A small tweak for arcane tricksters and eldritch knights

maybe i'm the only one, but it bothers me that, for example, eldritch knights (who should be an expert in buffing themselves) must spend one of their specialty spells to cast haste. or that an arcane trickster, which should be an expert in using magic to augment their skills, must spend one of their specialty spells to cast enhance ability.

so what if, in addition to their two schools (and the small number of off-school spells), they could also learn any spell that targets only themselves, including variant versions of any spell in the books with the change that it can only target themselves (that is, an arcane trickster could theoretically learn fireball self, but it wouldn't be a regular fireball centered on their location, it would be a spell that does fireball damage, dex save for half, that hits only the arcane trickster, so there probably isn't any reason to do so. more practically, this would mean stuff like enhance ability or enlarge/reduce on self, or fly, levitate, spider climb, etc).

I don't think it would be a problem, but that whole Fireball variation is just ugly.

And Arcane Tricksters can't learn Enhance Ability.

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Originally Posted by Specter

I don't think it would be a problem, but that whole Fireball variation is just ugly.

And Arcane Tricksters can't learn Enhance Ability.

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the fireball variation is supposed to be useless. the idea is to let them pick up self-buffs, not to let them pick up any spell they want and abuse it.

and i always forget wizard don't get enhance ability this edition for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

I wouldn't even allow stuff like Fireball as the rule is too messy. There's no reason not to limit it to spells that only target one creature and then add the limitation of only casting it on the user.

War Caster doesn't let you do 'single target Fireball'. For consistency, neither should this, even if it would be of no benefit.

Edit: but the actual idea sounds nice. I just hadn't heard of self-buffing being the intent of those classes, can you elaborate on that?

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Originally Posted by Saiga

I wouldn't even allow stuff like Fireball as the rule is too messy. There's no reason not to limit it to spells that only target one creature and then add the limitation of only casting it on the user.

War Caster doesn't let you do 'single target Fireball'. For consistency, neither should this, even if it would be of no benefit.

Edit: but the actual idea sounds nice. I just hadn't heard of self-buffing being the intent of those classes, can you elaborate on that?

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the "one target, and that target must be the user" is a necessary variant to get the kinds of spells that fit. for example, fly can normally be upcast to hit more than one target. an arcane trickster should imo be able to use magic to help them be better rogues, so a spell like "fly" fits perfectly... but the idea isn't "give unlimited access to all spells", it's "give access to spells that buff the user to help the rogue be a better rogue or the fighter be a better fighter". so an arcane trickster could learn a limited version of fly that only works on themselves with a regular spell known, but if that same arcane trickster wanted to be able to buff someone else or to have it work on two people in a level 4 slot, that would use up an unrestricted spell known. the fireball example was merely to emphasize that the arcane trickster isn't getting just any spell from the list; if they want wall of stone, they can't "target themselves" and get a full wall of stone with a regular spell known, they need to give up a restricted one; if they want fireball, they can't "target themselves" and hit the entire area around them with a regular spell known, they need to give up a restricted one for that as well, because fireball isn't really core to being an arcane trickster. on the other hand, shrinking themselves down so they can fit into a small crack or hide behind a small plant fits; they're using their subclass abilities and their core class abilities to complement each other, and it makes no sense that this kind of trick wouldn't be the kind of thing they learn.

there isn't any fluff in the classes at all, more or less... but if you look at it, the eldritch knight is a fighter subclass that should be enhancing the fighter main class and the arcane trickster is a rogue subclass that should be enhancing the rogue main class, just like a lore bard enhances the main bard class or a totem barbarian enhances the main barbarian class. in other words, you're a fighter (or rogue) first, and an eldritch knight (or arcane trickster) second; the idea that an eldritch knight would struggle to cast a spell like enlarge or haste to help them be a fighter just feels really odd. the spells that can make a fighter be a better fighter should be at least as core to the subclass as magic missile, which has absolutely nothing to do with being a fighter at all but is nevertheless one of the spells an eldritch knight can learn without giving up the special spell known.

seriously, stop fixating on the useless fireball self spell; it is supposed to be useless (and they're supposed to not take it). it's an example of how those specific restrictions allow access to spells that self-buff, but won't just hand over the entire wizard spell list with the claim that you're "targeting yourself" in a way that coincidentally hits a bunch of enemies.

(again, they could still learn fireball using their unrestricted spells known, the difference with the self-buffs I'm proposing they should get is that they wouldn't require those unrestricted spells known, because an arcane trickster should do things like using levitate to get up a slick glass wall that they couldn't climb normally and an eldritch knight should do things like using a haste spell to improve their combat ability, because at the end of the day they're rogues and fighters that are augmenting their rogue and fighter abilities with spellcasting).

I like giving them the opportunity to choose a school.

