Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: V's reasoning for killing Kubota was incredibly wrong and a major indicator of vir moral descent to come, but "Disintegrate. Gust of wind" was nonetheless one of the most satisfying moments in the comic for me. V did it for the wrong reasons, but Kubota fully deserved it.

"O'chul (sic) was militaristic and self centered is this week's "Durkon's mom was selfish."

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Originally Posted by Sloanzilla

"O'chul (sic) was militaristic and self centered is this week's "Durkon's mom was selfish."

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Yeah, but at least this version of board contrarian was easier to talk to.

Oh beyond any doubt.

Um, has anyone figured out what kind of animal the melon-loving critter that chats with Saha was? It sort of looks like a coatimundi to me, but I’m probably nuts.

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Originally Posted by Zea mays

Um, has anyone figured out what kind of animal the melon-loving critter that chats with Saha was? It sort of looks like a coatimundi to me, but I’m probably nuts.

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Badger, why not. Badger's a good animal. Nice, simple, easy name. I say badger.

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Originally Posted by Zea mays

Um, has anyone figured out what kind of animal the melon-loving critter that chats with Saha was? It sort of looks like a coatimundi to me, but I’m probably nuts.

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Badger's been my guess.

It seems too easy- going to be a badger. :confused:

Maybe it’s just an extremely laid-back member of an intense species. Sure.

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Originally Posted by Zea mays

It seems too easy- going to be a badger. :confused:

Maybe it’s just an extremely laid-back member of an intense species. Sure.

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Admittedly, I'd be a lot more certain of badger-dom if the page had contained mushrooms and a snake.

In any case, Saha's a ranger; a wild empathy check to improve the attitude of any animal isn't out of the question, and explicitly drawing attention to it could be a distraction.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

My favorite legal charge is criminal mischief, if only because it conjures up imaged in my head of misdemeanor hootinanny or felony shenanigans.

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"Yesterday some hooligans knocked over a dustbin in Shaftesbury."

Heh, I just realized on my second read of "Spoiler Alert" that Kubota hearing rumbling and thinking it might rain throws forward to half a page later.

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Originally Posted by Ruck

"Yesterday some hooligans knocked over a dustbin in Shaftesbury."

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Never actually heard Bill Hicks before, that was pretty funny. Reminded me of the gun buying scene in In Bruges.

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Originally Posted by DaggerPen

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: V's reasoning for killing Kubota was incredibly wrong and a major indicator of vir moral descent to come, but "Disintegrate. Gust of wind" was nonetheless one of the most satisfying moments in the comic for me. V did it for the wrong reasons, but Kubota fully deserved it.

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I think everyone who's ever played an RPG has treated at least one NPC boss with some variation of that.

"If you agree to my demands, I'll release these hostages unharmed, and then we can-" BOOM- Headshot. "DUDE! That was the boss of the kidnapper gang!" "Exactly. He was annoying me. And now the rest of the gang are easy pickings, they're like 2nd level. They'll never have time to kill all the hostages."

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Originally Posted by LadyEowyn

Gin-Jun says in Scar that his last chance at destroying the Crimson Mantle - in what is clearly the massacre of Redcloak's village - was 22 years ago. SOD says that was 34 years before the start of DCF.

So that would suggest Scar happens 12 years before DCF, but that doesn't fit with Hinjo's (or Miko's) age at all - Hinjo comes across as maybe 15-16 in Scar, at youngest. I think we just have to accept the Giant's comment in the preface to GDGU that he's not very good at timelines.

Where does War&XP mention Hinjo's age?

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It's worth noting that Scar is supposed to be earlier, chronologically, than the Lien story, since the intro says the stories are in reverse chronological order. And we know Lien is 5 years older than Hinjo (Paladin Blues bonus strips - the underwater arc). Making her 28 in "the present" (possibly 29, if a year has gone by since Hinjo turned 23).

In her own story she is young enough that the paladins need to ask her parents permission before recruiting her (which they plan to do about a week after the story takes place). That means the story takes place at least 10, maybe 11 years before the present - she's unlikely to be older than 18. Miko was the same age as Lien - and is called "child" and "Teen Monk" in Scar.

So - we're kind of stuck with Scar being 12 or so years before the present.

