Priest: new base class [3.S] [WIP, PEACH]

PRIEST

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Sometimes, you need a divine caster who isn't either breaking the game, or is itself just plain broken. When creating my new campaign setting, I found myself in need of one. Specifically, one which was modular enough that it seemed like a uniquely different class using the same mechanics depending on the deity they worship. I also didn't want the ClericZilla's problem of 'I can do everything, and that too'.

Now, I really like the Mysteries mechanics of the Shadowcaster from ToM, but it is underpowered because the abilities really aren't all that powerful, they have such a limited usage, and they really can't do anything once they run out of Mysteries.

The Priest class uses a similar system, but has supplemental abilities in addition to their Devotionals, and have access to some more powerful effects.

Table 1-1: The Priest
Hit Die: D4
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2| Deity Patron, Novitiate Devotionals, Fundamentals of Faith, Least Domain Bonus

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3| bonus feats

3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3| Purity of Faith

4th|+2|+1|+1|+4| Bonus Fundamental

5th|+2|+1|+1|+4| Lesser Domain Bonus

6th|+3|+2|+2|+5| Divine Blessing

7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Novitiate Devotionals (Sp), Initiate Devotionals

8th|+4|+2|+2|+6| Bonus Fundamental

9th|+4|+3|+3|+6| Shining Bastion of Faith

10th|+5|+3|+3|+7| Greater Domain Bonus

11th|+5|+3|+3|+7| Positive/Negative Energy Resistance 10

12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8| Bonus Fundamental

13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8| Novitiate Devotionals (Su), Initiate Devotionals (Sp), Deacon Devotionals

14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9| Greater Divine Blessing

15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9| High Domain Bonus

16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10| Bonus Fundamental

17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10| Positive/Negative Energy Resistance 20

18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|

19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|

20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Bonus Fundamental, Divine Domain Bonus[/table]Class Skills (4+Int mod): Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

Table 1-2: Uses per Devotional per day
{table=head]Level | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
1st | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
2nd | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
3rd | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
4th | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
5th | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
6th | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
7th | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - |
8th | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - |
9th | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - |
10th | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - |
11th | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - |
12th | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - |
13th | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - |
14th | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - |
15th | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - |
16th | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - |
17th | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
18th | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 |
19th | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 |
20th | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 |
[/table]

Orison List

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Stabilize: Automatically stabilizes target (1 per round/CL) and brings target to precisely 0 hit points, if in the negatives.
Detect Poison
Purify Food/Drink
Light
Detect Magic
Detect [alignment opposite of deity]
Guidance

CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiency Priests are normally only proficient with simple weapons and no armor. Some domain bonuses may affect this.

Deity Patron: A Priest *MUST* choose a deity to worship. Once that deity is chosen, it cannot be changed without an extreme amount of effort. To switch deities, you must first seek out a priest of that deity, then explain to them why you wish to switch faiths, then deal with any repercussions your current deity patron may decide to inflict on you, then be Atoned by the cleric of a new deity. Then you must wipe your Devotionals list, and start all over. However, you still must start out with six Novitiate devotionals, even if you are over level 7, and if you are over level 13, you must also have at least six Initiate devotionals. You may not suddenly switch deities, then race up a couple of Domains. Sorry, it does not work that way.

Fundamentals of Faith. At 1st level, a Priest is initiated to the very fundamentals of their faith. He may take a number of Orisons from the Cleric's spell list equal to his Wisdom modifier. These are considered to be Spell-Like Abilities usable an unlimited number of times per day. At level 7, they become Supernatural abilities. He also receives bonus fundamentals as he progresses.

Devotionals: Priests do not cast spells, per se, as in the vanican casting system. Instead, they gain Devotionals, which they use. They start off with one 1st level Devotional, and gain one additional Devotional per level. Up to level 6, they may only choose a Novitiate Devotional. At 7th level, they gain access to Initiate devotionals, and at 13th, they get access to Deacon Devotionals. Priests may choose from any domain spell list which their deity offers.

For purposes of a Priest, a Novitiate devotion is a 1st through 3rd level devotion, an Initiate devotion is a 4th through 6th, and a Deacon is 7th - 9th.

