Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Playground,
I'm trying to see which spell is better if persisted, but I find Greater Blink somewhat unclear. Can I choose to become material right before the casting of my spell, and then become ethereal again right afterwards?
If so then it seems that Greater Blink is better since you're ethereal whenever you need it, and you can go material again once the battle is over, which is something Ghostform doesn't allow.
Spoiler: Blink
Show
Quote:
Physical attacks against you have a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn't help opponents, since you're ethereal and not merely invisible. If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment). If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance). Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
Any individually targeted spell has a 50% chance to fail against you while you're blinking unless your attacker can target invisible, ethereal creatures. Your own spells have a 20% chance to activate just as you go ethereal, in which case they typically do not affect the Material Plane.
While blinking, you take only half damage from area attacks (but full damage from those that extend onto the Ethereal Plane). You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC. You take only half damage from falling, since you fall only while you are material.
While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled. You can move at only three-quarters speed (because movement on the Ethereal Plane is at half speed, and you spend about half your time there and half your time material).
Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones. For instance, your spells against ethereal creatures are 20% likely to activate just as you go material and be lost.
An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures. An ethereal creature can see and hear the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and insubstantial. Sight and hearing on the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet. Force effects (such as magic missile and wall of force) and abjurations affect you normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane (such as the basilisk and its gaze attack. Treat other ethereal creatures and objects as material.
Spoiler: Greater Blink
Show
Quote:
This spell functions like blink (PH 206), except that you have control over the timing of your "blinking" back and forth between the Ethereal Plane and the Material Plane. You can also ready an action to blink away from any physical or magical attack. The attack misses automatically unless it also affects ethereal targets (as a force effect does). While blinking, you have no chance of interfering with your own attacks or your own spells. When moving through solid objects, you do not risk materializing inside one unless you actually end your movement there, in which case you materialize and are shunted off to the nearest open space, taking 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet traveled in this manner.
Spoiler: Ghostform
Show
Quote:
You assume a visible, incorporeal form like that of a manifesting ghost. You have no physical body while in this state. You can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. You are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, you have a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Non damaging spell effects affect you normally unless they require corporeal targets to function (such as implosion) or they create a corporeal effect that incorporeal creatures would normally be unaffected by (such as a web or wall of stone spell).
As an incorporeal creature, you have no natural armor bonus but have a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if your Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
You can enter or pass through solid objects while in ghostform, but you must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than your own. You can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to your current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from you while you are inside an object. In order to see farther from the object you are in and attack normally, you must emerge. While inside an object, you have total cover, but when you attack a creature outside the object you have cover only, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at you as you attack. You cannot pass through a force effect.
While under the effect of ghostform, your attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against you. Your nonmagical attacks have no effect on corporeal targets, and any attack you make with a magic weapon against a corporeal target has a 50% miss chance, except for attacks you make with a ghost touch weapon, while are made normally (no miss chance). Spells you cast while in ghostform affect corporeal targets normally, including spells that require you to make an attack roll (such as rays or melee touch spells). You can pass through and operate in water as easily as you do in air. You cannot fall or take falling damage. You cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can you be tripped or grappled. In fact, you cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are you subject to such actions. You have no weight while in ghostform and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
You move silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if you don't wish to be while in ghostform. You have no Strength score while incorporeal, so your Dexterity modifier applies to both your melee attacks and ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to you. You have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when you cannot see.
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Two big differences I see looks to be:
1. Ghostform lets you bypass natural armor, shields, and armor bonuses to AC. Ghostform also makes you use your Dex mod for melee attack accuracy. The Blinks do not mention bypassing such.
2. Blink lets you pass through walls of any length, while Ghostform requires you to remain adjacent to open space.
For the rest, I'll let more of an expert say. #1 is good for Ghostform, but the utility-level differs on who you fight and what your Dex mod is. #2 is better for Blink, but that may or may not matter a lot to you.
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
There are also difference between being ethereal and incorporeal. Ghost Touch hits incorporeal things, but not ethereal, but on the other hand, being ethereal opens you up to a whole plane of potential threats.
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JeenLeen
Two big differences I see looks to be:
1. Ghostform lets you bypass natural armor, shields, and armor bonuses to AC. Ghostform also makes you use your Dex mod for melee attack accuracy. The Blinks do not mention bypassing such.
2. Blink lets you pass through walls of any length, while Ghostform requires you to remain adjacent to open space.
For the rest, I'll let more of an expert say. #1 is good for Ghostform, but the utility-level differs on who you fight and what your Dex mod is. #2 is better for Blink, but that may or may not matter a lot to you.
Isn't 1 unimportant if you are, say, Lv5 Wizard Lv10 Incantatrix Lv5 Archmage? You should never need melee attacks, and NA/Shields/Armor do not apply to Touch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chronos
There are also difference between being ethereal and incorporeal. Ghost Touch hits incorporeal things, but not ethereal, but on the other hand, being ethereal opens you up to a whole plane of potential threats.
I've always thought that the ethereal plane was as frequented/populated as a desert.
