[3.5]Greater Produce Flame (PEACH)

I really like the Produce Flame spell, it is versatile and useful, but at higher levels it loses its "punch" I got the idea to make a higher level version, with a few more options and more power. For those unfamiliar with the spell, or who don't feel like dragging out their players hand book here is the original:

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Produce Flame
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Drd 1, Fire 2
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range 0ft
Effect: Flame in your palm
Duration: 1 min./Level
Saving throw: None
Spell resistance: Yes
Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment.
In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6+1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternately you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no ranged penalty) dealing the same damage as the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to less than one minute, the spell ends after the attack resolves.
This spell does not function underwater.

and I thought that this would be a good higher level variant:

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Produce Flame, Greater
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Drd 3
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range 0ft
Effect: Flame in your palm
Duration: 1 min. /Level
Saving throw: Reflex partial
Spell resistance: Yes
Flames twice as bright as a torch appear in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment.
In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 +1 point per caster level (maximum +10) plus and additional 1d6 per 3 caster levels. Alternately you can hurl the flames up to 200 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no ranged penalty) dealing the same damage as the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to less than one minute, the spell ends after the attack resolves. By blowing across the flames as a standard action you may generate a 30 cone of Flame dealing 1d6 damage per minute left in the spells duration rounded up (maximum 1d6/per caster level) +1 damage per caster level, (maximum +15) with a reflex save for half damage. Using the spell in this manner immediately exhausts all remaining minutes in the spells duration.
This spell does not function underwater.

Pointing out any possible balance issues or new spells to continue the spell chain would be appreciated.

The basic 'greater' spell looks just fine.

Except the bit at the end: 'By blowing across the flames you may generate a 30 cone of Flame dealing 1d6 damage per minute left in the spells duration +1 per caster level'.

Is there a limit here? Is it 1d6 damage a minute left or does using the cone reduce the time left?

To cast five(say a 5th level caster) 30 5d6 +5 coves of flame sounds like a bit much from one spell. Though this would be fine for a nova attack...a single cone of flame that can take out a bunch of small enemies.

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Originally Posted by bloodtide

The basic 'greater' spell looks just fine.

Except the bit at the end: 'By blowing across the flames you may generate a 30 cone of Flame dealing 1d6 damage per minute left in the spells duration +1 per caster level'.

Is there a limit here? Is it 1d6 damage a minute left or does using the cone reduce the time left?

To cast five(say a 5th level caster) 30 5d6 +5 coves of flame sounds like a bit much from one spell. Though this would be fine for a nova attack...a single cone of flame that can take out a bunch of small enemies.

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Fixed: the cone of flame use now ends the spell, regardless of how much time is remaining.

In the original spell it says "Drd 1, Fire 2" what class is Fire? also why don't they get access to the greater spell?

Fire is a domain not a class.

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Originally Posted by Nopraptor

In the original spell it says "Drd 1, Fire 2" what class is Fire? also why don't they get access to the greater spell?

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They don't get access to the spell because domains only get one spell per level, and I diddn't want to go Replacing theirs.

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Originally Posted by madock345

In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6/3 caster levels +1 point per caster level (maximum +10).

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So, at 3rd level, do you want the spell to be dealing 1d6+3 fire damage or 2d6+3 fire damage? As written, the spell does 1d6+3, but I assume, since that's the same damage the original Produce Flame spell would be doing, that you want it to be dealing 2d6+3.

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By blowing across the flames you may generate a 30 cone of Flame dealing 1d6 damage per minute left in the spells duration +1 per caster level. Using the spell in this manner immediately exhausts all remaining minutes in the spells duration.

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Let's say you're a 10th level caster, giving you a duration of 10 minutes per level. You could hurl ten separate balls of flame each dealing 3d6+10 fire damage (or maybe 4d6+10 when you've corrected the mixup above), or you could "go nova" and create a 30ft cone of fire dealing... wait, how much damage? It looks like 20d6 as written, and I seriously doubt that's what you were going for. I think you need to cut the phrase, "+1 per caster level" from the sentence describing how much damage the cone deals. You also need to specify what type of action "blowing across the flames" takes. I would recommend making it a standard action.

Oh, and the cone of flame should probably allow a Reflex save for half damage.

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Originally Posted by Ziegander

So, at 3rd level, do you want the spell to be dealing 1d6+3 fire damage or 2d6+3 fire damage? As written, the spell does 1d6+3, but I assume, since that's the same damage the original Produce Flame spell would be doing, that you want it to be dealing 2d6+3.

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Fixed, it was supposed to be 2d6, thank you.

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Let's say you're a 10th level caster, giving you a duration of 10 minutes per level. You could hurl ten separate balls of flame each dealing 3d6+10 fire damage (or maybe 4d6+10 when you've corrected the mixup above), or you could "go nova" and create a 30ft cone of fire dealing... wait, how much damage? It looks like 20d6 as written, and I seriously doubt that's what you were going for. I think you need to cut the phrase, "+1 per caster level" from the sentence describing how much damage the cone deals. You also need to specify what type of action "blowing across the flames" takes. I would recommend making it a standard action.

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Standard action done. as for how much damage, where do you get 20d6? It says "1d6 per minute remaining in the spells duration", and the spells duration is one minute per caster level, making it 1d6 per caster level minus however many minutes you have already used.

