hey all,

So I am making a new character for a game. DM rolled stats for me and I got 18, 14, 15, 14, 16, 14. Character level 10.
I am wanting to go with a dex based Sorcadin. Current party has a Devotion/Sentinel/Shield Master Pally, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Warlock(All lvl 10)

I am looking on advice and insight on races to consider as I can't really decide, Scourge Aasimar? Also what to do with ASI's? Is War Caster required? Or only if the DM requires somatic components? One of feat I would like thoughts on is Defensive Duelist?

Also, given my stat rolls. I open to any suggestions outside of dex Sorcadin if something comes to mind to any who help me.

Thank you.

P.S. I should also mention the campaign is set in FR just after the spellplague and the DM is not allowing any magic over 5th level. Also, will be given a magic item by the DM, fitting the character I make.

@DBZ: Well, that is interesting. If you think of switching from STR to DEX as "the cost of 1 feat/ASI", it's arguably one that's worth it...

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Originally Posted by Sarnax

Hey all,

So I am making a new character for a game. DM rolled stats for me and I got 18, 14, 15, 14, 16, 14. Character level 10.
I am wanting to go with a dex based Sorcadin. Current party has a Devotion/Sentinel/Shield Master Pally, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Warlock(All lvl 10)

I am looking on advice and insight on races to consider as I can't really decide, Scourge Aasimar? Also what to do with ASI's? Is War Caster required? Or only if the DM requires somatic components? One of feat I would like thoughts on is Defensive Duelist?

Also, given my stat rolls. I open to any suggestions outside of dex Sorcadin if something comes to mind to any who help me.

Thank you.

P.S. I should also mention the campaign is set in FR just after the spellplague and the DM is not allowing any magic over 5th level. Also, will be given a magic item by the DM, fitting the character I make.

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ohai~~

War Caster is good, regardless of whether somatic components are required or not. However, if your DM says the component issue can be taken care of, Resilient (CON) becomes another option, depending on how you arrange stats (if the +1 CON can bump up your CON, Resilient can be good, but otherwise go War Caster all the way).

And sorry, I cannot say for sure about the Aasimar race since I do not have Volo's yet. But god, are those stats awesome. As for the other races - for one thing, there is little reason to go Variant Human with those stats, looking at the stuff below:

For Variant Human it'd be:
14-18-15-14-14-16 (@Original)
14-18-16-14-14-17 (@Racial Bonus)
14-18-17-14-14-17 (@Resilient CON via V-Human)
14-20-17-14-14-17 (@First ASI)
14-20-18-14-14-18 (@Second ASI)

For Half-Elf it'd be:
14-18-15-14-14-16 (@Original)
14-19-16-14-14-18 (@Racial Bonus)
14-20-17-14-14-18 (@First ASI)
14-20-18-14-14-18 (@Second ASI for Resilient CON)

...Meaning that going Half-Elf > going V-Human if you're gonna take Resilient. With the racial bonuses of Half-Elves and V-Humans, it's impossible to get both DEX and CHA to 20 at level 10 while also taking either Resilient (CON) or War Caster. And I think the same applies for all the other races as well. I think putting both DEX and CHA to 20 is top priority.

I think that Defensive Duelist is "good, but not amazing" for Sorcadins. At least based on STR Sorcadin experience, as mentioned above, I think pumping your CHA to max using ASIs is more important. After that, it could be a good idea if you want, but be aware that using up your reaction makes you a worse sentinel (if you're going 6/X and wish to be one. Otherwise, not much of a problem).

If your DM says no high-level spells, you might as well stop Sorcerer at 10. After Paladin 6/Sorcerer 10, you could perhaps go Bard, or Fighter, or Rogue, or Warlock or whatever. You do have the stats required to multiclass in anything...

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Originally Posted by Gastronomie

@DBZ: Well, that is interesting. If you think of switching from STR to DEX as "the cost of 1 feat/ASI", it's arguably one that's worth it...

