Mass Effect 3.5 Does this thread have a soul?

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Originally Posted by SiuiS

you had a gameplan going in! I call a mulligan! :smalltongue:
More seriously, my teammates were terribly unoptimized because I was used to them dropping inME2 and having to pull the game myself. Instead, they were entirely ignored and I frequently dodged grenades by rolling onto other grenades. I had to restart the entire mission because I had EDI and she Disney have good weapons OR powers. Garrus and Javik come in, and then if was just a case of sleep deprivation and and my bad controller.

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I actually rely very heavily on my squadmates in ME2 and 3, so typically I never do things by myself. Garrus was mostly there for Armor Piercing Ammo and Overload every now and then. Javik and me carried most of it. Thessia will worry me however as Liara is stupidly frail and generally outmatched by Javik on Insanity.

Also when I get Ashley back, which passive should I get for Rank 4 of Alliance Officer? (Weapon Damage or Health/Shields, 30% boost) So far my squadmates (Liara excepted...) has been fine with survival so long as I tell them to stay in position, however when Banshees appear it's going to complicate things so I'd like to know whether Ashley should max out on her Health/Shield capacity or Weapon Damage capacity.

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Originally Posted by Starsign

I actually rely very heavily on my squadmates in ME2 and 3, so typically I never do things by myself. Garrus was mostly there for Armor Piercing Ammo and Overload every now and then. Javik and me carried most of it. Thessia will worry me however as Liara is stupidly frail and generally outmatched by Javik on Insanity.

Also when I get Ashley back, which passive should I get for Rank 4 of Alliance Officer? (Weapon Damage or Health/Shields, 30% boost) So far my squadmates (Liara excepted...) has been fine with survival so long as I tell them to stay in position, however when Banshees appear it's going to complicate things so I'd like to know whether Ashley should max out on her Health/Shield capacity or Weapon Damage capacity.

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Liara stayed with me my entire Insanity run. Her shorter cool downs make her a much more efficient combo starter than Javik. Plus stasis makes certain fights stupid easy.

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Originally Posted by Xondoure

Liara stayed with me my entire Insanity run. Her shorter cool downs make her a much more efficient combo starter than Javik. Plus stasis makes certain fights stupid easy.

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I must agree with this. Liara may be fragile but her cooldowns, especially for Singularity, are stupidly fast. Fast enough to keep up with Shepard's sometimes, which is incredibly useful for combos.

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Originally Posted by Xondoure

Liara stayed with me my entire Insanity run. Her shorter cool downs make her a much more efficient combo starter than Javik. Plus stasis makes certain fights stupid easy.

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Originally Posted by Tome

I must agree with this. Liara may be fragile but her cooldowns, especially for Singularity, are stupidly fast. Fast enough to keep up with Shepard's sometimes, which is incredibly useful for combos.

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For me, Liara is redundant. Shepard already has Warp and Throw for his own combo detonations and I need another character with a Particle Rifle than Liara. Besides, Javik's Slam has the Detonate effect which allows for more powerful detonations where Singularity is VERY combo unfriendly, especially at the 6th rank. Stasis is better for that but I prefer Slam or Warp for setting up detonations. I almost want to call her garbage (her HP unarguably is) but that just wouldn't be true. However she is more of a liability than helpful to me so I don't use her. I'm betting this will be beyond true in the final mission (specifically the hold the line part) where finding Cannibals and Husks are difficult among the Banshees, Brutes, and Marauders.

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Originally Posted by Morty

Yeah, my point was that Allers is such a pointless and stupid character I wouldn't risk offending a volcano god by throwing her in. :smalltongue:

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"We may be eldrich abominations or simply a superstition but even us volcano gods have standards."

Tiki Tiki

Just want some input on the weapons here, if nobody minds. This mostly pertains to the turian and human soldiers in multiplayer.

First, Raptor, Viper or Incisor? How do they work for a Turian focusing on the marksman power? And what weapon would be the best back up for each?

