3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Printable View

2011-10-04, 09:21 PM
herrhauptmann

3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build
Hey, in a recent thread I mentioned to the OP the Suel Arcanamach prestige class, primarily because I'd gotten it a little confused with sublime chord (forgot how they advanced casting).

But, I've got an idea for something using the both, ridiculous as it is:
1. Bard 1 (needed for sublime): +2 Ref/Will. +0 Bab
2. Paladin of Freedom 3: Fort +3, Will/Ref +1. +3 Bab
3. Another Full BAB class for 3 levels.
  - Spirit Lion/wolf totem Barb for Pounce (trade different things away, so it's kosher)
  - Ranger 3: Alternate fighting style from Dragon Mag, FE: Arcanists,
  - Or some combination of those, with fighter for feats.
4. Suel Arcanamach 4: 3rd level spells (sorc/wiz: Div, Abj, Ill, Trans). BAB +3, Fort+1, Ref/Will +4. -10% ASF. Extended Spellstrength. Tenacious Spells, Dispelling Strike (keys off of Suel level?)
5. Sublime Chord 2: Bardic Lore, Bardic Music, Song of Arcane Power. 4th and 5th level spells from sorc/wiz/bard lists. Armored casting, and advance your CL for Suel spells, using SC progression. Will+3. BAB +1.
6. Spellsword 1: -10 ASF. Fort/Will+2. +1 BAB. Advance Sublime Chord Casting (now 6th level spells)
7. Abjurant Champ 5: Bab +5. Fort/Ref+1. Will+4. Advance Sublime Chord Casting (now 9th level spells)
8. Finally a level in Sacred Exorcist. Doesn't really grant much... Will +2. One more caster level in SC. Exorcism, and turn undead (as a level 1 character)
So you'd have a 20th level spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or bard.
Total Bab: +16
Caster Level:
Bard casting of cantrips, at CL=1.
Sorc casting of 1-3 Abj, Trans, Ill, Div sorc/wiz spells at CL 13 16 (equal to BAB). They would be dispelled against a CL of 22 (tenacious spells)
Sorc casting of 4-9 sorcerer, wizard, and bard spells at CL 13 16 (equal to BAB). They would be dispelled against a CL of 22 (tenacious spells)
Any Suel Arcanamach spells he casts on himself are extended (but not for allies, even if it's a multiple target buff spell)
Would the extended spell strength work for spells gained from Sublime chord? (ie: Spells over 3rd level) Since it states:
"A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells, and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her SC level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a SC, she must choose to which class to add her SC levels for the purpose of determining her SC spellcaster level." Obviously, adding it to the Suel caster level.

Regardless, get extended and quickened abjurations from AC for free. Would be really great if I could get extended twice on my abjurations (for free too), but I don't think a spell can be modified by the same metamagic more than once. Empower my empowered fireball? :smallbiggrin:

TL, DR:My questions.
- Do I benefit from Suel class abilities (tenacious, extended strength) for my 4th-9th level spells, since SC adds to which ever other arcane casting class I've got?
- Should I drop a level in SC? Just go: SC1/Spellsword1/AC5,
  And then maybe EK 2? Thus:Only cast as a 9th level SC, but I'll get a boost to Bab (and caster level)
  Perhaps a different casting class? Maybe something with medium or full bab (are there any others besides swiftblade and knight phantom?)
- Personally don't think I'd need help on choosing those 3 Full Bab levels early on. Just a matter of matching flavor I want with saves, skill points, and class abilities.
- How does this compare to the standard Sorcadin build? Particularly with useful and varied class abilities.
  Pretty sure it's got equal BAB to a sorcadin, divine grace for Cha to saves, and both have 9th level spells by level 20... Beyond that, not so sure.
- How would Mageslayer interact with my caster level? Would it still be equal to my BAB? Or would it be BAB-4? (While dispelling my spells would be what, BAB+6 still, or BAB+2?)
- Does tenacious spell come into play when someone tries to counter my spells?
2011-10-04, 09:31 PM
dextercorvia

Re: 3.5 Suel Chord Build
Quote:
Originally Posted by herrhauptmann

TL, DR:My questions.