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Oh, and the cone of flame should probably allow a Reflex save for half damage

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Also fixed, again thank you.

So, assuming no metamagic reducers, you can use a single level 4 slot (or an extend rod) to double the damage of the cone of fire (20d6 + 10 at level 10), or use a single level 9 slot to do 1440d6 + X damage in a 30' wide cone, reflex save for half.

The spell definitely sounds interesting, although the cone of fire needs a cap. 20d4 for a fourth-level slot (or a third-level slot with an extend rod) is a bit on the good side, but ninth-level or not (less if you have an incantrix in your party), 1440d6...=p.

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Originally Posted by madock345

as for how much damage, where do you get 20d6?

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By blowing across the flames as a standard action you may generate a 30 cone of Flame dealing 1d6 damage per minute left in the spells duration +1 per caster level, with a reflex save for half damage.

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Bolded for emphasis. That's where I'm getting 20d6 from. As I said, it looks like the bolded excerpt indicates that it deals +1 1d6 damage per caster level, but looking at it objectively, it's not 100% clear what the hell it's supposed to mean. Alternatively, and more to the point of what you seem to want, "[...] a 30ft cone of Flame dealing 1d6 fire damage per minute left in the spell's duration [...]" is perfectly clear. If there are eight minutes left in the duration it deals 8d6 damage, if there are three minutes left in the duration it deals 3d6 damage. It's the "+1 per caster level" part that is making the damage difficult to determine, and the phrase is unnecessary anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ziegander

Bolded for emphasis. That's where I'm getting 20d6 from. As I said, it looks like the bolded excerpt indicates that it deals +1 1d6 damage per caster level, but looking at it objectively, it's not 100% clear what the hell it's supposed to mean. Alternatively, and more to the point of what you seem to want, "[...] a 30ft cone of Flame dealing 1d6 fire damage per minute left in the spell's duration [...]" is perfectly clear. If there are eight minutes left in the duration it deals 8d6 damage, if there are three minutes left in the duration it deals 3d6 damage. It's the "+1 per caster level" part that is making the damage difficult to determine, and the phrase is unnecessary anyway.

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I think what's meant is 1d6 per minute remaining (let's say 5 minutes for maximum, since a 5th-level druid can get this) + 1 per caster level.

So, five minutes is 5d6 and one point per caster level is another five. 5d6 + 5 fire damage.

Honestly, I never understood why the tree huggin' Smokey the Bear types have Produce Flame, Flame Strike, Fire Seeds, Fire Storm, etc. I tend to think of druids as wanting to eschew fiery attacks, but what do I know?

It's quite a versatile spell.

The whole "minute" aspect of the spell, I suspect will have some transaction costs. For instance, I am tenth level and cast the spell on round 1. On round 2, I have less than 10 minutes left, so I must have only 9 minutes rounded down left and I make a melee attack. On round 3, rounded down, it looks like I have 7 minutes left, and so on. This spell requires a lot of attention to detail.

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Originally Posted by Temotei

I think what's meant is 1d6 per minute remaining (let's say 5 minutes for maximum, since a 5th-level druid can get this) + 1 per caster level.

So, five minutes is 5d6 and one point per caster level is another five. 5d6 + 5 fire damage.

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This is correct, and I have clarified the wording.

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Originally Posted by madock345

This is correct, any ideas on how to clarify the wording?

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You could copy produce flame's text.

"...dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 per minute remaining + 1 point per caster level (maximum +10)."

It's simple, basically updates produce flame's premise, and functions just as you want it to.

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Originally Posted by Temotei

You could copy produce flame's text.

"...dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 per minute remaining + 1 point per caster level (maximum +10)."

It's simple, basically updates produce flame's premise, and functions just as you want it to.

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Done, with maximum 10 replaced with maximum 15.

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The whole "minute" aspect of the spell, I suspect will have some transaction costs. For instance, I am tenth level and cast the spell on round 1. On round 2, I have less than 10 minutes left, so I must have only 9 minutes rounded down left and I make a melee attack. On round 3, rounded down, it looks like I have 7 minutes left, and so on. This spell requires a lot of attention to detail.

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That could be a problem, any balance issues with having the minutes round up instead?

I don't think rounding up the minutes left would be too troublesome... I'd even call it necessary: I mean, if you didn't round up, a 5th level caster could only do four attacks per spell.

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Originally Posted by Felyndiira

So, assuming no metamagic reducers, you can use a single level 4 slot (or an extend rod) to double the damage of the cone of fire (20d6 + 10 at level 10), or use a single level 9 slot to do 1440d6 + X damage in a 30' wide cone, reflex save for half.

The spell definitely sounds interesting, although the cone of fire needs a cap. 20d4 for a fourth-level slot (or a third-level slot with an extend rod) is a bit on the good side, but ninth-level or not (less if you have an incantrix in your party), 1440d6...=p.

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Yet, this issue should be adressed...

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Originally Posted by Land Outcast

I don't think rounding up the minutes left would be too troublesome... I'd even call it necessary: I mean, if you didn't round up, a 5th level caster could only do four attacks per spell.


Yet, this issue should be adressed...

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The spell definitely sounds interesting, although the cone of fire needs a cap. 20d4 for a fourth-level slot (or a third-level slot with an extend rod) is a bit on the good side, but ninth-level or not (less if you have an incantrix in your party), 1440d6...=p.

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Both fixed.