Second, I'm having trouble using the Falcon assault rifle, and I'm worried that this is because I'm not using it right. When I use it, I tend to aim straight at the enemy I want to shoot. Should I be bouncing it towards them instead?

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Originally Posted by Beowulf DW

First, Raptor, Viper or Incisor? How do they work for a Turian focusing on the marksman power? And what weapon would be the best back up for each?

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Raptor and Incisor have relatively low damage per bullet, in my experience. Personally, use Viper until you get a Mantis, then switch to that. This goes especially for if you are good at getting headshots. As for backup weapons, you're a soldier so you're not going to care much about powers, so just ignore the "weight" category and go for high ratio of damage to capacity. More experienced people can give you a better recommendation than I, though.

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Originally Posted by SiuiS

In reference to your hyperbole about krogans being sentinels because of their tech armor power, and saying "all of those things" when I asked what makes a class;

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You seem still to not understand what I meant by that, given your argument that follows is precisely the sort of thing that I was arguing against when I said those things.

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Originally Posted by SiuiS

A level 1 character of any race or class is a soldier. They gave guns and that's about it. Doesn't matterif the game says engineer if they can't play like an engineer. Doesn't matter if the game says adept if they can't play like an adept. they play like soldiers. Walk like, look like, quack like.

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Of course they can play like their class. They get two points, one auto-assigned to one of their more class-defining powers if it's a new character, no such restriction if it's a promoted one. That'll get a Adept two powers for doing basic biotic combos, or an Engineer Incinerate and Overload/Energy Drain, or a Vanguard Charge and either Nova or a basic boost to some stats (non-promoted Sentinels are a tad screwed due to Tech Armor being their default, but promoted ones can grab two powers if they wish). You'll have to play more carefully obviously, particularly with a non-Krogan Vanguard, but you're certainly capable of playing like what you are. I for one would do it no other way.

Zevox

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Originally Posted by Beowulf DW

Just want some input on the weapons here, if nobody minds. This mostly pertains to the turian and human soldiers in multiplayer.

First, Raptor, Viper or Incisor? How do they work for a Turian focusing on the marksman power? And what weapon would be the best back up for each?

Second, I'm having trouble using the Falcon assault rifle, and I'm worried that this is because I'm not using it right. When I use it, I tend to aim straight at the enemy I want to shoot. Should I be bouncing it towards them instead?

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I want to say Valiant, or Mattock (it's better than Viper/Incisor by the numbers, and can be hipfired without damage loss), but anyways. I'd say Viper, in general. Better Marksman fire rate synergy, better armor pen, less hand pain. Raptor and Incisor do too little damage, and Raptor requires you to click at 10 clicks/s to max out fire rate. I can't do more than 6. Viper can use a Hornet/Hurricane as backup, though it doesn't need one. Frankly, as a Turian Soldier, I'd prefer to just use Hurricane primary. Phalanx or Carnifex work all right.
Also, Saber. Does a lot more per shot than Viper, bigger clip, fires faster. You probably don't have one, though.

Falcon fires duds when you aren't host. Don't use if you aren't host. You should see little grenade tracers when firing, they'll give you a feel of where the shot is going. I tend to aim at the ground a bit, but aiming at targets usually works. It's a very fast projectile.


You seriously don't rely mostly on weapons for damage at level 1? Your choice, but you're being ineffective. Biotic combos are AWFUL on bronze, especially at level 1. Your teammates will be busy killing targets as fast as you can warp them. Better to just use a decent weapon, and use powers for stagger to headshot.

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Originally Posted by Zevox

You seem still to not understand what I meant by that, given your argument that follows is precisely the sort of thing that I was arguing against when I said those things.