As an Arcane Trickster, I hate enchantment. It makes them try to do too much. In my mind, not giving them the opportunity to take the school that the class is based around, Conjuration, is ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by Bandari

I like giving them the opportunity to choose a school.

As an Arcane Trickster, I hate enchantment. It makes them try to do too much. In my mind, not giving them the opportunity to take the school that the class is based around, Conjuration, is ludicrous.

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A common house rule that makes a lot of sense to me is to let ATs and EKs choose their two schools of magic. They are 1/3rd casters, it's not going to break anything, and you'll get more interesting and varied builds out of it.

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Originally Posted by Saiga

Edit: but the actual idea sounds nice. I just hadn't heard of self-buffing being the intent of those classes, can you elaborate on that?

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That's because it isn't.

EK is primarily intended to add magical offense, especially AoE damage, which the Fighter chassis lacks. But also a touch of magical defense ... which it already does via having access to Abjuration*. But not magical 'enhancement', the archetype isn't designed to be a GISH, a self-buffing warrior. So this is an unneeded change.

AT is designed to add magical excellence in deceiving opponents. They're the Grey Mouser archetype. Thus illusion and enchantment. So this is an unneeded change.

If you want out-of-archetype self-buffing, there's already of opportunity to add it via the spells that come from any school.

Lastly, neither of these classes needs more power. They're already powerful subclasses on powerful classes.


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*As a side note, other than Shield and Counterspell, the Abjuration school is mostly meaningless to EKs. Their subclass's power comes almost exclusively from Cantrip War Magic, with tactically opportune big Evocation AoE 'boom' damage. IMO that's very intentional choice in terms of schools they get.

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Originally Posted by Tanarii

That's because it isn't.

EK is primarily intended to add magical offense, especially AoE damage, which the Fighter chassis lacks. But also a touch of magical defense ... which it already does via having access to Abjuration*. But not magical 'enhancement', the archetype isn't designed to be a GISH, a self-buffing warrior. So this is an unneeded change.

AT is designed to add magical excellence in deceiving opponents. They're the Grey Mouser archetype. Thus illusion and enchantment. So this is an unneeded change.

If you want out-of-archetype self-buffing, there's already of opportunity to add it via the spells that come from any school.

Lastly, neither of these classes needs more power. They're already powerful subclasses on powerful classes.


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*As a side note, other than Shield and Counterspell, the Abjuration school is mostly meaningless to EKs. Their subclass's power comes almost exclusively from Cantrip War Magic, with tactically opportune big Evocation AoE 'boom' damage. IMO that's very intentional choice in terms of schools they get.

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this argument doesn't make much sense to me. the magical fighter wasn't meant to be a magical fighter, but rather a fighter that is supposed to use magic in ways unrelated to being a fighter? the magical rogue is supposed to use magic, but not to be a better rogue?seems pretty sketchy. i suppose next you'll be telling me that a moon druid conjuring animals before going into battle as a bear is doing it wrong, or that that a war cleric shouldn't be combining their bonus action attack with casting buff spells too?

if the EK and AT were absolutely not supposed to be using buff spells as part of their design, why do they get *any* buff spells that help them do their main class role?

For a homebrew campaign I will be running, I revised both classes in question here, among others.

The AT gets access to the conjuration/summoning school, and better range with his hand at higher levels. The trade off is requirements of at least 13 in cha and int. And 1 magical secrets spell of 3rd level or lower granted at 6th level. No extra slots, no freebee spells cast as effects. And his DC is based off charisma while his spell attack is based off int.

EK requires a 14 int, 10 wis, and gets Eldritch Blast as a freebee cantrip and 1 extra slot at 6th level and again at 10th and 14th.

Both come at a solid cost, however, which helps discourage too many "dump stats" or "uber stats", while adding more forethought into the build and making both classes more dynamic in RP and utility situations-and the AT a little more diverse when it comes to combat situations.

The gish fighter straight class can be a very powerful combat PC, but he is forced to lean towards being more well-rounded rather than loopholing around non-save spells with an 8 in int and still jacking str, con, & dex.

Haven't play tested either yet but I've been homebrewing items and altering classes for a long time and have developed a decent knack for implimenting things that add more to the characters without making them OP. The key is balance. Add more but subtley remove other options. Now an EK has more firepower but with Point Buy, he can't be an ordinary fighter with two or three 8's in his ability scores. Same for AT and his talents, respectively.

I think what the OP is looking for may be a little excessive as a single class. As stated, Enhance Ability is not available and they already get expertise. Without some sacrifice, it just makes them more of a rogue/bard without having to multi-class, which seems to be the solution to the problem.

Good example is a PC I used in SKT. AT 5/Arcana Cleric>. He was not super effective early on, and it took patience, but once I had booming blade & chill touch from his domain, the mobile feat, guidance cantrip, and magic missile in my arsenal, as well as the full-caster/3rd caster slot combination (which actually cost me a slot early on), and spells like bless, healing ability, and other clerical goodness, like having a shield, and utility cantrips, he was a godsend to party survival and doing massive dmg in combat while being nigh untouchable. Add in a familiar aiding himself and others in combat... it was not quite broken, but close. Less a jack of all trades and master of none and more like "damn good at most stuff and sucky at one" (str).

