Warhammer and WH40K RPGs II: Burning Witches, Heretics, and Fate

Inquisitor's Handbook is a good "general" one. It includes amuch wider variety of weapons, additional uses for skills, and an extra character class.

I feel like it might be wise to wait a bit until opinions have cooled more. I haven't played Only War, but I had heard really good things about it, and so the sheer amount of bile surrounding DH2 seems unrealistic to me. I think this may be a similar scenario to D&D 4E where there's a supervocal superupset community that'll fade away as people find merits to the new system and remember the flaws of the old.

Then again, all the 40kRPGs tend towards being wildly broken and clunky in all kinds of ways. I still remember the time I decided I wanted to run a sideplot involving some Eldar, only to see that the listing for Eldar in the Koronus Beastiary gave them like, 15 traits/talents I would have to look up one at a time.

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Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

I feel like it might be wise to wait a bit until opinions have cooled more. I haven't played Only War, but I had heard really good things about it, and so the sheer amount of bile surrounding DH2 seems unrealistic to me. I think this may be a similar scenario to D&D 4E where there's a supervocal superupset community that'll fade away as people find merits to the new system and remember the flaws of the old.

Then again, all the 40kRPGs tend towards being wildly broken and clunky in all kinds of ways. I still remember the time I decided I wanted to run a sideplot involving some Eldar, only to see that the listing for Eldar in the Koronus Beastiary gave them like, 15 traits/talents I would have to look up one at a time.

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This is why all of my villain sheets have all the effects of things written down on them. Looking those all up is an enormous pain.

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Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

I feel like it might be wise to wait a bit until opinions have cooled more. I haven't played Only War, but I had heard really good things about it, and so the sheer amount of bile surrounding DH2 seems unrealistic to me. I think this may be a similar scenario to D&D 4E where there's a supervocal superupset community that'll fade away as people find merits to the new system and remember the flaws of the old.

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The thing is unlike 4th ed D&D there is no new system, there is the exact same system as Only War, re-released with a new hat. They had a new system in development with the beta and completely scrapped it, that's why we're upset.

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Originally Posted by Prince Raven

The thing is unlike 4th ed D&D there is no new system, there is the exact same system as Only War, re-released with a new hat. They had a new system in development with the beta and completely scrapped it, that's why we're upset.

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My point is that everyone is upset though. All the reviews I'm seeing are "I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE ONE THING, BUT THEN IT WAS NOT THAT THING. TERRIBLE GAME NOW" instead of actual critiques of the product-as-it-is. Expressing outrage that Beta 1 Dark Heresy went away is at best completely unhelpful to the newcomer, and at worst massively obfuscating of the game's qualities and flaws.

Okay, allow me to be more helpful: Look up Only War reviews, pretend they say Dark Heresy 2nd edition.

OR

I have the original Dark Heresy 2nd ed. beta, PM me if you want it.

No one is saying that DH2e is bad, per se.

Here is what I most often hear, and consequently agree with and repeat:

An actual DH2 compliment:I would argue that character generation is downright awesome.

A Fantasy Flight Games Criticism: If I were FFG, I would be embarrassed to be charging 60USD for something that has been published with minor variation over (DH1) and over (RT) and over (DW) and over (BC) and over (OW). When they came out with something that deviated even slightly from the original WFRPG-style rules in the beta, people went nuts and demanded they change it back, as Shadow Archmage describes. But that happened in beta, and we got the OW combat rules instead. Which are great for a mechanics-heavy wargame, with fiddly subsystems and huge modifier tables.

An actual DH2 criticism: The lack of game rules or mechanics for investigation, ideally the core of any Dark Heresy game, while combat receives a majority of the mechanical focus is kind of silly. And it's one of the main reason every Dark Heresy forum on the internet constantly deals with an influx of people playing the game like a combat focused game and it not working really well.

With that said, none of the criticisms of the combat-heavy rules can't also be applied to DH1.

Heresy: It's also why 40kRPGs are the games that are most often converted to Fudge/Fate/Cortex/Rules light systems.

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Originally Posted by gdiddy

Heresy: It's also why 40kRPGs are the games that are most often converted to Fudge/Fate/Cortex/Rules light systems.