Of course they can play like their class. They get two points, one auto-assigned to one of their more class-defining powers if it's a new character, no such restriction if it's a promoted one. That'll get a Adept two powers for doing basic biotic combos, or an Engineer Incinerate and Overload/Energy Drain, or a Vanguard Charge and either Nova or a basic boost to some stats (non-promoted Sentinels are a tad screwed due to Tech Armor being their default, but promoted ones can grab two powers if they wish). You'll have to play more carefully obviously, particularly with a non-Krogan Vanguard, but you're certainly capable of playing like what you are. I for one would do it no other way.

Zevox

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But the point is that they are competitive on silver if they stick to their guns. No one says they can't use those abilities, or that they won't, just that they don't need them to be fully ranked to do well on silver.

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Originally Posted by Zevox

You seem still to not understand what I meant by that, given your argument that follows is precisely the sort of thing that I was arguing against when I said those things.

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On the contrary, I only brought that up so you would have a shorthand for what I meant.

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Of course they can play like their class. They get two points, one auto-assigned to one of their more class-defining powers if it's a new character, no such restriction if it's a promoted one. That'll get a Adept two powers for doing basic biotic combos, or an Engineer Incinerate and Overload/Energy Drain, or a Vanguard Charge and either Nova or a basic boost to some stats (non-promoted Sentinels are a tad screwed due to Tech Armor being their default, but promoted ones can grab two powers if they wish). You'll have to play more carefully obviously, particularly with a non-Krogan Vanguard, but you're certainly capable of playing like what you are. I for one would do it no other way.

Zevox

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You're missing the point by not reading my post in light of the whole conversation we are having.

If a level 1 engineer (drone, 1 other ability) is not competitive on silver and will die;
A level 1 soldier is competitive on silver;
The difference between an engineer and a soldier, for all purposes, I'd whether they A) have a load out that recharges their admittedly useless powers faster, or B) does damage;

Then any class is competitive on silver if you drop your preconceptions. Nothing you've said has addressed this.

Knowing that weapons can make the difference as we do, you have to be intentionally obfuscating to say soldier can play on silver because they have no powers, but casting classes (who don't have any real powers to speak of) should stick to bronze and to weaker, lighter weapons arbitrarily.

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Originally Posted by Starsign

For me, Liara is redundant. Shepard already has Warp and Throw for his own combo detonations and I need another character with a Particle Rifle than Liara. Besides, Javik's Slam has the Detonate effect which allows for more powerful detonations where Singularity is VERY combo unfriendly, especially at the 6th rank. Stasis is better for that but I prefer Slam or Warp for setting up detonations. I almost want to call her garbage (her HP unarguably is) but that just wouldn't be true. However she is more of a liability than helpful to me so I don't use her. I'm betting this will be beyond true in the final mission (specifically the hold the line part) where finding Cannibals and Husks are difficult among the Banshees, Brutes, and Marauders.

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In defense of Liara, her powers are about winning fights right away and then mopping up. With her singularity cooldown, she can throw down both a singularity and a stasis very quickly. That disables most of the regular troops and some with shields. You go warp->throw on the stasis enemies to do a double biotic detonation and then mop up everything that was caught in the singularity. Basically, she throws down her powers quickly and the fight goes from being a potential challenge to nothing but a formality. Plus she makes phantoms into a joke and can set up headshots if your Shephard prefers using a powerful gun.

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Originally Posted by Anarion

In defense of Liara, her powers are about winning fights right away and then mopping up. With her singularity cooldown, she can throw down both a singularity and a stasis very quickly. That disables most of the regular troops and some with shields. You go warp->throw on the stasis enemies to do a double biotic detonation and then mop up everything that was caught in the singularity. Basically, she throws down her powers quickly and the fight goes from being a potential challenge to nothing but a formality. Plus she makes phantoms into a joke and can set up headshots if your Shephard prefers using a powerful gun.

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Having Liara with Warp at maxed cooldown makes fights even bigger jokes. Her warp has no travel time. So if you're an Adept or Sentinel with Throw its game over.