Do I benefit from Suel class abilities (tenacious, extended strength) for my 4th-9th level spells, since SC adds to which ever other arcane casting class I've got?
Should I drop a level in SC? Just go: SC1/Spellsword1/AC5,
And then maybe EK 2? Thus:Only cast as a 9th level SC, but I'll get a boost to Bab (and caster level)
Perhaps a different casting class? Maybe something with medium or full bab (are there any others besides swiftblade and knight phantom?)
Personally don't think I'd need help on choosing those 3 Full Bab levels early on. Just a matter of matching flavor I want with saves, skill points, and class abilities.
- No -- you only add to the caster level of Suel -- you gain no features.
- No -- You are trading a casting level for a point of BAB and a bonus feat, not worth it. The CL bump is offset by losing the casting level for EK1.
- Hexblade3 is decent, Warblade or Crusader are both pretty nice as well. Duskblade might help you feel gishy early on. Battle Dancer1 from Dragon Compendium will get you full BAB and +Cha to AC when unarmored.
2011-10-04, 10:11 PM
herrhauptmann

Re: 3.5 Suel Chord Build
Quote:
Originally Posted by dextercorvia

No -- you only add to the caster level of Suel -- you gain no features.
No -- You are trading a casting level for a point of BAB and a bonus feat, not worth it. The CL bump is offset by losing the casting level for EK1.
Hexblade3 is decent, Warblade or Crusader are both pretty nice as well. Duskblade might help you feel gishy early on. Battle Dancer1 from Dragon Compendium will get you full BAB and +Cha to AC when unarmored.
1)Alright, fair enough. But to double check, if I had gone Suel Arcanamach right into Abjurant Champion, I would be getting the bonus features with the spells I get from AC, right?
2)Didn't think so. Sucks that most gishy PrC lose a CL at level 1. I'll hunt around for a medium BAB caster then. One of them should do it, and if Fractional BAB/Saves are allowed, I should be able to get an extra CL (as SC 10) and BAB.
3)Really sucks, I spent so long writing that up and fleshing it out from my suggestion in the other thread. And it gets answered in 5 sentences

Additional question: (I'll add it to the top too)
- How does this compare to the standard Sorcadin build? Particularly useful and varied class abilities.
- Pretty sure it's got equal BAB to a sorcadin, and both have 9th level spells by level 20.
- How would Mageslayer interact with my caster level? Would it still be equal to my BAB? Or would it be BAB-4? (While dispelling my spells would be what, BAB+6 still, or BAB+2?)
- Does tenacious spell come into play when someone tries to counter my spells?
edit: More questions

possible options for level 20 (or 19+20 if I only take one level of SC)
Sacred Exorcist (medium Bab) Can't believe I messed that up.
Unseen Seer (medium bab, good will). Find out what 'advanced learning' is. Bonus metamagic: Silent spell
Holy Scourge? Really bad, only if I want to emphasize the paladin thing
Nightmare Spinner (low bab, good will) 4/5 casting, but bonus spells
Mindbender (only if CE paladin) Good fort, will. Low BAB. Get telepathy. Lose casterlevel at Mind 2
Fatespinner (bad bab. good will).
Elemental Savant: (bad bab, good will): Minor use at late levels
Argent Savant: (bad bab, good will). Neat effects with force, stacks with AC in spells that grant AC to armor/shield...
2011-10-05, 08:00 AM
dextercorvia

Re: 3.5 Suel Chord Build
Quote:
Originally Posted by herrhauptmann

1)Alright, fair enough. But to double check, if I had gone Suel Arcanamach right into Abjurant Champion, I would be getting the bonus features with the spells I get from AC, right?
2)Didn't think so. Sucks that most gishy PrC lose a CL at level 1. I'll hunt around for a medium BAB caster then. One of them should do it, and if Fractional BAB/Saves are allowed, I should be able to get an extra CL (as SC 10) and BAB.
3)Really sucks, I spent so long writing that up and fleshing it out from my suggestion in the other thread. And it gets answered in 5 sentences

Additional question: (I'll add it to the top too)