Hinjo being a very mature 12 year old is weird, but we may be stuck with it.

Come to think of it - after all those resignations - it makes sense for the Sapphire Guard to be doing some recruiting (with extra caution about "Do they know right from wrong") and Lien being one of the first recruits to the "New Improved Sapphire Guard".

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Originally Posted by Zea mays

It seems too easy- going to be a badger. :confused:

Maybe it’s just an extremely laid-back member of an intense species. Sure.

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That might work. Badgers don't usually have long tails. Wolverines do though - and they scavenge as well as hunting. An "incredibly laid-back wolverine" would be pretty humorous, given their stereotype is of extreme belligerence.

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Originally Posted by hamishspence

An "incredibly laid-back wolverine" would be pretty humorous, given their stereotype is of extreme belligerence.

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Do University of Michigan Wolverines fans really have that reputation? I thought it was more of an Ohio State Buckeye thing... (especially when I remember Woody Hayes)

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Originally Posted by hamishspence

Hinjo being a very mature 12 year old is weird, but we may be stuck with it.

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The visual character design is not that of a 12-year-old, but besides that I think the characterization could work. He's got the "I am an adult now, capable of taking on adult tasks" attitude that is the essence of being 12. :smallwink: (cf: O-Chul's talk about swordfighting, his "diplomacy", the fact that Saha and even frickin' Bo backtalk about O-Chul's ultimate plan, whereas he is just "this seems like a great idea sir!")

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Originally Posted by hamishspence

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That might work. Badgers don't usually have long tails. Wolverines do though - and they scavenge as well as hunting. An "incredibly laid-back wolverine" would be pretty humorous, given their stereotype is of extreme belligerence.

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...The thing mentions hanging out with its friends and eating melons, neither of which are stereotypical wolverine activities. "Sammy was killed by a leopard" is mentioned casually, like getting killed by a leopard is just a thing that happens. Getting killed by a leopard is not a thing that happens to wolverines. Thor save you from pesky pedantic biologists. :smallwink:


As for Hinjo - I like Zyzzyva's analysis. Maybe he just had a magic item that made him look older.

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Originally Posted by DaggerPen

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: V's reasoning for killing Kubota was incredibly wrong and a major indicator of vir moral descent to come, but "Disintegrate. Gust of wind" was nonetheless one of the most satisfying moments in the comic for me. V did it for the wrong reasons, but Kubota fully deserved it.

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In game and in context V did it for all of the right reasons, part of the reasons being that Elan would have been acting out of character had he done so. (yes, this is a bit of a meta take).

V perceived what Elan could not: he was dealing with a rules lawyer, and therefore The Enemy.
As Dave Arneson put it: I dislike “Rules Lawyers” intensely. I regard them as the enemy. :smallwink: (Yes, that's a little meta... )

V was right in doing that, no matter how wrong in all other respects V might have been. V not being LG is part of why V could do that. Elan being CG should have been able to do it, but I think Rich doesn't want that on Elan's conscience due to how bound Elan is to the narrative. (more meta) Plus, V was already into the big E about neck deep at that point. Kubota was a trivial concern as compared to the Team Evil Xykon issue V was dealing with, and V's own descent into E to serve own ends.

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Originally Posted by hamishspence

It's worth noting that Scar is supposed to be earlier, chronologically, than the Lien story, since the intro says the stories are in reverse chronological order. And we know Lien is 5 years older than Hinjo (Paladin Blues bonus strips - the underwater arc). Making her 28 in "the present" (possibly 29, if a year has gone by since Hinjo turned 23).

In her own story she is young enough that the paladins need to ask her parents permission before recruiting her (which they plan to do about a week after the story takes place). That means the story takes place at least 10, maybe 11 years before the present - she's unlikely to be older than 18. Miko was the same age as Lien - and is called "child" and "Teen Monk" in Scar.

So - we're kind of stuck with Scar being 12 or so years before the present.

Hinjo being a very mature 12 year old is weird, but we may be stuck with it.

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So, had Gin-Jun dated his infamous raid to be 26 years ago, the timeline would have fit like a glove? Looks like an easy thing to retcon, since the number 22 does not seem to have any special significance in the story and any similar number would do. And yeah, Hinjo being twelve is a bigger stretch.