On my Insanity game my second teammate (Garrus) did practically nothing. The way to do things was:
Liara -> Warp Target in middle of group
Me (adept) -> Throw that target (and hit someone else with secondary missile)
Me -> Warp another target
Me -> Throw
By then Liara's warp is back up and you can repeat. This kills Banshees in maybe 2-3 cycles on insanity, depending on if Garrus would potshot them with his Widow or not. This whole cycle gets 2 biotic explosions in the time of 1 of Liara's warp cooldowns (since the cooldown after throw is quite short).

I barely bothered using his singularity or stasis. Warp all the way!

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Originally Posted by Arbitrarity

You seriously don't rely mostly on weapons for damage at level 1?

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Caster/Vanguard player, remember? I don't rely mostly on weapons for damage ever. I don't "rely" on weapons at all, I use them as a backup to my powers or (for Krogan) melee.

Of course, the level 1 thing is somewhat theoretical, since I haven't played an actual level 1 character in a long time. I've only promoted a class once, when I decided to play my new Krogan Vanguard from level 1, and, well, Krogan Vanguard. That is certainly what I would do if I were ever inclined to promote a class again though.

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Originally Posted by SiuiS

On the contrary, I only brought that up so you would have a shorthand for what I meant.

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Then you've lost me again, because I do not know what you mean by that.

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Originally Posted by SiuiS

You're missing the point by not reading my post in light of the whole conversation we are having.

If a level 1 engineer (drone, 1 other ability) is not competitive on silver and will die;
A level 1 soldier is competitive on silver;
The difference between an engineer and a soldier, for all purposes, I'd whether they A) have a load out that recharges their admittedly useless powers faster, or B) does damage;

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Again, the underlined is something I was arguing against before, but since that's getting off-track lets set that to the side for now and cut to the chase.

Yes, it is theoretically possible for a level 1 not-Soldier to load up on heavy weapons and ignore their powers. But as I said before, no, I am not going to assume that they're going to do that. My assumption is that if they wanted to do that, they'd be playing a class better suited to it - i.e. Soldier.

Also, don't take what I said about possibly accepting a Soldier to mean that I think they're "competitive on silver" at level 1. I'd certainly be dropping out of the group if I saw more than one person trying to play a level 1 Soldier in a silver game. I'd just be less inclined to start or second a suggestion to kick a player at level 1 from a silver game if they were a Soldier rather than another class - if it got the point where the other two players had already voted to kick him though, I'd probably still go ahead and do so.

Zevox

Well I happen to see things very differently. Liara doesn't really have anything that can't be filled in by Shepard or Javik. She does excellent for biotic detonations but Shepard and Javik can do it just fine with much better survivability and weaponpower. Garrus is invaluable with Armor Piercing Ammo and Overload for the first act. (he's replaced by Ashley afterward) James is wonderful for whenever I don't use Garrus, Javik I always use; Tali and EDI I only use when required to, same for Liara. Kaiden I don't have alive, but if I did, he'd probably be used over Javik. (unfortunately it's impossible to have Ashley and Kaiden together)

Basically all I need are a biotic that can survive hits plus be able to use the Particle Rifle, and a very powerful gun user. Javik and Kaiden fit the first, Ashley and Garrus fit the latter. Liara, Tali, and EDI can't fit either, so I only use them for the missions they need to come for. (though Tali and EDI are invaluable for the missions they need to be on. Liara, I could have done without on Thessia; especially at the end where she's completely useless against Kai Leng. Not that he puts up a fight there :smalltongue:)

...Though I end up using Javik and Ashley in part because I really like them. If I was going for the absolute best results ("best" being a very loose term here) I'd use Kaiden and Garrus instead. I haven't been fond of Bioware's favoritism to Liara, which is one of the reasons why I never use her. Myself almost always having a different outlook than anyone else on numerous topics doesn't help. :smallredface:

EDIT: Okay retracting a couple things from what I said here, Liara, EDI and Tali would probably be more viable if I didn't have the Particle Rifle. That weapon is absurd in damage :smalltongue: My party would probably end up being Ashley and Liara that way. BTW does Ashley's Marksman work for the Particle Rifle or is she better without Marksman?