How does this compare to the standard Sorcadin build? Particularly useful and varied class abilities.
Pretty sure it's got equal BAB to a sorcadin, and both have 9th level spells by level 20.
How would Mageslayer interact with my caster level? Would it still be equal to my BAB? Or would it be BAB-4? (While dispelling my spells would be what, BAB+6 still, or BAB+2?)
Does tenacious spell come into play when someone tries to counter my spells?

edit: More questions

possible options for level 20 (or 19+20 if I only take one level of SC)
Sacred Exorcist (low Bab)
Unseen Seer (medium bab, good will). Find out what 'advanced learning' is. Bonus metamagic: Silent spell
Holy Scourge? Really bad, only if I want to emphasize the paladin thing
Nightmare Spinner (low bab, good will) 4/5 casting, but bonus spells
Mindbender (only if CE paladin) Good fort, will. Low BAB. Get telepathy. Lose casterlevel at Mind 2
Fatespinner (bad bab. good will).
Elemental Savant: (bad bab, good will): Minor use at late levels
Argent Savant: (bad bab, good will). Neat effects with force, stacks with AC in spells that grant AC to armor/shield...
1) Abjurant Champion only advances spellcasting, it will not give you any more of Suel's class features.

2) Sacred Exorcist is Medium BAB and full casting.

3) Thinking is seldom a waste of effort.

4) You have a higher BAB at early levels, and some interesting class features, but your spells lag until 10th-12th level. Standard Sorcadin is Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist8, which ends up with a BAB of 16 and 18th level Sorcerer casting, as well as Turn Undead early enough to fuel Divine Might or a Devotion feat.

5) Depends, some people will allow you to apply the penalty from Mageslayer first and then reset your CL with AbChamp's ability. I (and others) take any setting effects first, and then allow you to apply bonuses and penalties in the most favorable order.

6) Sacred Exorcist and Unseen Seer are about the Gishiest from that list being Medium BAB and Full Casting. Unseen Seer has that +/- CL thing that can get annoying unless you build around it.

Bard4/PoF2/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion3/EldritchKnight1/SublimeChord2/AbjurantChampion+2/EK+5 gets BAB+18 and 10th level SublimeChord casting.
2011-10-05, 10:32 AM
Keld Denar

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Funny story...if you've already lost one BAB for Bard1, then Bard2-4 is a full BAB 3 level investment. That gets you a bit more bardic shananigans to pull some Inspire Courage trickery at low levels to make up for your lost BAB. Really though, I can tell you from experience that Suel Arcanamach comes painfully late, and losing 1 BAB in those first 6 levels (pushing SA1 to level 8) is painful. I'm playing a 9th level Suel Arcanamach on a Pal4/Dusk2 chassis in an Expedition to the Demonweb Pits game, and even with NaenHoon Persistant shananigans, I'm feeling lacking in magical prowass at that level.

This build isn't BAD, per se, but it is very very very backloaded, not really coming into its own 12-13 or so. Don't get me wrong, I love Suel Arcanamach, it makes for some interesting builds, but that delay of learning spells and limited spells/day is harsh. Unfortunately, there really isn't any full BAB way to get the full bardic music class feature. Harmonious Knight Pally sub 1 gets Inspire Courage, which is part of it, but technically not the full shabang.

Also, you delay entry into Sublime Chord until 12. You should always try to enter it at 11 (after 10 levels). You can only really lose 1 spellcaster level of Sublime Chord and still get to 9. If you delay SC entry until 12, that makes you lose that cushion, which rules out things like Eldritch Knight which lose caster levels if you still have a goal of getting 9s. Just a thought.

EDIT: If you are going as far as Pal3, you might as well take Pal4. Pal4 is golden because you get Turn Undead. You don't actually want to TURN the undead, but you want that ability to power various [Divine] and [Devotion] feats like Divine Might, Divine Shield, Law Devotion, or Travel Devotion. Or heck, if you use an Illumian chassis, NaenHoon Persist shanananananananananananananananananananananananan igans. Persistant Shapechange? OH YEA!
2011-10-05, 11:34 AM
hex0

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

A few suggestions:

1. Master Spellthief is vastly superior to taking Spellsword 1 and needing to take Practiced Spellcaster etc.
2. Why take Paladin and Barbarian when you can take Barbarian and Champion of Gwynharwyf instead? Other than the feat tax.
3. Take Prestige Bard instead of Regular Bard, if possible.
4. Trapsmith gets you 3rd level spells faster than Suel Arcanamach does
2011-10-05, 11:37 AM
Draz74

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

The War Chanter Iron Chef contest showcased people picking up Bardic Music in several ways that didn't involve levels in Bard. Could something like Paladin / Abjurant Champion / Sublime Chord with the Harmonious Knight Paladin Variant work?

