Potential Horde Elite template
I have been throwing around the idea of a horde template for monsters so that you can use large amounts of creatures (ie 20+) without a truly staggering amount of movement for monsters and this is what I have come up with. This is a work in progress so feedback would be nice.
Standard Elite increases
HP: x2
Saving Throws: +2
Action Points: 1
Defenses: Fort +2, Ref -2 (hordes are more study as a mob, but movement is restricted)
Resist: 1/2 Damage from Melee and Ranged Attacks
Vulnerable: Tier x5 Close and Area Attacks
Size increase determined by Base creature
Tiny -> Large
Small or Medium -> Huge
Large -> Gargantuan
Change Base Creatures Attacks as follows
Melee X -> Close Burst X
Ranged X -> Area 1 Burst within X
Area X Burst within Y -> Area X+1 Burst within Y
Close Blast X -> Close Blast X+2
Re: Potential Horde Elite template
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Originally Posted by
Arcacius
I have been throwing around the idea of a horde template for monsters so that you can use large amounts of creatures (ie 20+) without a truly staggering amount of movement for monsters and this is what I have come up with. This is a work in progress so feedback would be nice.
There were already enough "Horde" and/or "Swarm" monsters put out that I'm reasonably sure that there was something approaching a template for this already, on an internal level. The important thing to remember is that it doesn't really work with every single possible creature (which is a reason why 4e definitely moved away from the template model for creatures that 3.X used so heavily; adding X feature to a creature that can synergize with it means something completely different than adding that same feature to a creature that is at odds with it). I think it would be better to just make a new creature entry for each horde you're looking to use, with specific functionality that defines how hordes react (which you already seem to have going).
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Standard Elite increases
I generally disagree with the idea that a horde should be an elite creature, especially if you're just considering it an elite version of the base monster. A horde isn't 2 of X creature; it's 20+ of them. Giving out twice the xp seems wrong. Conversely, even if you're operating under the assumption that the horde-ed creatures are so low level they're only a threat of any kind when operating in overwhelming numbers (e.g. they're all level 1 minions, but, working as a single entity, they present the threat of a single level 9 creature), I don't really see why they should be giving out xp as an elite.
As I said before, I think it's better to create the hordes you need for your story (e.g. if the horde is supposed to be the big bad of the encounter, make it an elite; if it's just supposed to be support/backdrop for the actual big bad, make it a standard).
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Defenses: Fort +2, Ref -2 (hordes are more study as a mob, but movement is restricted)
I disagree with this because you have to remember that hordes are still comprised of individuals that are presenting a threat as a whole. Changing their defenses in this regard doesn't really work with this imo, especially since the point of hordes is that, when they die, it's not so much killing all of them as it is breaking the combined will for them to work together (e.g. when you "defeat" them, you haven't killed them all; you've broken their formation, causing them to run or fall apart).
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Resist: 1/2 Damage from Melee and Ranged Attacks
Vulnerable: Tier x5 Close and Area Attacks
These are pretty standard for horde entries as written, though the standard seems closer to a standard Vuln 10 for all tiers. I've always disliked the "chunkiness" of having things increase by large amounts on a tier basis and prefer to just make it something closer to 5 + 1/2 level.
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Size increase determined by Base creature
Tiny -> Large
Small or Medium -> Huge
Large -> Gargantuan
Pretty standard sizes. A horde is basically a bunch of enemies squeezing together, so these are roughly the sizes you get with 20 creatures squeezing together.
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Change Base Creatures Attacks as follows
Melee X -> Close Burst X
Ranged X -> Area 1 Burst within X
Area X Burst within Y -> Area X+1 Burst within Y
Close Blast X -> Close Blast X+2
This is kind of weird. The way the swarms that are written tend to work is that they get a swarm aura that gives them either free basic attacks or free damage to enemies that either start or end their turn in the aura. I find it works significantly better since you're not just upgrading everything they do to AoEs, which players could pretty quickly render moot by staying away from them. I could see converting ranged attacks into AoEs, but that's as far as I could see going with it. Anything that gives more tactical options than a minion would get isn't really appropriate for a swarm, imo, because the individual entities in a swarm are supposed to be sub-minion level of threat, which is why 20+ of them equals only 1 or 2 enemies of a given kind. Even if a swarm *did* have an AoE, I would see it better explained as one or two of the constituent creatures using something more threatening than normal rather than everyone acting in concert (e.g. one rioter throws a molotoc cocktail for the horde's turn, rather than *every* rioter throwing a molotov cocktail all at once).