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I myself converted them to Mutants and Masterminds, but thats just my preference. its particularly useful for Space Marines and Tech Priests. that and you get to customize your Black Crusade character however you want! any mutation you can think of.

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Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

I myself converted them to Mutants and Masterminds, but thats just my preference. its particularly useful for Space Marines and Tech Priests. that and you get to customize your Black Crusade character however you want! any mutation you can think of.

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Awesome! I can really see that working! Do you have a link to your conversion rules?

Fun fact: Any imaginable system is more rules light than 40kRPGs, with the exceptions of HERO, FATAL, GURPS, or Palladium.

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Originally Posted by gdiddy

Awesome! I can really see that working! Do you have a link to your conversion rules?

Fun fact: Any imaginable system is more rules light than 40kRPGs, with the exceptions of HERO, FATAL, GURPS, or Palladium.

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I dunno, I found D&D 3.5 to be kinda heavy.

But yeah, the 40kRPGs have very little going for them in terms of really good design.

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Originally Posted by gdiddy

Awesome! I can really see that working! Do you have a link to your conversion rules?

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Not exactly....its more like a text document of all the powers I wrote up and such:

Spoiler: General

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General:
Chain Sword:
Damage, Penetrating 10, Removable, 16 points, rank 10

Lasgun:
Damage, Ranged, Removable, 8 points, rank 5

Hellgun:
Damage, Ranged, Removable, 16 points, rank 10

Carapace Armor:
Protection, Removable, 8 points, rank 10

Flak Armor:
Protection, Removable, 4 points, rank 5

Spoiler: Rogue Trader

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Rogue Trader:
Skills:
Deception
Persuasion
Close Combat
Ranged Combat
Expertise: Bartering
Insight

Advantages:
Fascinate
Inspire
Benefit (Wealth, rank 3-5)
Jack of All Trades
Leadership
Minion
Equipment

Spoiler: Inquisitor

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Inquisitor:
Skills:
Deception
Persuasion
Intimidation
Insight
Investigation
Ranged Combat
Close Combat
Stealth
Sleight of Hand
Perception

Advantages:
Security Clearance
Status (Inquisitor)
Benefit (Wealth 1-3)
Connected
Contacts
Equipment
Fearless
Leadership
Minion
Well-Informed
Favored Foe

Spoiler: Tech Priest

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Tech Priest:
Powers:
Electro-Graft
Comprehend (Machines), 20 points, rank 10

Respirator Unit:
Immunity (Suffocation Effects), 2 points, rank 2

Cranial Circuitry:
Quickness (Mental Tasks), 5 points, rank 10

Autosanguine:
Regeneration, 2 points, rank 2

Ferric Summons
Move Object, Limited to One Direction (Attraction), Limited to Metal, 5 points, rank 10

Luminen Blast
Damage, Ranged, 20 points, rank 10

Luminen Shock
Damage, 10 points, rank 10

Machinator Array:
Enhanced Strength, 10 points, rank 5
Enhanced Stamina, 10 points, rank 5

Maglev Transcendance:
Flight, 2 points, rank 1

Orthoproxy
Enhanced Will, 10 points, rank 10

Prosanguine:
Healing, Limited to Self, 10 points, rank 10

The Flesh Is Weak:
Protection, 10 points, rank 10


Skills:
Technology
Ranged Combat
Close Combat
Perception
Treatment
Vehicles
Expertise

Advantages:
Eidetic Memory
Equipment
Fearless
Great Endurance
Improvise Tools
Inventor
Minion

Spoiler: Space Marine

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Power Armor:
Protection, Removable, 8 points, rank 10
Enhanced Strength, Removable, 16 points, rank 10

Bolter:
Damage, Ranged, Removable, 16 points, rank 10

Force Staff:
Damage, Removable, 8 points, rank 10

Psychic Powers:
Damage, Ranged, Area (Burst), 10 alternate effects, 40 (30) points, rank 10
AE:
1. Move Object, Damaging, 30 points, rank 10
2. Mind Reading, Effortless,30 points, rank 10
3. Communication (Mental), Area, 25 points, rank 5
4. Illusion (All Senses), Limited to One Subject, Resistible (Will), 30 points, rank 10
5. Enhanced Parry, Selective, Area (Burst), 30 points, rank 10
6. Senses (Precognition), Sustained, 4 points, 4 ranks
7. Damage, Area (Cone), Penetrating 10, 30 points, rank 10
8. Teleport, Portal, 28 points, rank 7
9.
10.