EDIT: Looks like Keld already covered this ... drat. Prestige Bard dip (advancing Suel Archanamach) is an interesting idea, though ... just need to figure out a way (Apprentice feat?) to get Perform as a class skill.
2011-10-05, 11:49 AM
Flickerdart

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Initiate of Milil technically lets you skip Bard: "Your bard, cleric, and paladin levels stack for the purpose of determining which kinds of bardic music you can use but not any other effect related to bardic music. You must still meet the Perform skill rank requirement to use various kinds of bardic music." It only requires Perform 3 ranks and 4th level Paladin or Cleric, so you can snag Harmonious Knight for Perform in-class, go Paladin 4/something 2, enter Suel Arcanamach and roll from there.
2011-10-05, 11:50 AM
Keld Denar

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Hmmm, you could do FullBAB6/Suel1-2/PrestigeBard2-3/SublimeChord2/X/Y/Z.

That would get you fastest entry into both classes, but you'd have to use some form of early entry to get 3rd level spells, since Prestige Bard has a lost spellcaster level at 1 and 3, which would result in only having 2nd level Suel spellcasting when you want to start Sublime Chord. How would Prestige Bard interact with Pally levels with something like Devoted Performer or Initiate of Milil?

Also, you're gonna be REALLY strapped for skills. Able Learner will help for sure, which restricts you to Human.

Alternatively, could you use Virtuoso to qualify for Sublime Chord? Harmonious Pally to get Perform as a class skill, leading into Suel Arcanamach and then advancing some of that with Virtuoso? Again, you'll need an early entry technique because you'll only have 3 levels of Suel Arcanamach casting (you need 4 for 3rd level spells).

Just some thoughts.

EDIT: PrC Bard on a Suel chassis won't work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRD

Prerequisites
Ability to cast at least one 1st-level arcane spell from each of the divination, enchantment, and illusion schools.

Suel Arcanamachs can only learn spells from Divination, Transmutation, Abjuration, and Illusion. You can't learn an Enchantment spell to qualify.
2011-10-05, 12:08 PM
dextercorvia

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Unless you use Duskblade for part of your Full BAB -- nets you Combat Casting at second anyway. You can pick up Rouse as a 1st level enchantment spell that way.
2011-10-05, 01:17 PM
Dusk Eclipse

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keld Denar

Hmmm, you could do FullBAB6/Suel1-2/PrestigeBard2-3/SublimeChord2/X/Y/Z.

That would get you fastest entry into both classes, but you'd have to use some form of early entry to get 3rd level spells, since Prestige Bard has a lost spellcaster level at 1 and 3, which would result in only having 2nd level Suel spellcasting when you want to start Sublime Chord. How would Prestige Bard interact with Pally levels with something like Devoted Performer or Initiate of Milil?

Also, you're gonna be REALLY strapped for skills. Able Learner will help for sure, which restricts you to Human.

Alternatively, could you use Virtuoso to qualify for Sublime Chord? Harmonious Pally to get Perform as a class skill, leading into Suel Arcanamach and then advancing some of that with Virtuoso? Again, you'll need an early entry technique because you'll only have 3 levels of Suel Arcanamach casting (you need 4 for 3rd level spells).

Just some thoughts.

EDIT: PrC Bard on a Suel chassis won't work.

Suel Arcanamachs can only learn spells from Divination, Transmutation, Abjuration, and Illusion. You can't learn an Enchantment spell to qualify.

Arcane Disciple? I am sure there is a Domain with enchantment spells... or perhaps a bloodline (from DC?)
2011-10-05, 02:27 PM
hex0

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keld Denar

Suel Arcanamachs can only learn spells from Divination, Transmutation, Abjuration, and Illusion. You can't learn an Enchantment spell to qualify.