Well I played Vanguard, so my squad mates actually got knocked out maybe five times in my run through of the game.

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Originally Posted by Xondoure

Well I played Vanguard, so my squad mates actually got knocked out maybe five times in my run through of the game.

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Well I haven't really gotten anyone killed much yet either. Only ones are Liara, James (due to Eden Prime which I needed a distraction while taking out the Atlas without good weaponry) and Javik. (due to being in the turret room at a bad spot) My Shepard is usually the one taking the hits since he has two armor powers and runs ahead when viable. (like on Sur'Kesh when you need to protect the pod) Atlas Mechs are still a pain however when up-close. Biotic Detonations on nearby enemies should help with damage, particularly Slam -> Warp with Javik and Shepard.

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Originally Posted by Arbitrarity

I want to say Valiant, or Mattock (it's better than Viper/Incisor by the numbers, and can be hipfired without damage loss), but anyways. I'd say Viper, in general. Better Marksman fire rate synergy, better armor pen, less hand pain. Raptor and Incisor do too little damage, and Raptor requires you to click at 10 clicks/s to max out fire rate. I can't do more than 6. Viper can use a Hornet/Hurricane as backup, though it doesn't need one. Frankly, as a Turian Soldier, I'd prefer to just use Hurricane primary. Phalanx or Carnifex work all right.
Also, Saber. Does a lot more per shot than Viper, bigger clip, fires faster. You probably don't have one, though.

Falcon fires duds when you aren't host. Don't use if you aren't host. You should see little grenade tracers when firing, they'll give you a feel of where the shot is going. I tend to aim at the ground a bit, but aiming at targets usually works. It's a very fast projectile.

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I just got a Mattock, so I'll give it a try. I've noticed that the Falcon isn't so good when the game lags a bit, but it's a grenade launcher and it's fun.

I haven't seen a Hurricane or a Valiant yet, but maybe I'll get lucky.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Starsign

Well I haven't really gotten anyone killed much yet either. Only ones are Liara, James (due to Eden Prime which I needed a distraction while taking out the Atlas without good weaponry) and Javik. (due to being in the turret room at a bad spot) My Shepard is usually the one taking the hits since he has two armor powers and runs ahead when viable. (like on Sur'Kesh when you need to protect the pod) Atlas Mechs are still a pain however when up-close. Biotic Detonations on nearby enemies should help with damage, particularly Slam -> Warp with Javik and Shepard.

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Then I must admit I'm confused why you're worried about durability. Only point I was trying to make was I hadn't noticed much of a difference. If an ally got into a bad spot they went down, regardless of how good their defenses were. But normally enemies seem pretty focused on Shepard.

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Originally Posted by Zevox

Again, the underlined is something I was arguing against before, but since that's getting off-track lets set that to the side for now and cut to the chase.

Yes, it is theoretically possible for a level 1 not-Soldier to load up on heavy weapons and ignore their powers. But as I said before, no, I am not going to assume that they're going to do that. My assumption is that if they wanted to do that, they'd be playing a class better suited to it - i.e. Soldier.

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I'm with you on this, and it goes back to the fact that I'm rather cynical on skill in multiplayer until I actually see a player in action.

Sure, some people can and will top the charts on Silver, perhaps even Gold, with a level 1. Sure, some people will play every level 1 like a Soldier. But, that's not really the point.

It might be unfair to players like Siuis to kick them if they are level 1, but I don't know if that random player at level 1 in Silver is as good as Siuis or barely functional (it could even be a good player that just sucks with weapons) and, in my experience, they tend to be more on the 'less functional' side. So, my choices are be unfair to the less common players who can handle it or be unfair to myself by keeping the more common players who can't (and thus make my job more difficult). With those choices, I'll always be unfair to the less common player who isn't me. It's unfortunate for the better players, but it's not an insult to them or their skill, it's just a side effect of most people being unable to contribute at Silver+ while level 1. There is no way to judge your skill until we are in the game, and then it is too late to kick you.