Advantages:
Assessment
Close Attack
Range Attack
Diehard
Equipment
Favored Foe
Fearless
Great Endurance
Improved Aim
Inspire
Minion
Power Attack
Takedown
Teamwork

Skills:
Perception
Insight
Athletics
Intimidation
Vehicles
Persuasion
Technology
Treatment

I admit, its not complete as of now, but its more of a listing of what all these things would commonly have, a useful baseline if you will. the psyker powers in Space Marine can be used for any Psyker though, with some PL adjustments....and probably less alternate effects. now that I think about it, I should really get around to thinking out the alien races, and probably Black Crusade as well

Interesting! You might consider sharing it on google docs/dropbox for wider consumption. There are some fantastic rewrites that are widely circulated in the community.

Back to the DH2 rules, you can arguably make almost any rogue trader character or even a sororitas with the rules with the char gen system. (Though you'd need to write your own navigator/void combat rules.)

Sister of Battle:
Shrine world > Ministorum > Warrior
Earn your own Bolter and power armor with influence.

Well at least they kept something good from the beta.

Oh yes. It's not a failure by any stretch, except the rules copy pasted from Only War. (Literally copied and pasted, they forgot to switch out the Only War term Requisition for the DH2 term Influence on multiple pages.) Not bad, just lazy enough that nothing in this book is remotely worth $60.

Black Crusade question: Is there any way for a psyker to cloak or conceal their psychic nature and/or the use of their powers? There is an offhand reference in the core book under the Bastion of Iron Will talent to 'defending against the Psyniscience skill', but Psyniscience is a passive perception skill. Did one of the Tomes add a talent, skill use, power, or item that can block detection? It'd be very useful for my Tzeentchian telepath.

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Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Black Crusade question: Is there any way for a psyker to cloak or conceal their psychic nature and/or the use of their powers? There is an offhand reference in the core book under the Bastion of Iron Will talent to 'defending against the Psyniscience skill', but Psyniscience is a passive perception skill. Did one of the Tomes add a talent, skill use, power, or item that can block detection? It'd be very useful for my Tzeentchian telepath.

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Psyniscience is a full action to use, it isn't passive.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

Psyniscience is a full action to use, it isn't passive.

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Passive meaning 'not opposed', I wasn't referring to the action type used - thought it does in fact become a free action/reaction with the Warp Sense talent. There's no 'defense' against Psyniscience that I know of, hence my question.

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Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Passive meaning 'not opposed', I wasn't referring to the action type used. There's no 'defense' against Psyniscience that I know of, hence my question.

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I would presume that it would essentially make you invisible to the skill. Though that seems more powerful than is likely, so an opposed check of Willpower versus Perception would probably do.

Or take a leaf fro, RT and make psyniscience the skill to suppress psychic messaging and phenomena.

So, as per the Lathe Worlds, you can take Flesh is Weak to gain the Machine Trait 1 very early on as a Techpriest.

1 AP is nothing to sneeze at, but the real gem is not needing warmth or air. What mischief can my techpriest get up to with this? The obvious one is soaking my robe in some dangerous chemical (CHOLOFORM!?) and then giving out hugs, but I wondered if the forum had more specific ideas.

Hiding in toilets until your assassination target is alone and vulnerable.

Being on a ship and turning off the heater. Flooding a room with nasty gasses. Creating a device that effectively uses all the oxygen in a room rapidly(I dunno about the actual science, but something to do with fire probably). Pumping engine exhaust(read carbon monoxide but 40kified) into a closed area.

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Being on a ship and turning off the heater.

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Pah. Turn off the air!

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Originally Posted by dupersudi

Pumping engine exhaust(read carbon monoxide but 40kified) into a closed area.