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Precisely. And thanks.
If you look at the build I posted a while back and you take a closer look at his proficiencies, both skill and saves, and take his stats into account, you'll see what I mean about there being damned near nothing that he can't do at least marginally well.
That list basically amounts to Animal Handling, Survival, Knowledge skills, and Intelligence saves. And even in the case of knowledge skills, that's only for things I need to know right now. If I have time to search for the answer, I have investigation proficiency. Medicine? He has Cure Wounds and Lay On Hands.

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Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero

Precisely. And thanks.
If you look at the build I posted a while back and you take a closer look at his proficiencies, both skill and saves, and take his stats into account, you'll see what I mean about there being damned near nothing that he can't do at least marginally well.
That list basically amounts to Animal Handling, Survival, Knowledge skills, and Intelligence saves. And even in the case of knowledge skills, that's only for things I need to know right now. If I have time to search for the answer, I have investigation proficiency. Medicine? He has Cure Wounds and Lay On Hands.

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That brings me to think that our initial disagreement of "which is better, 2/18 or 6/14" may have to do with preference between STR and DEX. DEX builds will have lower CON (lower HP) and lower AC (plate has better AC than any medium or light armor), making them not as effective as STR builds at being a tank. But in exchange, DEX builds are more versatile.

Possibly, it might be the case that "STR builds are better off going 6/14, and DEX builds are better off going 2/18". Can't say for sure, but perhaps.

I think it might also be the case that the new asimar and yuan ti races are more disposed to strength builds, or at least, they cannot get so much out of a dex build. Given no racial skills, a dex build will only have skills from their background and class. That means they cannot have stealth (a big advantage of dex builds) without giving up perception. Now: you don't NEED perception, but you almost do. This isn't a problem that a half elf (for example) has. They can optimize a dex build, get stealthy, and still have proficiency in perception.

Yes one could drop another ASI, but a sword and board dex build is pretty strained on that count already.

Congratulations! It's a great guide!

I'm currently playing a Fighter 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer Favored Soul 6 and it's amazing.

My multiclass sequence was that:

Fighter 1: CON proficiency it's the main reason. So there's no need to to pick a feat-tax to bolster you concentration check. CON save is also very useful. STR save is a small and useful extra since it helps to avoid knockdown.

Another big bonus were Fighting Style and Second Wind. Having TWO fighting styles helps make you a better warrior and Second Wind works like a bonus action Cure Wounds restrict to yourself for free at every short rest.

Sorcerer 6: Because you want 3rd level spells (CL 6) and Extra Attack (CL 7) as soon as possible. Using spells like Shield and Blur for defense (combined with Heavy Armor Master and Plate Armor) and Green-Flame Blade for offense made my character a respectable frontline warrior. Things become even better when I picked Great Weapon Master.

Paladin 1 & 2: The first Paladin level just meh. The real boost came with Paladin 2. At this point, I can use 4th level spells because the added levels of Sorcerer (full caster) and Paladin (half-caster) gives me 4th level slots (Caster level 7). Extra Attack, Divine Smite, Two Fighting Styles (Great Weapon Master and Defence), AoE spells like Fireball and Lighting Bolt and Quickened Spell + Empowered Spell. I just love to Slash & Blast my foes, all in the same turn. Critical smites are incredibily fun.

That said, my main idea is to go Fighter 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer Favored Soul 17, mainly because of the 9th level spells. However, I would only receive them at level 20. Since our short rests takes about 5-15 minutes (Heroic Rest from DMG), I'm considering seriously the possibility to take another Fighter level, so the final result would be Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Sorcerer Favored Soul 16. If I follow this option, I could combine Action Surge + Divine Smite with 4th level spells (I use Spell Points, so I can handle multiple full powered, 4th level Smites) for when I wish to go Final Fantasy Limite Break mode.