Devotionals progress in very specific stages. You need two devotionals of a previous level in order to gain a devotional of the next level. To gain a higher level Devotional, you also need to have all the lower level Devotionals in that domain. Thus, to pick up the Cure Wounds devotional from the Healing domain, you need two 1st level Devotionals, one of which must be Cure Light Wounds.

When you are capable of only casting Novitiate Devotionals, they are considered to be cast as Divine spells. As you level, your connection with your deity patron becomes stronger, and lesser devotionals increase in power as this happens. Six levels after you gain access to a Devotional level (regardless of if you actually got one at that level), that level of Devotional becomes a Spell-Like Ability, rather than a spell. Six levels after that, it goes from (Sp) to (Su).

You can, if you so choose, learn a Devotional more than once. Doing so grants you another set of uses per day of that Devotional.

You can use each devotional you know a certain number of times per day depending on whether it is cast as a spell (once), spell-like ability (twice), or a supernatural ability (three times). See Table 1-2 for exact numbers. However, if you don't have any devotionals of that level (for example, if you have no 4th level devotionals at level 7), then you cannot make use of those uses.

Unlike traditional vanican casters, you do not gain bonus devotionals for high ability score. Although you don't prepare spells, you must still rest for 8 hours and meditate for an hour each day to regain your use of Devotionals, just as a spontaneous caster must rest and meditate to regain use of spell slots.

In order to cast a Devotional, you must have a Wisdom score of at least 10+mystery's level. The save DC for your Devotionals is 10 + mystery level + Wis mod. Even though as a Priest you do not cast spells in the traditional sense, your levels in this class count for the purpose of determining your overall divine spellcaster level. Prestige classes which advance your divine spellcasting also advance your Devotionals and Fundamentals progression.

Domain bonus: Priests are more closely tied to their patron deities than Clerics are, and as such, they are more... focused. But within that focus, they become more powerful. A Priest gains a Least Domain bonus for each domain in which he has a 1st level Devotional in. At 5th level, he gains a Lesser Domain Bonus for every Domain he has a 2nd level Devotional in. At 10th level, he gains a Greater Domain Bonus for every domain he has a 4th level Devotion in, at 15th, he gains a High Domain Bonus for every Domain he has a 6th level Devotion in, and at 20th, he gains a Divine Domain Bonus for every Domain he has an 8th level Devotion in. If a priest qualifies for a domain bonus after he gains access to it (for example, if he gains a 4th level devotion in a domain at level 12), he also gains that domain bonus at that time.

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{table=head]

Domain

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Least

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Lesser

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Greater

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High

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Divine

Healing | Lay on Hands | Healing Reach | Aura of Healing | Empower Healing | Purification
War | 3/4 BAB | Weapon Specialization | Inspire Courage | Haste | Castigate
Protection | HD increase | Divine Grace | Shared Divine Grace | Divine Protection | Mass Divine Protection[/table]

* Still a work in progress, need to come up with domain bonuses for all the domains I am using, but this gives you an idea.

Bonus Feats: Beginning at 2nd level, you gain bonus feats based on your breadth and depth of devotion to your deity. For every two different domains you have a Novitiate Devotional in, you gain a bonus feat. For every two different domains you have an Initiate devotional in, you gain a bonus feat. And for every two different domains you have a Deacon devotional in, you gain a bonus feat. You must still meet any prerequisites for the feat in order to select it. The list of feats includes any Devotional feat.

Purity of Faith: At 3rd level, a Priest's faith and devotion to his patron deity allows him to shrug off the effects of outside controlling forces. He gains his Charisma bonus to his Will saves to resist any mind-affecting effect. Also, if any mind-controlling effect attempts to force him to act in a manner inappropriate for a priest of his patron deity, the effect automatically fails and ends immediately.

Divine Blessing: At 6th level, a Priest becomes immune to an and all curses. This also allows him to remove a cursed item once it activates, as though a Remove Curse spell had been cast on the object. At 14th level, he also becomes immune to death effects and energy drain.

Shining Bastion of Faith: At 9th level, a Cleric becomes immune to detrimental mind-affecting abilities (he may allow an effect to affect him as a free action). In addition, he grants a divine bonus equal to his Charisma modifier on saving throws against mind-affecting abilities to all allies within 30' of him. A person may not benefit from more than one priest's Shining Bastion of Faith, no matter how many may be within 30' of him, only the highest bonus is granted.