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The Emperor's Holy Prometheum Engines do not output anything deadly, citizen. Their only byproducts are purified faith and Carbon Tetradeathicide, which despite the name and tendency to form skull-shaped clouds is known to be Perfectly Safe.

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Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul

The Emperor's Holy Prometheum Engines do not output anything deadly, citizen. Their only byproducts are purified faith and Carbon Tetradeathicide, which despite the name and tendency to form skull-shaped clouds is known to be Perfectly Safe.

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Besides, only anointed priests of the Mechanicus are authorized to conduct the rites of repair on vehicles in enclosed spaces. Any civilians or soldiers found unconscious or dead in close proximity to an operative vehicle is to be executed, as the Emperor has plainly punished them for their heresy and temerity.

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Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Besides, only anointed priests of the Mechanicus are authorized to conduct the rites of repair on vehicles in enclosed spaces. Any civilians or soldiers found unconscious or dead in close proximity to an operative vehicle is to be executed, as the Emperor has plainly punished them for their heresy and temerity.

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Hmm... but how does one execute the dead?

I guess... well if you... hmmm...

I'll be in my laboratory! Let me know if too many of the warp-sensitive canaries die.

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Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

Hmm... but how does one execute the dead?

I guess... well if you... hmmm...

I'll be in my laboratory! Let me know if too many of the warp-sensitive canaries die.

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Full instructions on conducting a proper formal execution of dead citizens can be found in High Arbitrator Oberberin's thousand-page dissertation on proper punishment for all conceivable crimes, assuming you have the clearance necessary to view it.

And if you don't, just shoot them. It works for everything else, it'll work for dead people.

Note: If shooting a dead person does not kill them, locate your nearest Priest with all possible haste. You do not need to know why.

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Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

And if you don't, just shoot them. It works for everything else, it'll work for dead people.

Note: If shooting a dead person does not kill them, locate your nearest Priest with all possible haste. You do not need to know why.

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Dying indicates a sharp uptake in the subject's level of deadness. Shooting someone who is already saturated with death does not increase their corpse-status. Ergo, in order to maximize execution effectiveness, DEAD must be made not-equal to 1 before the killing.

So...I just had one of those sessions where it started one way, and it ended VERY differently than what I had planned.

Let me explain. My Deathwatch Kill team explored a necron tomb and ended up transported back in time by Cryptek Rahoz, the chronomancer. They didn't know they were sent back in time, all they knew was that they were on a world with a geography very different from Skapula. They set out to explore verdant grassland with rolling hills, and ended up approaching a large black mountain that started shooting lightning at them. Figuring(correctly), that it was a Necron base, they turned tail and ran. Eventually they discovered a village full of redneck citizens who had never heard of the Imperium. After fighting off some deathmarks, they decided to set off for some ruins to the south that might have contained imperial ships. They also take all of the villagers. They find the ships in the south, which contains a teleoportium that will be able to transport inside the Necron mountain. When they do so, I roll perils of the warp for going unprotected into the warp for a small time. I roll a 97, so suddenly a daemon prince pops into the mountain and starts slaughtering warriors left and right. This sets of a distresss signal on both ends, and before they know it necrons and daemons are phasing in left and right, with them playing only a small part. They run on in to a generator that powers the necron time machine to bring them back, and THIS is where things go pear shaped. You see, the Cryptek hijacked their voxes and started talking to them about how they cannot change time, that Skapula is going to be destroyed because they've awakened this threat. It is at this point that the techmarine, who is fully interfacing with the systems of the time machine, decides to put the middle finger up to fate. He spends a fate point to go to a completely different place-the Iron Bastion in the outer reach, WITH all of the civilians. He burns a fate point, and off they go.

So now they have teleported into a top secret watch station powered by a secret necron artifact with 250 time displaced hillbillies. They also know about the Order Cronus and want their own time machine.

So I have a question for you all, I like a lot of the Gifts of the Gods and I dislike how you can't get them once you ascend to daemon-princedom. Do you all think it would be unbalanced to make another unaligned daemonic gift for fairly cheap(say 5 favor) for some of the more mechanically interesting gifts of the gods that don't step on the toes of preexisting daemonic gifts? Which gifts would you recommend for this?