I rarely start a vote to kick (unless it's someone who just won't hit ready), but if someone else has started it, I won't hesitate to kick a <level 5 unless they have very good equipment (and sometimes even then, especially with not-Soldiers).

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Originally Posted by Xondoure

Then I must admit I'm confused why you're worried about durability. Only point I was trying to make was I hadn't noticed much of a difference. If an ally got into a bad spot they went down, regardless of how good their defenses were. But normally enemies seem pretty focused on Shepard.

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Well I like to keep my medi-gel supplies high. And I can't have that if Liara drops on the floor halfway across the battlefield. I rely heavily on squadmates so my plan goes AWOL if they get killed and are too far to be manually revived. Liara just happens to die more often than the others. (this has happened a lot in ME2 with all squadmates, I know AI has improved in ME3 but they can still be really dumb sometimes) I will admit so far I am overestimating Insanity, but again, Liara brings nothing that will improve my performance in the game and will be more of a liability. That and I don't really like her as much as other squadmates, so she isn't used.

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Originally Posted by thugthrasher

I'm with you on this, and it goes back to the fact that I'm rather cynical on skill in multiplayer until I actually see a player in action.

Sure, some people can and will top the charts on Silver, perhaps even Gold, with a level 1. Sure, some people will play every level 1 like a Soldier. But, that's not really the point.

It might be unfair to players like Siuis to kick them if they are level 1, but I don't know if that random player at level 1 in Silver is as good as Siuis or barely functional (it could even be a good player that just sucks with weapons) and, in my experience, they tend to be more on the 'less functional' side. So, my choices are be unfair to the less common players who can handle it or be unfair to myself by keeping the more common players who can't (and thus make my job more difficult). With those choices, I'll always be unfair to the less common player who isn't me. It's unfortunate for the better players, but it's not an insult to them or their skill, it's just a side effect of most people being unable to contribute at Silver+ while level 1. There is no way to judge your skill until we are in the game, and then it is too late to kick you.

I rarely start a vote to kick (unless it's someone who just won't hit ready), but if someone else has started it, I won't hesitate to kick a <level 5 unless they have very good equipment (and sometimes even then, especially with not-Soldiers).

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And all the other side is saying is that a Black Widow X can be far more destructive than 6 ranks in a power.

Alright, so I unlocked Geth Engineer. Not what I wanted - give me a Batarian Soldier, dammit! - but I guess I might as well use it. Should I advance the turret for damage, or shield restoration?

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Originally Posted by Morty

Alright, so I unlocked Geth Engineer. Not what I wanted - give me a Batarian Soldier, dammit! - but I guess I might as well use it. Should I advance the turret for damage, or shield restoration?

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See, this is why I think trading should be possible. I've been wanting a geth engineer since they were released, and I got a Batarian Soldier instead. I don't even particularly like soldier.

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Originally Posted by masterjoda99

See, this is why I think trading should be possible. I've been wanting a geth engineer since they were released, and I got a Batarian Soldier instead. I don't even particularly like soldier.

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Eeyup. I won't play Soldiers at all, have the Batarian, and the Geth Engineer is the only class I have some interest in that I haven't unlocked. I'd do that trade in a heartbeat.

Zevox

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Originally Posted by Morty

Alright, so I unlocked Geth Engineer. Not what I wanted - give me a Batarian Soldier, dammit! - but I guess I might as well use it. Should I advance the turret for damage, or shield restoration?

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Personal choice really, though the general consensus seems to be that the Shield Restoration is slightly better, as it's the only such option in the game.

Also, like half the folks in this thread I would really like to play a Geth Engineer but instead have a Batarian Soldier that sits unused. It seems that Bioware may have adapted the Desire Sensor technology from Monster Hunter. :smallyuk:

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Originally Posted by Tome

Personal choice really, though the general consensus seems to be that the Shield Restoration is slightly better, as it's the only such option in the game.