Which is why I suggested Trapsmith as a possiblity as they ramp up to 3rd level spells faster than Suel.
2011-10-05, 02:57 PM
dextercorvia

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Quote:

Originally Posted by hex0

Which is why I suggested Trapsmith as a possiblity as they ramp up to 3rd level spells faster than Suel.

Suel gets to 3rd level spells in 4 levels, while Trapsmith takes 5 levels. Also, it is hard to get the skill requirements -- especially Disable Device 8 ranks, on a Full BAB class.
2011-10-05, 03:33 PM
herrhauptmann

Re: 3.5 Suel Chord Build

Holy crap, a lotta responses, thanks guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dextercorvia

1) Abjurant Champion only advances spellcasting, it will not give you any more of Suel's class features.

2) Sacred Exorcist is Medium BAB and full casting.

3) Thinking is seldom a waste of effort.

4) You have a higher BAB at early levels, and some interesting class features, but your spells lag until 10th-12th level. Standard Sorcadin is Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist8, which ends up with a BAB of 16 and 18th level Sorcerer casting, as well as Turn Undead early enough to fuel Divine Might or a Devotion feat.

5) Depends, some people will allow you to apply the penalty from Mageslayer first and then reset your CL with AbChamp's ability. I (and others) take any setting effects first, and then allow you to apply bonuses and penalties in the most favorable order.

6) Sacred Exorcist and Unseen Seer are about the Gishiest from that list being Medium BAB and Full Casting. Unseen Seer has that +/- CL thing that can get annoying unless you build around it.

Bard4/PoF2/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion3/EldritchKnight1/SublimeChord2/AbjurantChampion+2/EK+5 gets BAB+18 and 10th level SublimeChord casting.

1) I realize that a PrC doesn't advance class features of whatever it replaced, unless otherwise stated like RSoP with turn undead. (I swear I'm not that new/dumb). The alternate idea (Suel+AC only)I was getting at was to get tenacious spells/ extended spell strength from Suel, then use AC to advance my Suel casting. At that point, I'd still be casting as a high level Suel, but have only the class features of the low level Suel and the AC. Anyway, no worries.

2)Whoops, shouldn't post when tired, thank you.

3):thog: begs to differ. The idea was fairly solid in my head when I first posted it, just wanted to make it make sense to the non-mindreaders.

4)Ok, a Suel4/Sublime 10 gets 2-1st, 2-2nd, 1-3, 5-4, 4-5, 4-6, 3-7, 3-8, and 2-9th. Off of a very unusual list.
sorc 18 gets 6-0th, 6-1st, 6-2nd, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-6, 6-7, 5-8, and 3-9th,
So my Sublime Arcanamach doesn't win in total spells/day (and probably not spells known). The tenacious dispelling and free limited metamagics should help a little though.

5)Cool. If I ever do it with a character, I'll try to convince the DM to let me apply them in order gained. So just gotta make sure I take the mageslayer feats before AC 5.

6)Just realized I'd been skipping over the entry for 'advanced learning' in the unseen seer. See again: Posting when tired.
Nightmare Spinners bonus spell thing, a lost CL, but boost to my spell/day...
Suel4/Sublime 9: 2-1st, 2-2nd, 1-3, 4-4, 4-5, 4-6, 3-7, 2-8, and 1-9th.
Suel4/Sublime9/Nightmare1: 3-1st, 3-2nd, 2-3, 5-4, 5-5, 5-6, 4-7, 3-8, and 2-9th. With that extra spell being an illusion spell.
Sorta sucks that if I want that extra spell/day, I've got to use it on an illusion spell. Illusion is good, but if I've only got 2 spells known at a given level, I'll feel a bit trapped if one MUST be an illusion spell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keld Denar

Funny story...if you've already lost one BAB for Bard1, then Bard2-4 is a full BAB 3 level investment. That gets you a bit more bardic shananigans to pull some Inspire Courage trickery at low levels to make up for your lost BAB. Really though, I can tell you from experience that Suel Arcanamach comes painfully late, and losing 1 BAB in those first 6 levels (pushing SA1 to level 8) is painful. I'm playing a 9th level Suel Arcanamach on a Pal4/Dusk2 chassis in an Expedition to the Demonweb Pits game, and even with NaenHoon Persistant shananigans, I'm feeling lacking in magical prowass at that level.

