Character advice; a dual wield axe user

Hello again ;)


I am still working on putting together my crazy campaign, and my players foolishly think I'm the person to ask questions on making; they don't know I run ideas by the forum people here ;)


Anyway, I'm trying to help a player optimize his damage out put while wielding two axes. Race and class don't seem to matter as much as being able to charge the front lines and do crazy amounts of damage. Being stealthy is also a bonus. So naturally, wanting to dual wield and be stealthy, I start thinking of the Ranger and the Scout. reading the descriptions, I figured scout would be more suited to this, but then when using the character builder, the scout uses all stances and no powers. I can't see how that balances out.

So I start looking into options, such as a regular ranger. Trying to think of more options, I thought of things as a hybrid character, or remember the 'two blade warrior' multi class feat. But as I play with such options on the character builder, the hybrid for some odd reason can't seem to dual wield, and if I go multi class it doesn't seem like any other class powers make use of the second weapon. That doesn't make sense to me.

So long story short: is there any other way than pure ranger to be good at dual wielding? It seems like a common enough of an idea that it would be better implemented, but I can't seem to figure out any other way to make it work without home ruling it. Any suggestions of making this work would be most appreciated!

V

Dual-wielding is the ranger's shtick. Only a couple other specialty builds can do it (tempest fighter). But, there's no need to look past ranger: it's the best at maximizing damage, and can be stealthy if you want.

Dual-wielding is granted through powers, not other means. If a power (like Twin Strike) tells you to use two weapons, you can. Otherwise, you can't. Hybrids rangers can, but only when using the ranger powers that specifically state "Two Melee Weapons".

There are fighter and barbarian builds that are two weapon focused, but if he wants twin axes, damage, and stealth, you'll be hard pressed to be a Ranger. Twin Strike and Marauder's Rush so he can charge in then wail on stuff.

Any Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian combo would fit if he wants to be a hybrid.

The fighter and barbarian also have two-weapon fighting support, but pound for pound the ranger is probably the best. The Scout works just fine with this; like many Essential martial classes, they simply use a "basic melee attack" (which the stance usually augments) and get access to "Dual Weapon Attack" which gives them a free swing of their off-hand weapon once a round.

That said, the core Ranger gets access to some ridiculous powers that can allow static modifiers (i.e. strength, feat bonuses, magic items, frostcheese, etc.) to get added multiple times.

Axes are generally a bit inferior to swords (as no axe to my knowledge offers a +3 proficiency bonus), but with AV you can get a Waraxe for a d12 weapon which is pretty rad. You can also take advantage of Headman's Chop if you've got an ally who can reliably prone enemies for you.

If you're using axes or hammers, it's pathetically easy to qualify for heavy armor at the same time (you want at least scale). I had a dwarf ranger recently did just that. But don't go for the waraxe unless you're a dwarf; superior one-handed weapons aren't.

Other than that, no, there isn't much in the way of choice. Certain oddball avenger builds (almost invariably requiring half-elf) can pull it off, though.

If he really wanted a bizarre build, he could go for a warlock using a pair of pact blades, bard using song blades, or a sorcerer with paired daggers. None of them have two weapon attacks, but can benefit from dual implement spellcaster feat, and it flat out looks cool.

Even when the Fighter leans Striker, it doesn't come close to the Ranger's DPR, and the two weapon Barbarian is considered the weakest of the builds.

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Originally Posted by Odessa333

Hello again ;)

I am still working on putting together my crazy campaign, and my players foolishly think I'm the person to ask questions on making; they don't know I run ideas by the forum people here ;)

Anyway, I'm trying to help a player optimize his damage out put while wielding two axes. Race and class don't seem to matter as much as being able to charge the front lines and do crazy amounts of damage. Being stealthy is also a bonus. So naturally, wanting to dual wield and be stealthy, I start thinking of the Ranger and the Scout. reading the descriptions, I figured scout would be more suited to this, but then when using the character builder, the scout uses all stances and no powers. I can't see how that balances out.

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Melee basic attack + Good stance > At Will power - for practical purposes most At Will powers for weapon users are a MBA with a slight upgrade. And the Scout has good melee basic attacks and good stances. Scouts gain the Dual Strike attack (or whatever it's called) meaning that if they hit with the first axe they get a free swing with the second.

Working from memory a first level dex 20 scout with Axe Expertise in Charging Ram stance does on the charge:

+9 to hit (+5 stat, +2 axe, +1 expertise, +2 stance) doing d10+9 damage and reroll 1s (reroll 1s) (d10 axe + 5 (stat) + 2 (spinning axe mastery) +2 (stance)).
Follow up with handaxe if you hit:
+10 to hit (+5 stat, +2 axe, +1 expertise, Combat advantage as the enemy is now prone) doing d6+7 damage (reroll 1s).

Average damage assuming two hits: 26. Not bad for an at will attack by a first level PC with no magic items.

So yes, scouts can keep up and absolutely make mincemeat of low AC foes. (Needing to hit twice is a serious problem against soldiers and other high AC foes).

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So long story short: is there any other way than pure ranger to be good at dual wielding?

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Rangers, Scouts, Fighters, and Barbarians all have ways of wielding a pair of axes to make monster-cuisineart.

Yeah, either TWF Ranger or Scout will work wonderfully. I'd honestly base the choice on the character's race. Strength bonus? Go with Ranger. Dex? Go with Scout.

I'd push for Scout for a newer player. They hold their own damage-wise, and have better defenses in general.

Axe Ranger Dwarf Ironwrought
Pixie Axe Scout mounted on a Displacer beast (Feywilde Beast Tamer)
Barbarian double-axe Whirling Slayer Orc
Human Hybrid Tempest Fighter|Ranger using Handaxes