Also, like half the folks in this thread I would really like to play a Geth Engineer but instead have a Batarian Soldier that sits unused. It seems that Bioware may have adapted the Desire Sensor technology from Monster Hunter. :smallyuk:

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Actually I lack a Batarian unit. Instead I have a Drell Adept which I don't touch. I still want a Geth Engineer however... :smallsigh:

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Originally Posted by Anarion

In defense of Liara, her powers are about winning fights right away and then mopping up. With her singularity cooldown, she can throw down both a singularity and a stasis very quickly. That disables most of the regular troops and some with shields. You go warp->throw on the stasis enemies to do a double biotic detonation and then mop up everything that was caught in the singularity. Basically, she throws down her powers quickly and the fight goes from being a potential challenge to nothing but a formality. Plus she makes phantoms into a joke and can set up headshots if your Shephard prefers using a powerful gun.

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Liara is neat. She's not useful for herself really, though her powers do fly quick. She's good for the passive boost she gives. And since weapon weight doesn't matter you can give her fun weapons like the scorpion.

I'm a bad example though. As a vanguard, phantoms were already jokes. I liked to punch them to death or use nova if they cloak and somehow slink off screen.

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Originally Posted by Zevox

Of course, the level 1 thing is somewhat theoretical, since I haven't played an actual level 1 character in a long time. I've only promoted a class once, when I decided to play my new Krogan Vanguard from level 1, and, well, Krogan Vanguard. That is certainly what I would do if I were ever inclined to promote a class again though.

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Then, why are you giving definitive statements of something you've done once on a lark?

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Again, the underlined is something I was arguing against before, but since that's getting off-track lets set that to the side for now and cut to the chase.

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You are arguing against a human level 1 with a shuriken being objectively better than a human level 1 with a carnifex and a katana?
Because all things being equal except weapons, the weapons are the important variable. It's not exactly arguable, whether you play this way or no.

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Yes, it is theoretically possible for a level 1 not-Soldier to load up on heavy weapons and ignore their powers. But as I said before, no, I am not going to assume that they're going to do that. My assumption is that if they wanted to do that, they'd be playing a class better suited to it - i.e. Soldier.

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That's dumb. If they play soldier they won't level up their class. Which is the point.

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Also, don't take what I said about possibly accepting a Soldier to mean that I think they're "competitive on silver" at level 1. I'd certainly be dropping out of the group if I saw more than one person trying to play a level 1 Soldier in a silver game. I'd just be less inclined to start or second a suggestion to kick a player at level 1 from a silver game if they were a Soldier rather than another class - if it got the point where the other two players had already voted to kick him though, I'd probably still go ahead and do so.

Zevox

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This confuses me. I can use what approximates to math, what is effectively imperical proof that the difference between an engineer and a soldier at that point is all in your head, but you would still use it as a metric to deny someone a chance to play a game because you've decided they are useless. Doesn't matter what they're packing, they've got to go?

From this vantage point, your position sounds tenuous at best.

I do want to apologize though. I keep seeing in retrospect that I'm coming off a lot more antagonistic than intended. Aggravation aside, I'm trying to keep this unbiased. Well, as unbiased as a debate can be.

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Originally Posted by Zevox

Eeyup. I won't play Soldiers at all, have the Batarian, and the Geth Engineer is the only class I have some interest in that I haven't unlocked. I'd do that trade in a heartbeat.

Zevox

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Why?
Have you tried them?

We have established in thread that soldiers don't play a certain way. We have established that soldiers can be gunners, snipers, medics, and casters just as much as any other class. We've established that some soldiers don't even play out as soldiers - turian soldiers with a light gun and proximity mine function like engineers, Krogan and Batarian soldiers both roll like sentinels.

So "I don't play soldiers" doesn't work, because soldiers don't have to play 'like soldiers'. You have five chances to see if the class has powers you would enjoy. Why write them off based on expectations from a game or two ago?