This build isn't BAD, per se, but it is very very very backloaded, not really coming into its own 12-13 or so. Don't get me wrong, I love Suel Arcanamach, it makes for some interesting builds, but that delay of learning spells and limited spells/day is harsh. Unfortunately, there really isn't any full BAB way to get the full bardic music class feature. Harmonious Knight Pally sub 1 gets Inspire Courage, which is part of it, but technically not the full shabang.

Also, you delay entry into Sublime Chord until 12. You should always try to enter it at 11 (after 10 levels). You can only really lose 1 spellcaster level of Sublime Chord and still get to 9. If you delay SC entry until 12, that makes you lose that cushion, which rules out things like Eldritch Knight which lose caster levels if you still have a goal of getting 9s. Just a thought.

EDIT: If you are going as far as Pal3, you might as well take Pal4. Pal4 is golden because you get Turn Undead. You don't actually want to TURN the undead, but you want that ability to power various [Divine] and [Devotion] feats like Divine Might, Divine Shield, Law Devotion, or Travel Devotion. Or heck, if you use an Illumian chassis, NaenHoon Persist shanananananananananananananananananananananananan igans. Persistant Shapechange? OH YEA!

1)Shoulda noticed the bard gets 'full' bab for level 2,3,4. Much better skills than most of the options too. Less of an issue if we do fractional bab, but I never 'expect' alternate rules.
Naen hoon persist? Illumians from Races of Destiny right? Thought their persist sigil thing was prepared casters only. I'll reread them again soon.

2)There's not really a way to do Suel+Sublime, and actually enter into Sublime at level 11, is there? Need 6 bab for Suel, so you can get to Suel 4 at level 10. But Sublime needs bardic music. And few PrC grant bardic music, most just stack it onto your existing bardic levels (I'll check C.Scoundrel/Song&Silence, but I don't think they exist). Be great if I could go: Bab6/Suel3/Bardic something1/Sublime X

3)Hmm, getting turn undead before level 20 would be nice. Again, gotta look at Naen hoon soon...

I'll cover more of the responses later.
Thanks again everyone.
2011-10-05, 05:10 PM
hex0

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Quote:

Originally Posted by dextercorvia

Suel gets to 3rd level spells in 4 levels, while Trapsmith takes 5 levels. Also, it is hard to get the skill requirements -- especially Disable Device 8 ranks, on a Full BAB class.

Actually they would arrive at the same time

Trapfinding Class 5/Trapsmith 5
Full BAB class 6/Suel 4

The problem is that neither prc gets enough spells to take Prestige Bard.

Beguiler does though, easily. Spellthief 6 would also be able to enter.
2011-10-05, 09:56 PM
T.G. Oskar

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build
All I can say is: needs more Ruathar. While Ruathar is a medium BAB class, it has a decent amount of skill points with which you can cover up some of the requirements (namely, the Spot and Listen requirements), and the last two levels are also very good if you need to cover up (because of full spellcasting).

It's hard to tackle, because you're either looking for BAB 16 or 10/10 SC progression at 20th level, which requires making a few sacrifices. Entering through a combination of Initiate of Milil + Harmonious Knight (for Perform as a class skill) might net you 6 levels of Paladin, enough for BAB 6th, thus fulfilling the 4 levels of Suel needed for 3rd level spellcasting.

I did something similar for the Test of Spite (never got approved, tho) with Knight of the Weave, which is FAR easier to qualify into (BAB +5, 1 rank in three skills, one of which is a Paladin class skill and the other two are needed for Sublime Chord), which could be entered reliably at 5th-6th level (depending on whether you used a Bard level or Initiate/Harmonious).