They also give the swarm trait, which you seem to have forgotten and is pretty important to their tactics. ("The swarm can occupy the same space as another creature, and an enemy can enter its space, which is difficult terrain. The swarm cannot be pulled, pushed, or slid by melee or ranged attacks. It can squeeze through any opening that is large enough for at least one of the creatures it comprises.")
Re: Potential Horde Elite template
Huh. Interesting concept.
A potential problem is when PC powers are only supposed to affect a specific number of targets. A warlock can lift one creature off the ground with storm countess's kiss, but if that one "creature" is a horde, it leaves you wondering why the same warlock can't do that to other creatures in large numbers right next to each other. Without trying to attain realism -- because, frankly, realism should take a back seat to good play in 4e -- it still might be best to change the way the horde interacts with that kind of power.
The creatures in hordes are individually kinda wimpy, so they shouldn't have better saves than a standalone.
Here's a suggestion that helps with both those issues but requires extra rolling. The horde takes a -2 or +0 to saves instead of the usual +2. They roll a save against each damage instance or effect as it happens, unless it could affect each of the component creatures individually (like many bursts/blasts, the hunter ranger's rapid shot, or maybe a multitarget melee power with a reach weapon). Saving this way against damage halves it, and saving against an effect negates it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arcacius
Change Base Creatures Attacks as follows
Melee X -> Close Burst X
Ranged X -> Area 1 Burst within X
Area X Burst within Y -> Area X+1 Burst within Y
Close Blast X -> Close Blast X+2
If you choose to let the horde overlap space with other creatures, you'd also want to specify that their new close burst powers include their own space.
Oh, hmm, what about OAs? Maybe the horde should retain MBAs as well as getting a non-basic-attack close burst, so they still get a swipe at anyone walking by but don't get to swipe at everyone for one person walking by.
Re: Potential Horde Elite template
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There were already enough "Horde" and/or "Swarm" monsters put out that I'm reasonably sure that there was something approaching a template for this already, on an internal level. The important thing to remember is that it doesn't really work with every single possible creature (which is a reason why 4e definitely moved away from the template model for creatures that 3.X used so heavily; adding X feature to a creature that can synergize with it means something completely different than adding that same feature to a creature that is at odds with it). I think it would be better to just make a new creature entry for each horde you're looking to use, with specific functionality that defines how hordes react (which you already seem to have going).
While there was an internal template, I was hoping to more codify it. And while there are many swarms, there isnt anything (that I could find) for lets say a goblin horde. Also this is quick and dirty, with the goal to be something you can just throw in if you need it.
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I generally disagree with the idea that a horde should be an elite creature, especially if you're just considering it an elite version of the base monster. A horde isn't 2 of X creature; it's 20+ of them. Giving out twice the xp seems wrong. Conversely, even if you're operating under the assumption that the horde-ed creatures are so low level they're only a threat of any kind when operating in overwhelming numbers (e.g. they're all level 1 minions, but, working as a single entity, they present the threat of a single level 9 creature), I don't really see why they should be giving out xp as an elite.
This was made for two reasons though I see your point.
The first was I was viewing this template as less of the equivalent of 2 standard monsters and more 8+ minions with using standard monsters as a short cut. Instead of having an orc warlord (Elite) and a dozen members of his horde (minions) and having your encounter budget eaten, you can have the warlord, the mob, and a couple of supports in the encounter.
Second is that later in the design process they felt that if you make an elite, it should do the damage of 2 standard monsters. I felt that a horde that can hit more than one character (comparatively) should be an elite.
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I disagree with this because you have to remember that hordes are still comprised of individuals that are presenting a threat as a whole. Changing their defenses in this regard doesn't really work with this imo, especially since the point of hordes is that, when they die, it's not so much killing all of them as it is breaking the combined will for them to work together (e.g. when you "defeat" them, you haven't killed them all; you've broken their formation, causing them to run or fall apart).
I thought so, but wasnt sure one way or another.
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They also give the swarm trait, which you seem to have forgotten and is pretty important to their tactics. ("The swarm can occupy the same space as another creature, and an enemy can enter its space, which is difficult terrain. The swarm cannot be pulled, pushed, or slid by melee or ranged attacks. It can squeeze through any opening that is large enough for at least one of the creatures it comprises.")
Oh ****, I totally did forget that.