Positive/Negative Energy Resistance: A Priest is used to working with divine forces, and develops a tolerance to it, and it also helps withstand the effects of the opposing flavor. He gains energy resistance 10 to Positive and Negative energy damage at level 11, and 20 at 17. This does not affect anything which heals the Priest, only those effects which cause damage.

Feats

Feats with the [Devotional] tag are considered to be Devotional feats, and can be picked up by the Priest with any bonus feats he might obtain. Most of them are 'metadevotional', much like metamagic feats which apply to the devotionals.

Metadevotional feats do not increase casting time. Applying Metamagic feats to a Devotional cast as a spell, however, still does as normal. You may also apply the various Empower/Maximize/etc.. SLA feats to those Devotionals which are SLA's, and the same with those feats which affect (Su) when applied to a Devotional used as a supernatural ability. Having said that, using the metadevotional feat is probably a better way to go, all things considered.

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Domain Focus [Devotional]
Choose a Domain you have at least one Devotional in. You function at +1 Caster Level (only for purposes of level-dependent variables in your Devotionals) when using Devotionals from this domain, and also gain a +1 DC to the saving throws of any devotionals in this domain.

You can gain this feat multiple times. Each additional time it is purchased, you may apply it to a new domain

Greater Domain Focus [Devotional]
Prerequisite: Domain Focus

As Domain Focus, but gains an additional +1 to effective caster level for purposes of level-dependent variables and DC of saving throws within the chosen domain.

You may only take this feat for a domain which you have already purchased Domain Focus in.

You may select this feat multiple times. Each additional time it is purchased, you may apply it to a new domain which you already have Domain Focus in.

Empower Devotional [Devotional] [Metadevotional]
Prerequisite: At least one Devotional known, any other Metashadow feat

When you chose this feat, select ONE devotional. That devotional may now be Empowered. This feat is not limited in uses, because the devotional's uses per day are inherently limited.

You may select this feat more than once. Each additional purchase of this feat allows you to apply it to a different Devotional you know.

Enlarge Devotional [Devotional] [Metadevotional]

When you chose this feat, select ONE devotional. The range on this devotional is doubled. This feat is not limited in uses, because the devotional's uses per day are inherently limited.

You may select this feat more than once. Each additional purchase of this feat allows you to apply it to a different Devotional you know.

This feat may only be applied to Devotionals with a range of Close, Medium, or Long

Extend Devotional [Devotional] [Metadevotional]

When you chose this feat, select ONE devotional. That devotional's duration is doubled. This feat is not limited in uses, because the devotional's uses per day are inherently limited.

You may select this feat more than once. Each additional purchase of this feat allows you to apply it to a different Devotional you know.

This metadevotional feat may only be applied to a Devotional with a Duration greater than Instantaneous. While it is possible to apply this to a devotional with a duration of Permanent, there is no further effect from it.

Favored Devotional [Devotional]
Prerequisite: At least one Devotional known

Select a Devotional you know. Your ability to use that particular devotional increases. If you could cast it as a spell, it is now used as a Spell-Like Ability. If you could use it as a Spell-Like Ability, you may now use it as a (Su) ability. If it is already a (Su) ability, then you gain one additional use from it. Increasing from Spell/Sp/Su increases number of uses per day as per normal. This feat 'grows' with the devotional, maintaining a constant one category higher until it would normally hit Su, then it provides the additional use per day.

This may only be selected for a given Devotional once. Purchasing this feat more than once allows you to apply it to different devotionals.

Maximize Devotional [Devotional] [Metadevotional]
Prerequisite: At least one devotional, and any two other Devotional feats

When you chose this feat, select ONE devotional. That devotional may now be Maximized. This feat is not limited in uses, because the devotional's uses per day are inherently limited.

You may select this feat more than once. Each additional purchase of this feat allows you to apply it to a different Devotional you know.

Quicken Devotional [Devotional] [Metadevotional]
Prerequisite: At least three devotional feats, Priest level 11 or higher

When you chose this feat, select ONE devotional. That devotional may now be Quickened. This feat is not limited in uses, because the devotional's uses per day are inherently limited.

You may select this feat more than once. Each additional purchase of this feat allows you to apply it to a different Devotional you know.