What do you think, guys? Is that worthy the losing of one spell (the 15th spell at Sorcerer 17), one metamagic option, level 9th spells and 1 Sorcery Point?

Good guide, m8. One thing you should do, though, is put those gifs in spoiler. They almost crashed my phone.

Something else you could do if you feel like it is rate the Cleric domains for favored soul, I'm having trouble picking one, as simple as it seems.

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Originally Posted by Carlos Barreto

What do you think, guys? Is that worthy the losing of one spell (the 15th spell at Sorcerer 17), one metamagic option, level 9th spells and 1 Sorcery Point?

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Yep. Action Surge is already very powerful by itself (two spells in one round? Quickened Spell and four attacks? Yes please), and with that epic rule in place it's practically gamebreaker.

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Originally Posted by Carlos Barreto

What do you think, guys? Is that worthy the losing of one spell (the 15th spell at Sorcerer 17), one metamagic option, level 9th spells and 1 Sorcery Point?

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Originally Posted by Specter

Yep. Action Surge is already very powerful by itself (two spells in one round? Quickened Spell and four attacks? Yes please), and with that epic rule in place it's practically gamebreaker.

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Agreed. Action Surge is for your build a Worthy Capstone ability.

This seems like a really interesting build I might have to put onto my (large!) slate of upcoming characters to play in the AL haha. I haven't played a GWM character yet so I'd be interested in taking that approach to it. In that spirit, I'm thinking something along the lines of:

Race: undecided! A Triton would be an ideal choice of course given that it gets boosts to every stat I'd be interested in for a GWM build, as well as bringing some racial spells to the table. Otherwise a half-elf is ideal, and the route I'd like to go if an official UA/PHB2 book comes out next year so I could actually use it. Until then though I'm proceeding with what we have now.

Race: Triton

Str: 16

Con: 15

Dex: 12

Int: 8

Wis: 13

Cha: 15

Now the main problem is that to make a full on anime character, I'd like to squeeze in fighter 3 (battlemaster), Paladin 3 (devotion), Sorcerer (Dragonblood) X. Battlemaster gives me a short rest resource and more flexibility, while also providing damage. The main hitch I'm running into is how to map out the progression - no matter how I slice it, it's awkward to take two classes to level 3 and will seriously mess with my ASI progression although something like gauntlets of Ogre strength would solve it rather handily. I might just end up going fighter 3 then paladin 3 and then sorcerer the rest of the way - while this doesn't get me an ASI until level 10, the fighter/paladin levels will make a me a tough enough bruiser in the meantime. Alternatively, I'll go fighter 1 -> paladin 3 -> Sorcerer 5 -> fighter 2+3. I'll get my ASI at level 8 (GWM probably), and get access to those sweet, sweet level 3 sorcerer spells.

How are you meeting the material/arcane focus requirements for casting the sorcerer spells?

A lot of the recommended spells have a material requirement.

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Originally Posted by yourself196

How are you meeting the material/arcane focus requirements for casting the sorcerer spells?

A lot of the recommended spells have a material requirement.

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Use an arcane focus staff as your weapon, as they can double as quarterstaves (but not the other way around).

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Originally Posted by yourself196

How are you meeting the material/arcane focus requirements for casting the sorcerer spells?

A lot of the recommended spells have a material requirement.

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War Caster and a spell component pouch.

Is this build any good as a pure Blaster/DPR sort of character? Full offensive artillery just laying down the pain with sword and spell? Or is that another job? What's the best Blaster/Striker gish?

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Originally Posted by Giant2005

Staff and Shield users are basically the same as what you have listed for Longsword users, except that they don't need Warcaster.

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Originally Posted by Gastronomie

Well, by RAW, staffs and quarterstaffs seem like different stuff.