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This is kind of weird. The way the swarms that are written tend to work is that they get a swarm aura that gives them either free basic attacks or free damage to enemies that either start or end their turn in the aura. I find it works significantly better since you're not just upgrading everything they do to AoEs, which players could pretty quickly render moot by staying away from them. I could see converting ranged attacks into AoEs, but that's as far as I could see going with it. Anything that gives more tactical options than a minion would get isn't really appropriate for a swarm, imo, because the individual entities in a swarm are supposed to be sub-minion level of threat, which is why 20+ of them equals only 1 or 2 enemies of a given kind. Even if a swarm *did* have an AoE, I would see it better explained as one or two of the constituent creatures using something more threatening than normal rather than everyone acting in concert (e.g. one rioter throws a molotoc cocktail for the horde's turn, rather than *every* rioter throwing a molotov cocktail all at once).
Thinking about it the automatic melee hit would probably work better. But it does put a bigger emphasis on melee Base Creatures.
The idea behind increasing the AoEs was to make this template work on more than just brutes and soldiers, making skirmishers and artillery possible options as well, without multiple templates. And I dont know how to reconcile that. Thoughts?
Re: Potential Horde Elite template
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A potential problem is when PC powers are only supposed to affect a specific number of targets. A warlock can lift one creature off the ground with storm countess's kiss, but if that one "creature" is a horde, it leaves you wondering why the same warlock can't do that to other creatures in large numbers right next to each other. Without trying to attain realism -- because, frankly, realism should take a back seat to good play in 4e -- it still might be best to change the way the horde interacts with that kind of power.
The creatures in hordes are individually kinda wimpy, so they shouldn't have better saves than a standalone.
Here's a suggestion that helps with both those issues but requires extra rolling. The horde takes a -2 or +0 to saves instead of the usual +2. They roll a save against each damage instance or effect as it happens, unless it could affect each of the component creatures individually (like many bursts/blasts, the hunter ranger's rapid shot, or maybe a multitarget melee power with a reach weapon). Saving this way against damage halves it, and saving against an effect negates it.
Thankfully ThePurple reminded me of the swarm type rules which solves alot of that, but I like the idea of having a lower save but being able to potentially save when effected. Like if one goblin in a swarm is on fire the group can put it out, but they panic if it begins to spread.
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If you choose to let the horde overlap space with other creatures, you'd also want to specify that their new close burst powers include their own space.
Oh, hmm, what about OAs? Maybe the horde should retain MBAs as well as getting a non-basic-attack close burst, so they still get a swipe at anyone walking by but don't get to swipe at everyone for one person walking by.
I see your point. Maybe a trait like Horde Tactics: On this creatures turn turn they may make melee attacks as a close burst equal to the reach of the attack. Close bursts also effect enemies within their spaces.
Re: Potential Horde Elite template
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arcacius
The first was I was viewing this template as less of the equivalent of 2 standard monsters and more 8+ minions with using standard monsters as a short cut. Instead of having an orc warlord (Elite) and a dozen members of his horde (minions) and having your encounter budget eaten, you can have the warlord, the mob, and a couple of supports in the encounter.
Second is that later in the design process they felt that if you make an elite, it should do the damage of 2 standard monsters. I felt that a horde that can hit more than one character (comparatively) should be an elite.
My point is that the constituent creatures for a horde aren't even supposed to be *approaching* the effectiveness of a minion. Minions are the "one hit KO" enemies that the mastermind brings along. Hordes/swarms are supposed to be the "holy crap there's so many of these there's no point counting them" enemies. They are literally *only* dangerous because there's so many of them. When a swarm/horde attacks a PC, it isn't a *single* entity attacking that PC, it's dozens of them *and they still only have a chance of hitting and will only deal damage on par with a single enemy of the PC's level*. A template to turn even a minion into a swarm/horde (e.g. effectively bumping a minion up to a standard or an elite by virtue of overwhelming numbers) should necessitate an increase in their level, if you're going to do it that way.
An example of this is the Bloodspear Savage Throng. The horde is comprised of orcs. I'm going to assume that, because the names are similar and they're both orc brutes using axes, that the Bloodspear Savage Throng is made up of Orc Savages. The Orc Savage is a level 4 minion. The Bloodspear Savage Throng is a level 9 Brute. This makes sense because you're using sheer numbers to upgrade a minion back to a standard.
As such, if you're going to be doing this as a template, I would at least recommend you include some reference to the level needing to be increased because, if the horde is just a bunch of minions, why aren't they fighting individually as minions rather than as a single horde entity? In short, if you want a horde via a template, the standard monster that you're applying the template to should be so far beneath the player's level that they're beneath contempt; otherwise, there's no reason to horde/swarm up since those 20+ entities will be more dangerous as individuals than as a group.