Reach Devotional [Devotional] [Metadevotional]

When you purchase this feat, you may chose ONE devotional with a range of Touch. You may now use that Devotional on targets out to 30'. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to affect the target.

You may select this feat more than once. Each additional purchase of this feat allows you to apply it to a different Devotional with a range of Touch you know.

So far the class is looking pretty good as a replacment for the cleric, and(at least so far) apears easier to make one priest look different mechanics-wise from another of a different deity, than to make one cleric look different from another of a different deity would be.

oooh, this looks fun. are the devotionals just the spells from the cleric spell list, or are you going to write up specific devotionals?

Fundamentals of faith could provide infinite healing. While this doesn't personally bother me because of the small amount, there are alot of people irked by something like that. May I suggest adding a clause that limits the use of healing cantrips?

You refer to devotionals as mysteries when you mention the save.
I really like devotionals though, mainly because they are based off of shadowcasting (which has always been a favorite of mind).
And I'm goint to ask the same thing as eledragon, are you going to use spells already made, or are you going to create your own devotionals? (I hope you create your own, as it would add even more unique flavor to thh class).

Do you only have access to devotional feats when you gain bonus feats? May I suggest allowing exalted feats? They are a bit powerful, but...

Healing cantrips can be used at will in pathfinder, so I dought anyone will bring it up as an issue.

Edit: also are you planning on making more domain abilities?, they look pretty instresting so far.

Cure Minor Wounds doesn't exist in Pathfinder. It was replaced with Stabilize. Inflict Minor with Bleed. So no, no infinite healing in pathfinder.

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Originally Posted by Eledragon

oooh, this looks fun. are the devotionals just the spells from the cleric spell list, or are you going to write up specific devotionals?

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For now, Devotionals are chosen from the domain spell list for the domains the deity provides.

So, if your deity offers Healing, Protection, Good, and Sun domains, then your options for your first Devotional is: Cure Light Wounds, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, or Endure Elements.

Let's say you choose Cure Light Wounds as your first devotional.

Now, you level up again. You can't pick Cure Wounds until you have another first level Devotional. So, your options are ProEvil, Sanctuary, or Endure Elements.

Let's say you're running in an environmentally unfriendly game, so you pick up Endure Elements.

At 3rd level, you can now select a 2nd level Devotional, however you have to already have the 1st level Devotional to get it. So your options at this point are: Cure Wounds, ProEvil, Sanctuary, or Heat Metal.

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Originally Posted by eftexar

Fundamentals of faith could provide infinite healing. While this doesn't personally bother me because of the small amount, there are alot of people irked by something like that. May I suggest adding a clause that limits the use of healing cantrips?

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I'm not worried about infinite out of combat healing, really. Due to action economy, it's definitely not viable in combat, since you're doing it one point at a time. However, I may take a page from Pathfinder and turn Cure Minor Wounds into Stabilize if it becomes a problem.

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You refer to devotionals as mysteries when you mention the save.
I really like devotionals though, mainly because they are based off of shadowcasting (which has always been a favorite of mind).

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Fixed this typo. Thanks for catching it.

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And I'm goint to ask the same thing as eledragon, are you going to use spells already made, or are you going to create your own devotionals? (I hope you create your own, as it would add even more unique flavor to thh class).

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Eventually, I hope to, however I'd like to playtest the class, which means re-using domain spells as devotionals to make sure the class is mechanically viable.

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Do you only have access to devotional feats when you gain bonus feats? May I suggest allowing exalted feats? They are a bit powerful, but...

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I despise BoED/BoVD with a passion, and absolutely refuse to acknowledge Exalted/Vile feats.

And yes, the only feats you can gain access to are Devotional feats. However, these feats apply universally to devotionals, much in the same way that Metashadow feats work.

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Originally Posted by Togath

Edit: also are you planning on making more domain abilities?, they look pretty instresting so far.

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Absolutely! I'm considering Domain Abilities to be more along the lines of either at-will usage (to give them something to do when they run out of devotionals), or additional resources (turn undead, lay on hands).

This could benefit from spellcheck and a rewrite designed to simplify the sentence structure. The maze of subordinate clauses keeps distracting me from the class features.

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Originally Posted by jiriku

This could benefit from spellcheck and a rewrite designed to simplify the sentence structure. The maze of subordinate clauses keeps distracting me from the class features.