Another thing are the skills; how do you plan on tackling them? Human is the easiest way (Able Learner + Nymph's Kiss at 1st level plus the extra skill point means you can go with reliably low Int), and there are only few ways to get the needed requirements for SC (Guerrilla Scout from Heroes of Battle plus Education from the Eberron campaign setting or Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion to net Listen and Knowledge [arcana] as class skills). Suel requires even more skills to the list, but a dip in Bard could help immensely (even if only for 2-3 levels) to get Spellcraft, Concentration, Perform, Jump and Tumble. You're still looking at spreading your skill points in 5-8 skills, so you definitely need a not-bad score. Entering through Knight of the Weave makes it a bit less harsh.

And, as Keld mentions, it's a late bloomer. You'll be depending on your melee attacks (which are slightly weaker than the norm) for many levels, until SC catches up with your typical gish, and you'll be pretty feat-starved. Then, you have to figure out what exactly to do, since it's a build that can do a LOT of things but has little action economy to pull that off until 12th-13th (with Celerity to help you up). By the Bardic Music abilities, you could pull off some Dragonfire Inspiration (with Bard 2, Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage unless you're a Silverbrow Human, which loses the bonus skill points) or a decent bardic buff for a few times per day (better if you get a Vest of Legends); by spellcasting you could mostly go Bite of the X and get as pumped as possible, using divine feats to buff even more (Divine Might, for example), but you'll be spread pretty thin (and that goes without considering you might want to fight without armor for quite some time, unless you get a mithral breastplate/full plate w/Twilight). Suel has the advantage of a more varied spellcasting ability (you can choose from a lot of spells, and wand or scroll those that you don't use), but has a more stringent requirement; Knight of the Weave is easier to access but its spellcasting is more limited (it does have some paladin and cleric spells cast as arcane spells, though, AND you have to choose from that set). Both also play a bit more different; Suel has that anti-caster vibe, while Knight of the Weave has a larger inclination towards spellcasting (faster metamagic, for example), so you'd need to consider that into the build.

But, to simplify things:
- Consider Ruathar as a "patching" class when you need an easy access, medium BAB/full spellcasting PrC.
- Knight of the Weave is a reasonable substitution for Suel Arcanamach, but plays differently, in case you want to access SC faster.
- Try to get Turn Undead ASAP, so that you can use divine feats faster. Since that also implies getting limited spellcasting from the Paladin, you can replace that for a much-needed extra feat once you're ready to enter Suel.
- Make sure you have a plan to follow for the first 10 levels. You're building to enter SC from a different medium. Consider that at least two of your feats are taken, as well as nearly all your skill points, so you need to plan carefully.
2011-10-05, 10:22 PM
Keld Denar

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

If you want to save some feats trying to tie down your skills, cut the last 2 Paladin levels and grab 2 Duskblade. Its big, with all knowledges as class skills as well as IIRC, Descipher Script, it really gets you ready for Suel Arcanamach, especially with Combat Casting as a bonus feat.
2011-10-05, 10:33 PM
hex0

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Wouldnt human paragon be better than ruathar? you could choose perform as your adaptive skill instead, nab a bonus feat, 2/3 castin and 3/4 bab.
2011-10-05, 10:59 PM
T.G. Oskar

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build
Quote:

Originally Posted by hex0

Wouldnt human paragon be better than ruathar? you could choose perform as your adaptive skill instead, nab a bonus feat, 2/3 castin and 3/4 bab.

That depends, but Ruathar still wins.

Human Paragon requires you, at the very least, to be human (or a half-elf/half-orc with 1 level of their respective paragon class), and nets you a higher hit dice, adaptive skill, the bonus feat, and your choice of skills. Ruathar has one better save (Reflex, which is a very nice boon) and full spellcasting, which at first it may seem a bit less, but it has three major boons:
- It has ridiculously easy entry requirements. You'll meet at least one trying to enter Suel, and at least two trying to enter SC.
- Full spellcasting means you can achieve 9th level spells with relative ease.
- Essentially anyone can enter the PrC. Human Paragon is extremely limited in that regard.
While the best recommendation is to enter human in order to grab the bonus feat, the extra skill points and access to Able Learner, you can attempt to use another race and still get relatively easy access. Ruathar is mostly a patching class, because its class features are really weird (elves become friendlier, a choice between a few free magic items, low-light vision, elven senses, bonuses to attack and saving throws while at night, and extended lifetime), so you're not getting in because of them; you're getting in because of the medium BAB, 4+int skill points, decent skill list, good Reflex and Will saves AND full spellcasting.