(as a side note, this is basically the reverse of the design process and discussion that has been made about solo>elite>standard>minion progression as you increase in levels; when you first meet the badass orc warlord in early heroic, he's a solo; when you meet him later on in late heroic, because the heroes have gotten stronger but he has not, he is now a higher level elite; when you meet him in mid-high paragon, while he's still an utter badass for a standard orc, he's now appropriate as a standard rather than an elite; if he appears yet again in the epic tier, it's going to be as part of a deity's retinue of minions who are, admittedly, awesome by mere mortal standards, but next to nothing by the standards of people that can *fight gods*)
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The idea behind increasing the AoEs was to make this template work on more than just brutes and soldiers, making skirmishers and artillery possible options as well, without multiple templates. And I dont know how to reconcile that. Thoughts?
I mean, they're a horde/swarm. I don't think it's really appropriate for artillery type monsters to be relevant. They not supposed to be tactically dangerous. They're supposed to be dangerous by virtue of the fact that *there are just that many of them* which is why pretty much every single swarm is melee driven.
I could *envisage* something like this applying to an artillery monster, like a peasant levy that's all armed with bows unleashing torrents of arrows upon their foes without any real capacity to focus fire, but that seems like a case of "a single template won't work for all cases" because swarm features for mass fire are going to be very different than swarm features for an unruly mob. If you really want to have a functional template, your best bet might be to create 2 separate templates: one template for melee hordes/swarms and another for ranged hordes/swarms.
Both of them should increase the level of the base creature by 5 or more, converting it from a minion to a standard. They should provide the swarm trait, resistances (half damage from melee/ranged attacks), and vulnerabilities (vuln 5+1/2 level to close/area attacks). Actual numbers should be based on MM3-on-a-business-card (assuming the base creature is already using the correct math, the defenses and attack rolls should just require a +5, or however much the level difference is; converting the damage values for a standard could be as easy as increasing it by the level difference, but converting minion flat damage to non-minion variable damage is basically the same as creating the damage numbers from scratch anyways).
Melee swarms would get the damage aura (either flat damage or a basic attack against an enemy that ends its turn within the aura) to represent the dozens of arms swinging weapons independently. Ranged swarms would get ranged attacks converted into area bursts to represent the massed fire.
All-in-all, I think it's better just to recognize the traits swarms are supposed to have and then custom create the swarms you want for your campaign. MM3-on-a-business-card math is *awesome* like that, especially since swarm traits really leave most of the other stuff alone since they provide a pretty decent internal balance on their own (they resist single target attacks but they're very vulnerable to AoEs, they can envelope single targets, but they provoke OAs for doing so, etc.). I would definitely make it a hard and fast rule that any enemy that already has a monster entry (such as the level 1 minion goblin cutter) should be significantly higher level (at least 6) if it appears as a horde.
Re: Potential Horde Elite template
Try +10 levels and elite.
That makes them worth about x12 XP.
Or +15 levels.
This also reflects fluff; if a goblin is a threat at heroic, a horde of goblins is a threat at paragon.
For minions, +2 elite to 7 levels.
Re: Potential Horde Elite template
I've been playing with this concept for a couple of years (I've actually been thinking of running a campaign around it), and basically agree with ThePurple and Yakk. I will add that you can give your horde (or any military unit/swarm) powers similar to a mount and allow a PC to "ride" the horde as unit commander, using their actions to direct the horde.
I could conceive of a scenario where the PCs are called on to command units where the units are sufficiently high level that it is worthwhile to use a standard action to direct a unit to attack, but not so high level that a PC couldn't choose to instead go it alone and take on the enemy units by himself. The "mount" power needs to be something that creates some advantage to unit and PC if a PC directly takes command of the unit.
A couple of things I routinely do:
- give the unit a damaging aura 1 (or aura 2 if they are using reach weapons)
- allow a ranged or area attack by one swarm against another to ignore the "swarm" damage resistance
- give soldier units a "shield wall" power that reduces speed, increases AC, and prevents enemies from entering the unit's space
- give units using reach spears an interrupt attack against charges - or a damage bonus if they ready an action to set spears against a charge
I've also been considering providing certain fear based powers to mimic morale checks from earlier editions. Like if your unit bloodies another unit, or hits it when it is bloodied or has lost its commander, it can be routed.