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For some reason, the pre-edited edition ended up getting posted. Fixed typos and spellcheck. Thanks for catching that.

As for the 'maze of subordinate clauses'... I would submit that it is easier to read than WotC material, and further submit that this isn't a doctoral thesis.

The issue with Cure Minor Wounds as an at-will spell isn't any kind of balance problem, it's a matter of style.

Along with Endure Elements; Create Food and Water; and Purify Food and Drink, you're basically trivialising survival. With unlimited healing, your players will rarely suffer any serious setback -- as long as you can win a fight, any damage you suffered will be completely gone before the next. Without unlimited healing, you might find things become more interesting.

Presumably there are many groups who'd prefer not to deal with such things. However, even then, it might be better if those groups dealt with survival and healing through magic items or something comparable (ToME-style inscriptions, maybe?), which would help to ensure that nobody has to deal with survival, instead of only resolving the issue for casters.

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Originally Posted by lesser_minion

The issue with Cure Minor Wounds as an at-will spell isn't any kind of balance problem, it's a matter of style.

Along with Endure Elements; Create Food and Water; and Purify Food and Drink, you're basically trivialising survival. With unlimited healing, your players will rarely suffer any serious setback -- as long as you can win a fight, any damage you suffered will be completely gone before the next. Without unlimited healing, you might find things become more interesting.

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Endure Elements is a 1st level Devotional. That means, until level 7, you can use it 1/day. That's good for one person. And that's IF your deity has the Sun domain, and IF you decide to pick it up over some other devotional.

There might be a way to Chain it, if you spend feats on the MetaDevotional feats (which I have yet to implement), however that means you have both a Devotional (of which you ONLY get 20, and considering how they require lower level devotionals for the higher level ones, that means you have to branch out more than you might otherwise want to), AND a feat investment. So that's a LOT of resources the Priest is dumping into a trick to make them immune to environmental heat and cold. If he wants to do that, great. He should be able to be effective.

Create Food and Water is not a domain spell, so a Priest will never have access to it.

Remember, Priests only get access to domain spells from the deity they serve, and they MUST serve a deity, no priests of causes here.

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Presumably there are many groups who'd prefer not to deal with such things. However, even then, it might be better if those groups dealt with survival and healing through magic items or something comparable (ToME-style inscriptions, maybe?), which would help to ensure that nobody has to deal with survival, instead of only resolving the issue for casters.

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If the Priest wishes to devote a significant portion of the nonrenewable resources available to him, then yea, he should be able to do that for his part. However, it will almost certainly limit his more powerful options, such as higher level devotionals.

I was speaking generally, since you appear to be planning to re-write D&D as a whole, rather than specifically on the subject of this class.

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Originally Posted by lesser_minion

I was speaking generally, since you appear to be planning to re-write D&D as a whole, rather than specifically on the subject of this class.

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Hmmm... you have a point, however as this is a discussion of the Priest class, I will answer these concerns in the following manner:

Quite bluntly, it's not easy to get access to divine spells anymore. The Priest only gets domain spells, and even then, has a very limited usage of them. He also gets certain additional abilities which he uses to supplement and augment his spells, but by and large, his spell choice and usage is more limited than a Cleric's.

On the larger scale, the primary thing I have done to avoid this problem is:

a) extremely limited access to such combinations, and
b) limited character's resources so that if they DO decide to set up such combinations, that it will pretty much define the character.

The Priest is going to be the primary divine caster, the chassis for which 90% of all divine classes will be based on. You may wish to try to 'trick out' your ride for racing, but if the chassis cannot handle the load, the attempt is not going to be successful.

The other divine classes are going to be Crusader and probably something akin to a Marshall-esque 'paladin', with more a focus on divine augmentation than spellcasting.

Also, to address magical items, I'd like to point out that the campaign world is a *VERY* low magic item world. Quite bluntly, there aren't any wizards able to produce them anymore, so any magic items are either created from specific and specialized classes (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage), with access to specific and specialized spell lists, or are pre-apocalyptic artifacts which cannot be duplicated. A +1 sword is a significant find. There are no more iMagic shops where you can simply download your 'wand of Win' app and use it indefinitely.

Does this answer your question?

Well, yes, although it wasn't really a question, it was meant as a suggestion.