Regarding Duskblade: hmm...not so sure. It has full BAB, good Fort and Will (big pluses), armored mage (so you can cast with light armor), Combat Casting (saves you a feat slot) and a few spells (namely, True Seeing and Swift Expeditious Retreat), plus it covers a lot of the skills, but it misses on Tumble (unless using the Ride->Tumble switch), which means cross-classing (unless you have Able Learner, in which case Bard has all needed skills), and would suggest an increased use of Intelligence, thus inducing MAD (Strength and Constitution, plus Charisma for spellcasting and Int for Duskblade abilities). It would work as Bard 1/Paladin 4/Duskblade 2 to get mostly everything, and it would still get 3rd level spells at 11th level, which would be a tad too late for full SC casting.
2011-10-11, 01:52 PM
herrhauptmann

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Just a few quick thoughts/questions:

Found "harmonious knight" Would that 'inspire courage' ability work for anything which requires Bardic Music? I'm sorta thinking it wouldn't.

~~Where is knight of the weave? Is it just another paladin substitution level, just with wizard flavor?~~ Found it, champions of valor. I can get into it faster than I can suel, but I need an extra level of KoW in order to get into Sublime Chord. (Also, the spell list looked pretty meh)

Even if I don't go Paladin 4 for turning, I could probably swap out Suel 3+4 for Sacred Exorcist 2. I lose out on a little of spell failure reduction, but oh well, items should cover most of it. While getting turn undead should be worth it.

Wondering now how Martial Arcanist works at level 21+, when I'd be taking Sacred Exorcist or something. Would my caster level then be BAB+ any CL gained after AC5?
2011-10-11, 08:00 PM
T.G. Oskar

Re: 3.5 Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord Build

Quote:

Originally Posted by herrhauptmann

Found "harmonious knight" Would that 'inspire courage' ability work for anything which requires Bardic Music? I'm sorta thinking it wouldn't.

Pretty much; thing is, in order for that to happen, the abilities of harmonious knight would have to qualify as bardic music, which they don't; otherwise, you could enter through other means (such as, say, the Inspire Courage effect of the Purple Dragon Knight PrC). It has to specifically say Bardic Music in order to work. Meaning, you could enter through Virtuoso and have the first few levels set up.

Quote:

~~Where is knight of the weave? Is it just another paladin substitution level, just with wizard flavor?~~ Found it, champions of valor. I can get into it faster than I can suel, but I need an extra level of KoW in order to get into Sublime Chord. (Also, the spell list looked pretty meh)

Yeah, it's kinda meh since it's extremely focused. It has a few divine spells merged in (Bless, Cure Light/Moderate Wounds) alongside some nice arcanes (Fly and Phantom Steed), so you need ways to expand that spell list. It's not really so bad for the first few levels, since it has quite a few of the gish spells (Shield, Divine Favor, Magic Weapon + Greater Magic Weapon, Resist Energy, Bull's Strength/Bear's Endurance), but you really suffer at 3rd level with the few spells you get.

However, while you might need an extra level of KotW, you get armored casting (light) which overpowers the benefit of Suel's arcane spell failure reduction to an extent (with Battle Caster + Mithral, pretty much entirely), and you get fast metamagic using your spell slots to power up other spells. This is cool if you managed to get Extend AND Persistent Spell, since you can use a 6th level spell slot to power up Persistent Spell on a really valuable higher-level spell, or a 4th level spell for Quicken, and thus get a similar effect to Divine Metamagic (which you couldn't get through normal means). It's a shame you can't use TU uses for Retrieve Spell, which could have been quite nice.

You can, though, take advantage of that level and add Spellsword at that level (if you can qualify for it), or Ruathar (just as good). It actually allows you to enter SC at 11th if you choose to enter without Bard levels, and at 12th if you choose to dip into Bard. It requires defining your focus, but if you have the way to define that focus, you can do very nice things (except using Sanctified spells; that way, you could ignore using armor and go straight for Luminous Armor; do remember you can use Starmantle, tho.)