Before going further SiuiS, I'd like to apologize in advance if this comes off as overly confrontational. Your last post makes it seem like you were assuming that you had established several things that I do not believe you did (or even could, to be honest), and while I've tried to edit my response appropriately, I'm not sure I got all of my irritation at that matter out of it.

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Originally Posted by SiuiS

Then, why are you giving definitive statements of something you've done once on a lark?

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In what way am I doing so? I'm not referring to what I do as a level 1, aside from that one response to Arbitrarity's surprise at the offhand remark that I myself would definitely play like my class is supposed to even at level 1, which was always theoretical and based in my personal preferences.

Essentially, what I am doing here is responding to your and Arbitrarity's argument that weapons alone should make it reasonable to accept a level 1 companion on silver. I disagree with this, both on theoretical grounds (only a Soldier is that weapon-dependant, unless the player is playing unorthodoxly for their class, which I will not assume they are) and on practical ones (I have never seen a level 1 player contribute effectively in a silver game, and I've often seen them fail to contribute much in bronze games as well).

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Originally Posted by SiuiS

You are arguing against a human level 1 with a shuriken being objectively better than a human level 1 with a carnifex and a katana?
Because all things being equal except weapons, the weapons are the important variable. It's not exactly arguable, whether you play this way or no.

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All things except weapons are never equal unless comparing precisely the same race/class combination with precisely the same build. Not even at level 1.

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Originally Posted by SiuiS

That's dumb. If they play soldier they won't level up their class. Which is the point.

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And if they're playing another class, I presume they prefer the play style that class is based around, therefore I will not assume that they'll play like a soldier.

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Originally Posted by SiuiS

This confuses me. I can use what approximates to math, what is effectively imperical proof that the difference between an engineer and a soldier at that point is all in your head, but you would still use it as a metric to deny someone a chance to play a game because you've decided they are useless. Doesn't matter what they're packing, they've got to go?

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But that is not the case at all. As I pointed out, even at level 1 each class is very capable of playing like what it is simply by picking the appropriate powers and using those. That the classes all must play the same at level 1 is merely an assumption you are making, and seem to be asking me to accept as fact even though it is not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiuiS

We have established in thread that soldiers don't play a certain way. We have established that soldiers can be gunners, snipers, medics, and casters just as much as any other class. We've established that some soldiers don't even play out as soldiers - turian soldiers with a light gun and proximity mine function like engineers, Krogan and Batarian soldiers both roll like sentinels.

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Um, no, no we did not. This is precisely the argument that I argued against earlier. Krogan and Batarian Soldiers having tech armor knock-offs do not make them Sentinels, Turian Soldiers using a light gun are nothing anywhere near an Engineer.

You asked a while ago whether play style, powers, or name made a class, and I responded "all of the above." I think you may have misinterpreted that: it did not mean "any of those things can do so," it meant "all of those things collectively do so."

Zevox

I will continue to stagger foes with basic powers and shoot them in the face. That actually seems to be the playstyle of most classes, except for Adepts and Vanguards; tech combos are really hard to set off by yourself, so you mostly end up spamming them for damage/stagger anyways.

I agree in general that I wouldn't rely on a level 1 in Silver, unless they are fairly high N7 and have strong weapons. Mostly that's a probability estimation though; note my screenshots back on page 46. Level 1 characters are perfectly CAPABLE of contributing to silver.
It's not even about "heavy weapons"; Geth Plasma Shotgun X alone only drops you to 100% cooldown, and is the only gun you need on any class to win on Silver. It's incredibly easy to use, powerful at all ranges, and effective against every enemy. Heck, I use it on my Engineers at 20, because the ease of use compared to effective Carnifex use makes their play more relaxed.

Anyways, level 1 only shows up once per promotion cycle. While it's entertaining to watch the votekicks from N7 80's on Silver, I should probably just practice shooting things in the head on Bronze.