Why is it people have a problem with cure minor wounds working at will?, It would take 100 rounds(so 10 minutes) in order to heal a low level fighter from 0 HP back to his full(or likely slightly less than full)HP, any good DM won't let players rest that easy in a combat area, such as a building being raided by zombies, or a graveyard being raided by zombies., And out of a combat area it makes sense to heal up, and the PCs are likely to heal back to full regardless of a low level spell being at will, and will likely simply use a higher level spell, and then sleep.

Updated Orison list to prevent infinite healing cheese.

I like what your doing here! Great start.

Just a random thought for the Luck Domain.

Least - Regular luck power at 1/day
Lesser - 2/day
Greater - 3/day and may now use an immediate action to grant it to an ally you can see
High - 4/day
Divine - 5/day and may use an immediate action to force an opponent to reroll.

In any case, if you use the ability in any fashion, you may not use it again until your next turn.

Dunno just something that immediately sprung to mind.

Again, how is 1HP per round "infinite healing cheese"?(not an insult, I'm really not getting it)

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Originally Posted by TwylyghT

I like what your doing here! Great start.

Just a random thought for the Luck Domain.

Least - Regular luck power at 1/day
Lesser - 2/day
Greater - 3/day and may now use an immediate action to grant it to an ally you can see
High - 4/day
Divine - 5/day and may use an immediate action to force an opponent to reroll.

In any case, if you use the ability in any fashion, you may not use it again until your next turn.

Dunno just something that immediately sprung to mind.

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I think I forgot to emphasise that Priests automatically get all domain granted abilities their deity patron grants... so the least version is kind of sub-par.

I do see where you're going with this, though, and I like the concept. However, Luck is one of the domains that does get a game-breaking spell (Miracle), so care must be taken, either to limit whatever else the deity who offers the Luck domain gets (so the build is a 'late bloomer'), or to otherwise limit the power of the Luck domain (essentially, the luck domain trades off powerful Domain Abilities because they get freekin' Miracle).

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Originally Posted by Togath

Again, how is 1HP per round "infinite healing cheese"?(not an insult, I'm really not getting it)

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It's all about player perspectives, and levels of suspense.

If a player *knows* that he has unlimited out of combat healing, he won't worry about getting a hit or two, because he knows his healbot can just bring him back up out of combat.

However, if a player knows that his healbot can run out of healing fairly easily, then suddenly he's got a higher level of suspense in combat, and players might not get 'topped off' between combats, making an endurance run feel a lot more like an actual challenge.

It's really the same problem I have with Save States or Reset Buttons like Rope Trick or MMM... if the party knows they can nova and recover completely between combat, they have no reason to NOT nova. However, if they don't have any mechanics by which they have unlimited access to recovery between combats, then they will be more likely to conserve resources, and play it a bit more carefully.

Conversely, it is a greater sense of accomplishment when the players achieve a goal. "Yea, we didn't go with any of your cheat-mode-enabled unlimited out-of-combat healing... we did it the MAN'S way", that kind of thing.

It strikes me that 18th and 19th are completely dead levels. You don't gain anything by taking them, except for coming one step closer to the divine domain bonus. Considering that every other level in the class gives you something, perhaps implementing two more class features (minor, if you're satisfied with the class features as-is) to fill those levels would be a good thing?

Right now, levels 18 and 19 are dead levels. The capstone seems uninspiring as well. I have trouble seeing anyone interested in mechanical advantages taking this class past level 17. (someone posted before me, but it's important enough to repeat)

Also, I would suggest giving priests weapon proficiency in their diety's weapon, or weapon focus if their diety's weapon is simple. Any D&D player who comes into your system doesn't want to be useless at defending themselves, and it seems like you will have few strictly offensive spells for the class, meaning if a baddie closes with them, they are screwed. I'm not saying make them full melee, but at least let them defend themselves.

Also, your spell progression is rather stunted towards higher levels. Don't increase the uses per day all at once, spread them out. Make it look more like the sorcerer spells-cast-per-day (although obviously not as many spells per day)

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Originally Posted by Omeganaut

Right now, levels 18 and 19 are dead levels. The capstone seems uninspiring as well. I have trouble seeing anyone interested in mechanical advantages taking this class past level 17. (someone posted before me, but it's important enough to repeat)

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Hmm... this is worth repeating, true. However, I'd need to figure out what works well here, without either making the class over-the-top or just by being 'meh, it's just filler'. It's a delicate balance. If you have any suggestions to offer, I'm all ears!