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The magic staff was intended to be used as a quarterstaff, which is also confirmed bu the following:

Spoiler: DMG p.140: STAFFS

Show

A magic staff is about 5 or 6 feet long. Staffs vary widely in appearance: some are of nearly equal diameter throughout and smooth, others are gnarled and twisted, some are made of wood, and others are composed of polished metal or crystal. Depending on the material, a staff weighs between 2 and 7 pounds. Unless a staff's description says otherwise, a staff can be used as a quarterstaff.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/11/focus-staff/
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/20/...taff-in-melee/

So yeah, my Sorcadin will be wielding a staff and a shield, thank you very much. :smallbiggrin:

So i only skimmed the thread slightly...Anyone have any progression advice? Currently joining a campaign at level 2... Dont' know if I should go Pally 2, or Pally 1/Sorc 1.

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Originally Posted by CaptAl

It's because Sorcerer gets Quicken spell which takes up your bonus action. PAM uses your bonus action as well. It's not that PAM is bad, but why whack a mole with the butt end of your stick when you can quicken a Booming Blade/GFB? It just adds more competition for action economy.

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i've had this conversation before on other threads, but the big complaint is that for you to get good DPR you have to blow resources if your only answer is quicken spells- with PAM on the other hand, you get the option to deal only marginally worse damage while quickening, or you can deal decent standard damage with the PAM attack in fights that you don't want or need to nova in.

Also PAM gives a reaction attack occasionally, and that actually works great with booming blade and warcaster in your kit.

I never understood the argument that having more options for your bonus action was a *bad* thing....
The whole idea of "competition for your bonus action" is garbage IMHO. having more options is a benefit, not a hindrance.

Hi folks,
So I could use some advice.

Quick background:

• My Half-elf sorcadin just hit Pal 2 / Wild Sorc 3.
• I play Adventurers' League, so I can still do a free rebuild if I want to change anything before I play my first session at 5.
• I just obtained the Staff of Swarming Insects. One of the things it can do is use a charge to create a cloud of harmless insects, centered on me for 10 mins, that causes the area to be heavily obscured for everyone but me. I can safely do this 1d6+4 times per day (so like virtually every combat, in my experience). I read this as similar to the darkness/devil's sight combo -- I can see my targets, but they can't see me, so I get advantage on attacks, and they get disadvantage. I'm also pretty sure the DMs I play with will interpret it this way as well. (If you have a different interpretation, that's cool, but it's not one of my questions.)

Question 1: Metamagic

I was planning on taking quicken (of course); and careful, because I love the idea of being a crowd controller. But, I was always a bit conflicted about careful vs. twinned...being able to quicken a booming blade, then twin a booming blade with my action, and smite on all three hits.... man that's a lot of awesomeness. Now that I will likely have advantage on all attacks because of the staff, I'm leaning even more towards it. Is this a no-brainer? Or should I consider sticking with Careful?
Note that spending more time casting cantrips and smites (via twinned booming blade), and less time casting actual sorcerer spells, conflicts with the Wild Mage goal of maximizing surges. So I'll probably only do this when I really want to burst down an opponent.

Question 2: Feats/ASI

I had taken Warcaster at 4. But now with the staff, I'll have an arcane focus in my hand at all times (planning on using it as a weapon). And of course the divine focus on my shield. Plus, enemies will have disadvantage on attacking me (and my AC is great anyway, plus I've got the Shield spell), so I'll be making fewer concentration checks. The third advantage of the feat --opportunity attack with a spell for locking folks down with booming blade-- is still pretty sweet though, especially since with disadvantage foes are less likely to want to stick next to me. But is another feat now better? Resilient? Polearm Master? Cha or Str ASI? I'm guessing no, Warcaster is just too good, but wanted to get yall's thoughts.

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Originally Posted by OhmyApollo

So i only skimmed the thread slightly...Anyone have any progression advice? Currently joining a campaign at level 2... Dont' know if I should go Pally 2, or Pally 1/Sorc 1.