But I had to spend 3/4 of the campaign building him, with a DM who nerfed the crap out of my wood elf hiding and killed my familiar every chance he had. It was a tough road but by level 7, I had what I wanted: a PC with tons of options and someone the party relied upon.

TLDR: I think what the thread author is asking is too OP in regards to just straight class add-ons w/o some trade-off cost, but easily achievable via multiclassing. It will take a little longer but be sooo awesome and worth the wait. Go AT/Lore Bard or EK/Abjurer and you'll have what you want and be challenging your DM to step it up in future encounters.

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Originally Posted by SharkForce

if the EK and AT were absolutely not supposed to be using buff spells as part of their design, why do they get *any* buff spells that help them do their main class role?

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Impressive. First you straw man my point, then end with a fallacy.

they get access to some buffs, by getting access to some non-school-specific spells. But it does not follow that therefore the point of their spells is to self-buff themselves.

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Originally Posted by Tanarii

Impressive. First you straw man my point, then end with a fallacy.

they get access to some buffs, by getting access to some non-school-specific spells. But it does not follow that therefore the point of their spells is to self-buff themselves.

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are you suggesting that you *didn't* say "...the archetype isn't designed to be a GISH, a self-buffing warrior."

or perhaps that you didn't state that their purpose was something else entirely, namely that EK is "...intended to add magical offense, especially AoE damage..." and "...a touch of magical defense...", or that AT is just "...designed to add magical excellence in deceiving opponents..."

you said that the eldritch knight isn't designed to buff itself. if you don't like me pointing that out, then might i suggest you don't say it.

the subclasses shouldn't have to go out of their way to be good at being a magical variant of their main class. it shouldn't be unusual for a magical fighter to learn magic that helps in being a better fighter.

i mean, if eldritch knight is supposed to be a blaster, then it seems like it would be *really* bad design to give them fireball 8 levels after actual blasters had it available, and then to only ever give it to them 2-3 times per day, if that's what they're supposed to use those spell slots on. in fact, you'd think that if they were supposed to be blasters, they wouldn't get spells by school (evocation includes utility spells as well, like darkness and leomund's tiny hut, and even some CC like gust of wind and otiluke's resilient sphere, and damaging spells like cloud of daggers and flaming sphere are conjuration rather than evocation) but rather by function; if a spell deals damage, it would be on their list. if a spell adds to their defense (improves AC, saving throws, or HP) it would be on their list as well.

i mean, if the idea was for eldritch knight to be a blaster, they did a pretty lousy job of it by giving them all the blasting spells at such a major delay after the time when they're most valuable, and by giving far too few spell slots to blast with, and by giving them access to spells that don't even deal damage and missing out on spells that do deal damage. it seems rather suspect to me. if the arcane trickster is only supposed to use spells for deception, they did a pretty lousy job of it by not giving spells like alter self and feign death and nondetection, but giving spells like confusion and phantasmal killer and tasha's uncontrollable hideous laughter. i mean, an arcane trickster needs to go out of their way to learn grease (which sounds like a spell that has *trickster* written all over it to me), but can learn fear no problem? seems a bit fishy to me.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by SharkForce

the subclasses shouldn't have to go out of their way to be good at being a magical variant of their main class. it shouldn't be unusual for a magical fighter to learn magic that helps in being a better fighter.

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That depends on if you want strong archetypes or not.

However, going back and looking at your first post and reading between the lines. you did mostly present this as a personal preference house rule for how you would like the class to work. Not 'this is the way the class should be' or a 'fix'. So my bad. I'll bow out.

Personally I think the simplest way to handle this is to houserule that they can choose which two schools of magic to pick most of their spells from. Choose any 2, and get the normal exceptions from anywhere. EKs who don't like explosions could pick abjuration and transmutation and focus on self-buffs, and an already strong class doesn't get a freebie that might undermine others. But I haven't tried this so the results could be terrifying.

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Originally Posted by Princess

Personally I think the simplest way to handle this is to houserule that they can choose which two schools of magic to pick most of their spells from. Choose any 2, and get the normal exceptions from anywhere. EKs who don't like explosions could pick abjuration and transmutation and focus on self-buffs, and an already strong class doesn't get a freebie that might undermine others. But I haven't tried this so the results could be terrifying.

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I haven't had a problem with this. I even did a more broad version where you picked two schools and a caster class of choice to pick from. Even with this, the most broken thing we could find was warlock for hex and eldritch blast on an EK - powerful offensively but less versatile than wizard and missing spells like shield. As it is you can probably be pretty much as efficient with a dip into warlock anyway.