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Also, I would suggest giving priests weapon proficiency in their diety's weapon, or weapon focus if their diety's weapon is simple. Any D&D player who comes into your system doesn't want to be useless at defending themselves, and it seems like you will have few strictly offensive spells for the class, meaning if a baddie closes with them, they are screwed. I'm not saying make them full melee, but at least let them defend themselves.

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Depends on the deity you choose. Remember, War domain automatically gains weapon proficiency/focus in deity's weapon (and the least domain bonus from War domain is a 3/4 BAB), and Sun domain has a lot of blasty spells. So, a Priest of a war/sun deity (one of them currently is) will have precisely this.

A Priest of a pacifistic deity, however, would likely NOT want to be mixing it up in combat. Rather, he will be using spells like Sanctuary to prevent from being targeted while being a heal/buffbot.

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Also, your spell progression is rather stunted towards higher levels. Don't increase the uses per day all at once, spread them out. Make it look more like the sorcerer spells-cast-per-day (although obviously not as many spells per day)

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Did you read the description of why it does this? When you get Devotionals as Spells, they're 1/day. When they're SLA's, they're 2/day, and when they're SU, they're 3/day.

Considering that these numbers are *per devotional*, they've actually got quite a bit more depth than a sorcerer has.

Or are you saying use a graduating scale, so that a Devotional level goes (SP) at (level obtained + 6)? That... might be an idea, actually. It somewhat nerfs their casting list, but at the same time, it also gives them a solid progression, AND gives them something beneficial at 18 (6th level Devotionals go SLA and double output).

EDIT: Devotionals chart updated to reflect this suggestion. Level 18 now gets 4th level Devotionals as (Su), and 7th level devotionals as (Sp). Which is pretty dang huge. Level 19 is still a dead level. Level 20... we need some dang good capstones for the domains.

I did miss that part about how the magical affect is cast affecting how many times it could be cast. I just wonder how important that is to the class, since you have a table anyway. I'd just take that part out entirely and let the table decide uses per day.

As for the question of giving proficiency in the diety's weapon, I'd give the War domain proficiency with all martial weapons. It makes sense that he would train for war. And your healer/buffer is about the only character option that can't save itself if attacked by anything. It couldn't defend itself against a cat at level 1. While you want games to be exciting, that defenseless healer will be the first to die in an ambush, as all he can do is heal and buff on his turn. Plus, if he runs into anything with a good will save (DC 11+Wis), it won't work. And the part about devotionals confuses me. Do they choose those straight off of the cleric spell list, because that doesn't really make much of a difference in Clericzilla-ness. However, if you are choosing off of a list, then your diety must have the domain that Sanctuary falls under.

Another small point. Why don't they have Knowledge(The Planes), (History), or Diplomacy on their skill list? I can see you losing Arcana, and the additions make sense compared to Cleric.

Finally, Since you didn't include turn undead, I'm assuming this class is not going to be strong v. undead like the original cleric. Just wanted to point that out.

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Originally Posted by Omeganaut

I did miss that part about how the magical affect is cast affecting how many times it could be cast. I just wonder how important that is to the class, since you have a table anyway. I'd just take that part out entirely and let the table decide uses per day.

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It's rather important to the class, because it demonstrates a graduating mastery of the abilities. Not only do you gain more uses per day per devotional, but it also becomes easier to use.

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As for the question of giving proficiency in the diety's weapon, I'd give the War domain proficiency with all martial weapons. It makes sense that he would train for war. And your healer/buffer is about the only character option that can't save itself if attacked by anything. It couldn't defend itself against a cat at level 1. While you want games to be exciting, that defenseless healer will be the first to die in an ambush, as all he can do is heal and buff on his turn. Plus, if he runs into anything with a good will save (DC 11+Wis), it won't work. And the part about devotionals confuses me. Do they choose those straight off of the cleric spell list, because that doesn't really make much of a difference in Clericzilla-ness. However, if you are choosing off of a list, then your diety must have the domain that Sanctuary falls under.

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I thought I had made that clear. A Priest may choose Devotionals only from the domains the patron deity has access to.