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If you have a reason relevant to you character's backstory that would require having both aspects from the start, then by all means, go Pally 1/Sorc 1, but I would recommend taking Pally 2 ASAP at 3rd level.

Otherwise go Pally 2 immediately and take sorc 1 at 3rd level.

While Divine Sense and Lay on Hands might seem to be a bit lame abilities for 1st level paladin, they do represent the unique connection a paladin has with the divine. This alone is (if you can look past the power-gaming point of view) quite good to start with.

However, there's no denying how much a paladin's effectiveness in combat improves at 2nd level with the access to Divine Smite and the Fighting Style, not to mention the paladin spells which are quite great as well (bless, cure wounds, divine favor, and shield of faith all come to mind immediately, but there are other good spells too).

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Originally Posted by Zene

Hi folks,
So I could use some advice.

Quick background:

• My Half-elf sorcadin just hit Pal 2 / Wild Sorc 3.

Question 2: Feats/ASI

I had taken Warcaster at 4.

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How exactly have you taken War Caster at 4, if you are playing Adventurer's League by the book? The feats/ASI depend on your class level, not on your character level as in previous editions. With your current build (and from how you presented it, I assume you have played this specific build up to this point), you would've had to wait for either paladin 4 or sorcerer 4 to get the ASI.

If the above build is what you have been playing with, your character has been illegal, if you have taken War Caster at 4th character level where you, rules as written, could not.

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Originally Posted by Arkhios

How exactly have you taken War Caster at 4, if you are playing Adventurer's League by the book? The feats/ASI depend on your class level, not on your character level as in previous editions. With your current build (and from how you presented it, I assume you have played this specific build up to this point), you would've had to wait for either paladin 4 or sorcerer 4 to get the ASI.

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Ah, thanks for the catch! You are absolutely right. I jumped the gun, and will not pick up a feat til 6.

I actually have only played it at levels 1,2, and 3; as soon as I got enough xp to hit 4 --after last session-- I used the AL "catching up" rule to hit 5th level. So I haven't yet played it at 4 or 5.

So yeah, the question is really what feat to pick up next level at Pal 2 / Sorc 4. (And the metamagic question, which is still applicable at current level)

If you are going DEX build in this, is it still worthwhile to shoot for Plate armor if your strength is less than the requirement?

I rolled up a character that only had 12 STR but got 16 DEX (+2 to 18 for going Tabaxi). With the Draconic Bloodline and a shield, without armor, the character is sitting on 19 AC at the moment with no disadvantage to stealth. Is upgrading to Plate and taking the Defensive Fighting Style worth the hit to speed and stealth for +2 AC?

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Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero

I never understood the argument that having more options for your bonus action was a *bad* thing....
The whole idea of "competition for your bonus action" is garbage IMHO. having more options is a benefit, not a hindrance.

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I guess the point is that if you've already got some permanent bonus action business like PAM, then others don't have as much value as they would have by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Raktus

If you are going DEX build in this, is it still worthwhile to shoot for Plate armor if your strength is less than the requirement?

I rolled up a character that only had 12 STR but got 16 DEX (+2 to 18 for going Tabaxi). With the Draconic Bloodline and a shield, without armor, the character is sitting on 19 AC at the moment with no disadvantage to stealth. Is upgrading to Plate and taking the Defensive Fighting Style worth the hit to speed and stealth for +2 AC?

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No.

Go one way or the other.

BTW, RAW you can't multiclass a paladin without a 13 or higher STR.

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Originally Posted by Klorox

No.

Go one way or the other.

BTW, RAW you can't multiclass a paladin without a 13 or higher STR.

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Was a typo, I meant 13 STR. Would it be worth more to invest the STR up at every fourth level, or take the 19 AC as best?

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Originally Posted by Raktus

Was a typo, I meant 13 STR. Would it be worth more to invest the STR up at every fourth level, or take the 19 AC as best?

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Take 19. It's better to just cast Shield of Faith than to waste an ASI only for that.