Side note, Greater Blink reads:
Quote:
You can also ready an action to blink away from any physical or magical attack. The attack misses automatically unless it also affects ethereal targets (as a force effect does).
Isn't this better than the 50% chance thing incorporeal people have?
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pippin
I've always thought that the ethereal plane was as frequented/populated as a desert.
Yes, but you really do not want to see their version of a snake.
Quote:
Isn't this better than the 50% chance thing incorporeal people have?
Yes, but at the cost of a readied action, while the 50% miss chance from incorporeal is automatic. Note Greater Blink still hands you a miss chance.
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZamielVanWeber
Yes, but you really do not want to see their version of a snake.
Yes, but at the cost of a readied action, while the 50% miss chance from incorporeal is automatic. Note Greater Blink still hands you a miss chance.
What "snakes" do you have in mind?
My point was, if you are ethereal all the time but when you cast your spells, you are untouchable (minus the force spells, etc.). You don't wait for something to happen to blink out, you blink out as soon as you're done casting.
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pippin
What "snakes" do you have in mind?
The ethergaunts. They all cast as mid to high level wizards and have massive int to back it up. There are also ghosts, ethereal dragons (not too dangerous, but still), tome dragons exploring the ethereal, ethereal cyclones, and, my personal favorite, plopping directly on top of an ethereal curtain. That only happened once, but boy was it disastrous.
Also what you are describing is not how Greater Blink works. You are blinking and get all the benefits. You ignore the "you miss 20% of the time" because you control the timing, but you must still blink in and out. It gives you the option at burn a standard out of sequence (a readied action) to make an attack miss you altogether. You don't get to cast and go perma-ethereal.
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZamielVanWeber
The ethergaunts. They all cast as mid to high level wizards and have massive int to back it up. There are also ghosts, ethereal dragons (not too dangerous, but still), tome dragons exploring the ethereal, ethereal cyclones, and, my personal favorite, plopping directly on top of an ethereal curtain. That only happened once, but boy was it disastrous.
Also what you are describing is not how Greater Blink works. You are blinking and get all the benefits. You ignore the "you miss 20% of the time" because you control the timing, but you must still blink in and out. It gives you the option at burn a standard out of sequence (a readied action) to make an attack miss you altogether. You don't get to cast and go perma-ethereal.
I see. In this case Greater Blink isn't as good as Ghostform at all...
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pippin
I see. In this case Greater Blink isn't as good as Ghostform at all...
Not true. Greater Blink protects against targeted spells; incorporeal isn't as good as that. The trick is just don't spam it at and laugh at your DM all day; they can make you regret it.
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Greater blink is also rather nice as a melee buff for an eldritch knight style character. Ghostform gives you a 50% miss chance with all your attacks unless you have a ghost touch weapon (which, even if you do have one, is not the most efficient enhancement to have on your primary weapon). Greater blink doesn't give you a miss chance and also lets you strike as invisible (except that blindfight does not help). It's probably not a big deal, but ghostform also negates any natural armor bonus you have and greater blink does not.
I would think that all told, greater blink is a clear winner if you want to attack your foes with weapons and ghostform has an edge for someone who just wants to contribute with spells.
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
I think I agree with Elder_Basilisk. I think the reason I disliked Ghostform as a spell when building a wizard was that I didn't want to be stuck in incorporeal form or feel pressured to drop the spell if it became disadvantage, but I can see it being good for spellcasters.
With Greater Blink, is the consensus that you cannot control your blinking to such a degree that you simply stay ethereal for a while?
In response to ZamielVanWeber, although denizens of the ethereal planes are a potential threat, I think it's relatively unlikely to happen when you're traveling coterminous with the material plane. Though if you use it to a degree that it bugs the DM or disrupts the story, that could a valid disincentive the DM could use to discourage such practices.
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JeenLeen
In response to ZamielVanWeber, although denizens of the ethereal planes are a potential threat, I think it's relatively unlikely to happen when you're traveling coterminous with the material plane. Though if you use it to a degree that it bugs the DM or disrupts the story, that could a valid disincentive the DM could use to discourage such practices.
This is almost exactly what I said. Empty, but you don't wanna see what is in there (abuse the spell and your DM will probably dump what is in there on you).
Also isn't the entire Ethereal Plane coterminous with the Material?
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
"Permeable form" almost always dominates "Ghostform" when persistent spell is in play.
Re: Ghostform vs. Greater Blink
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JeenLeen
With Greater Blink, is the consensus that you cannot control your blinking to such a degree that you simply stay ethereal for a while?
I would say that you have to enter the material plane at least once per round based on the text that, if you end your movement in a solid object, you become material and are forcibly ejected. Since you can only get more than a 50% miss chance by readying an action, it would appear that you might have to blink more often than that, but that could also be explained by some kind of duration effect: you slow down your blinking so it's one long blink. Bottom line, you can't get more than a 50% miss chance without readying an action, and if you end your movement in a square occupied by a solid object, you are forcibly ejected and take damage. I think that's sufficient to conclude that it's not ethereal jaunt (though it might be enough to do some ethereal plane adventuring.