Your heal/buffbot will have access to a domain ability which reproduces a Sanctuary efect, with a scaling DC of 10+ 1/2 Priest level + Wis mod. I just haven't gotten that far yet. The domain will be called 'Tranquility', and will include things like Sanctuary, Calm Emotions, and others along those lines.

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Another small point. Why don't they have Knowledge(The Planes), (History), or Diplomacy on their skill list? I can see you losing Arcana, and the additions make sense compared to Cleric.

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Certain domains grant access to other knowledge spells (the Knowledge domain grants access to all of them). However, a martial deity with martial priests would not necessarily know the finer details about the planes, other than demons and angels and the like, which is covered under Knowledge (Religion).

As far as Diplomacy... that will also be in a domain, but not all priests are particularly diplomatic.

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Finally, Since you didn't include turn undead, I'm assuming this class is not going to be strong v. undead like the original cleric. Just wanted to point that out.

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That is correct. There might be a sub-deity with access to Turn Undead and the Glory domain, but really, any Cleric with zero optimization simply laughs at any undead challenge. And turn attempts, other than being used to trivialize encounters, were being used to fuel things which broke the top off of the power curve.

Since my goal is to de-trivialize encounters, and to keep the power level around T3, turn undead really didn't make sense here.

This is still a work in progress, and is being based on a modular design. So while the 'base class' seems to be exceedingly limited, their deity choice will activate many secondary abilities which make up for it.

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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

It's rather important to the class, because it demonstrates a graduating mastery of the abilities. Not only do you gain more uses per day per devotional, but it also becomes easier to use.

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I am afraid I stated my opinion rather confusingly. I was just saying that you didn't need to link the progression of being better able to use magic (Spell-SLA-Su) to how often they could use that spell or create that effect.

As for the devotionals chosen, just be careful about which spells you choose to replicate, although I do think you will be.

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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

That is correct. There might be a sub-deity with access to Turn Undead and the Glory domain, but really, any Cleric with zero optimization simply laughs at any undead challenge. And turn attempts, other than being used to trivialize encounters, were being used to fuel things which broke the top off of the power curve.

Since my goal is to de-trivialize encounters, and to keep the power level around T3, turn undead really didn't make sense here.

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The sun domain would be a good be a fit. Like some classes that borrow from others, the Priest version of turn undead might come with an asterisk such that "Uses of turn undead gained from the Priest class may not be used to power divine feats". Another thought is you could grant it at the lesser stage and from that point on advance it as a Paladin would, weakening it slightly from a full powered cleric. Perhaps both of these.

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Originally Posted by TwylyghT

The sun domain would be a good be a fit. Like some classes that borrow from others, the Priest version of turn undead might come with an asterisk such that "Uses of turn undead gained from the Priest class may not be used to power divine feats". Another thought is you could grant it at the lesser stage and from that point on advance it as a Paladin would, weakening it slightly from a full powered cleric. Perhaps both of these.

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Sun domain is getting a new ability, due to Turn Undead not being accessible by Priests. It'll probably be something similar to 'any light spell cast becomes true daylight for the purposes of affecting certain undead'. This gives them a powerful weapon to use against undead, particularly vampires and incorporeal undead, without being able to be used for Divine Metacheese.

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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

It's really the same problem I have with Save States or Reset Buttons like Rope Trick or MMM... if the party knows they can nova and recover completely between combat, they have no reason to NOT nova.

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Well, unless that recovery will take time that they don't have (after all, while everybody hates timed missions, missions in which the enemy gradually grows in power are both realistic and far less pressing, while still making time into a real resource.)

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Originally Posted by Yitzi

Well, unless that recovery will take time that they don't have (after all, while everybody hates timed missions, missions in which the enemy gradually grows in power are both realistic and far less pressing, while still making time into a real resource.)

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Unless you plan on using Railroad Plot, or are currently in the middle of an active chase scene, this is not realistic for the majority of the campaign.

I have created a number of Devotional feats which the Priest may pick up as bonus feats, and posted them here in my world design thread.

In brief: Meta-devotional feats are applied to a specific Devotional, and then on affect the devotional as the Priest sees fit. Therefore, if you chose Reach Devotional for your Cure Light Wounds devotional from your Healing domain, then you may use it at a range from Touch to 30' as you so chose. Since the devotionals themselves are limited in number of uses, I think this is fairly well balanced.