I've looked and looked; can anyone direct me to any ideal bard prestige classes? Preferably without sacrificing casting levels or bardic music (though the former is expendable if necessary)?
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I've looked and looked; can anyone direct me to any ideal bard prestige classes? Preferably without sacrificing casting levels or bardic music (though the former is expendable if necessary)?
I read this as bad! I was confused for a second.Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
Anywho! Sublime Chord and Virtuoso are generally consideredgoodflavorfulcheesy and awesome respectively.
Stormsinger from Frostburn. Full casting progression, good blasting features and more bardic music each level (though I don't believe it scales the Inspire Courage ability if that's what you meant.)
The Heartfire Fanner was a great bard prestige class for a musical effect focused bard; however it came from a Dragon magazine, which probably causes some problems.
Let's not forget Lyrical Thaumaturge here. It's a pretty good dip at the least. Also Heartwarder is pretty awesome too.
These all sound good. Can you guys also give me citations for what books I can find these in and the like?
the levelprogression of bard 8/virtuoso 2/sublime chord 2/virtuoso 8 with the feat chaosmusic is what you seek, 9th level casting, full IC. full bardic music uses, and it only costs 1 feat to truly max out (and a chaotic alignment, but you should have had that one anyway). Oh, and another thing, sublime chord and virtuoso are not cheesy, merely highly efficient. (cheese is where (slightly) abusing the rules as they were intended makes a character very powerful)
Lyric Thaumaturge is from Complete Mage. Sublime Chord is from Complete Arcane. Virtuoso is from Complete Adventurer.
If you're up for some multiclassing, I highly recommend the Fochlucan Lyrist from Complete Adventurer. Full BAB progression is a sweet sweet deal, and while the entry costs are extremely steep (Druidic, Bardic Knowledge, Evasion, and some 43 skill points) the pay off off is fantastic for a combat oriented bard. Unbound is also a nice bonus to throw at those DMs who overly XP punish multiclassers.
Yea, I think I'll probably go with this. I'll ask my Bard what he thinks of Lyrical Thaumaturge too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratov
Though if there's anything else you guys want to share, by all means keep it coming. Thank you!
I actually personally really like Sublime Chord for a number of reasons if you're a straight bard.
But one of the best things about it is that you don't necessarily need to be a straight bard (as it's enterable only at level 11). A build I liked a lot, although it required use of a disputed thing to get into Sublime Chord, was Savage Bard 1/Archivist 9/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8. It wasn't optimal, but it was fun as hell playing a dancer scholar who used both divine and arcane magic based on wis/cha.
well, arguably the most beautiful thing about Sublime chord is the spellcasting, and the casterlevel enhancing song that it gives. that's all you need. couple that with Virtuoso and soon you'll be able to do just about anything without becoming too powerful (like wizards and the like who just enslave reality like Jabba does Leia).
With Sublime Chord you're throwing so many skill points into things you not want. Seriously; Profession:Astrology?
Not that it's not a good PrC, but you're killing yourself as a skillmonkey to meet a requirement that you can't reach until midlevels anyway. Meaning you have to put up with being an inept Bard until you meet the PrC requirements.
Given how actual play goes, I would NEVER go for Sublime Chord unless the game started at fairly high level. Plus, it basically turns you into a Sorceror. Why didn't you play one of those in the first place?
I go for Lyric Thaumaturge. Doesn't gimp your saves and BAB like SC does, gives you some useful extras, and extremely easy to get into. Require a feat (Melodic Casting) that you should have already, given that whether it took forever to come out, it's to Bards what Natural Spell is to Druids. Plus 9 ranks in Perform and 6 ranks spellcraft. A level 6 Bard should qualify by default.
SC Skill requirements:
- Know (arcana): 13 ranks
- Listen: 13 ranks
- Perform (any one): 10 ranks
- Profession (astrologer):6 ranks
- Spellcraft: 6 ranks
As a Bard you will have the Perform ranks, and Listen is solid.
Know (arcana) and Spellcraft are less useful, though these do open up some feats.
This just leaves 6 skill points as less than useful, though Spellcraft 6 is close to useless. Over 10 levels that's just 1 skill point per level which is not so much.
Except for the Perform and maybe the 6 ranks in spellcraft, none of those are skills a Bard needs maxed or wants maxed compared with what else they could be buying from their skill list, or what the rest of the party could be reasonably expected to provide.
I agree that Listen is solid. I never take it, because there's only so many points and I want my UMD, Tumble, Bluff, Diplomacy, I like a bit of Hide and Move Silently, some points in other knowledges, I might want to spare a few points into Open Lock and Disable Device (especially if Bardic Knack is in Play) and if Melodic Casting is disallowed I need my Concentration as well.
None of these skills are worth investing in so heavily, except to get a PrC. Essentially, going for this PrC handicaps your core class until you hit 9th level.
If somebody wants to say then this is just differences in playing style, then I completely agree. But with the game being what it is, with most campaigns lasting for 10 levels if you're lucky, I would never start a level 1 Bard with any intention of going for SC while Lyric Thaumaturge is on the table.
I guess it depends upon the sort of Bard you play.
I've played a Bard all the way through who didn't have concentration.
UMD is good, but you are a caster so you can live without it.
Spellcraft, really ?
Anway, its about choices really.
SCs are more casterly so I guess its not for you.
LT is casterly as well, but doesn't sacrifice the Bardic flavour of medium Bab and decent saves. A Lyric Thaumaturge is essentially a Bard with a few extra abilities. A Sublime Chord ruins your BAB and gets you a greatly improved spellcasting progression...from level 11 on. Assuming you ever get there. That's the rub. And to even have a chance to get there you have to short-sell your base class for 10 levels.
I listed the 6 levels is Spellcraft because I'm advocating LT here, for which it's a requirement. If I wasn't going for either I'd be quite happy to leave it out. Wouldn't want to seem inconsistant here, after all.
UMD is good because Bards have a limited spell selection and limited castings per day. A good UMD skill today (plus money and wands) is better than the chance to go Sublime Chord at some distant, very possibly non-existant, time.
Of course, if you think the game's going to move far beyond level 11, and you're prepared to pony up the skill points, then by all means go SC.
I vaguely remember a thread on this forum, a year or two ago, about how Lyric Thamaturge is "Bard+". As in, you give up no part of being a Bard, to get MOAR BARD! Your arguments that you "give up" stuff about being a Bard to take SC is how Prestige classes supposed to work. If every Prestige Class was everything your base class is, plus more awesome stuff, why isn't that just the base class?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlowe
My own counter argument: Any and all full casting PrC goes against this premise. But we know that full casters are all broken.
Well, LT means you stop progression of the Bardic musical abilities (though you continue to stack Bardic music uses), so yes; you are giving something up. You also lose skill points.
Trouble is the Bardic Music abilities are generally regarded to stack poorly with level anyway, and that by the time you qualify the spells and abilities are getting to be worth more than the skills.
Tricky to put a counter-counter argument to you, given that I regard that the Bard was released as an unfinished base class in the first place. Not a single feat for them in core.
Still, my main point has nothing to do with yours. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing that Sublime Chord gives up stuff in exchange for its abilities (although this bothers me a little personally. Feels like losing flavour and becoming an imitation of a different class), I'm saying that it's a bad thing that SC makes you short-change yourself as a skill-monkey for 10 levels in the hope of getting to supercharge your casting...eventually.
In the meantime, you're less effective as a Bard than somebody who isn't bothering. And that by the time you start getting your pay-off, the campaign's already over.