Yeah, Hinjo strikes me as 15-16 in How the Paladin Got His Scar. He's old enough to start wanting to handle more adult responsibilities in preparation for his future role-- I don't think 12 is old enough for that. (And despite the circumstances, I think O-Chul would balk at pouring neat whiskey for a 12-year-old-- and similarly that Shojo would probably think that age still too young for learning the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard.)

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Originally Posted by Ruck

Yeah, Hinjo strikes me as 15-16 in How the Paladin Got His Scar. He's old enough to start wanting to handle more adult responsibilities in preparation for his future role-- I don't think 12 is old enough for that. (And despite the circumstances, I think O-Chul would balk at pouring neat whiskey for a 12-year-old-- and similarly that Shojo would probably think that age still too young for learning the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard.)

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OK, that's fair - my big hangup, likewise, was Nguyen explaining O-Chul's mission to a 12-year-old, which just seems unlikely regardless of what seal he's got.

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Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

OK, that's fair - my big hangup, likewise, was Nguyen explaining O-Chul's mission to a 12-year-old, which just seems unlikely regardless of what seal he's got.

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Hinjo presumably claimed he was acting on the authority of the Lord of the City, or at least insinuated that such could be the case. Nguyen might be confused as to why Shojo was sending such a young boy on the mission, but, assuming he was sure Hinjo was the person he claimed to be, I’m not sure why he would go against the (perceived) wishes of his ruler just because of Hinjo’s youth.

He was also seriously wounded, so we can’t necessarily assume he was in a 100% lucid frame of mind. Lucid enough to talk, clearly, and to remember things, but not necessarily enough to be as shrewd as he might normally be.

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Originally Posted by Ruck

Yeah, Hinjo strikes me as 15-16 in How the Paladin Got His Scar. He's old enough to start wanting to handle more adult responsibilities in preparation for his future role-- I don't think 12 is old enough for that. (And despite the circumstances, I think O-Chul would balk at pouring neat whiskey for a 12-year-old-- and similarly that Shojo would probably think that age still too young for learning the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard.)

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So what I think we may be getting at...is that if the age of majority (or the equivalent) in Azure City was 21 rather than 18, and we bump hamishspence's age estimates up by three years as a result; it's easier to accept?

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Originally Posted by Jasdoif

So what I think we may be getting at...is that if the age of majority (or the equivalent) in Azure City was 21 rather than 18, and we bump hamishspence's age estimates up by three years as a result; it's easier to accept?

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The age estimate is based on Hinjo's age in War & XP, not an age of majority thing, though.

Hinjo could have looked older. For instance, my husband was 6'6" when he was 13, and had a full beard. Ever without going that far, Hinjo could have been 12 and looked 15 or 16.

It's kind of weird to me that people are looking for ideas as to how Hinjo could have been 12 in HtPGHS rather than going with the already-noted points that Rich by his own admission isn't great with timelines and nothing changes in the story if we replace Gin-Jun's "22 years ago" with "26 years ago".

Hinjo is supposed to be around 15-16, and it's a binturong.

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Originally Posted by Jasdoif

So what I think we may be getting at...is that if the age of majority (or the equivalent) in Azure City was 21 rather than 18, and we bump hamishspence's age estimates up by three years as a result; it's easier to accept?

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Hmm, I guess if we're talking Lien specifically, I suppose so. The story was still twelve years before the events of the comic, though, right? So it would still mess up Hinjo's age.

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Originally Posted by ti'esar

It's kind of weird to me that people are looking for ideas as to how Hinjo could have been 12 in HtPGHS rather than going with the already-noted points that Rich by his own admission isn't great with timelines and nothing changes in the story if we replace Gin-Jun's "22 years ago" with "26 years ago".

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Oh, yeah, I definitely go with this whenever something seems off in a timeline for events that happened before the main comic. (edit: And this works, if we just assume "Pier Pressure" took place earlier than "How the Paladin Got His Scar." Seven to eight years ago works much better with Hinjo's and Miko's ages.)

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Originally Posted by Ruck

Yeah, Hinjo strikes me as 15-16 in How the Paladin Got His Scar.

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Originally Posted by The Giant

Hinjo is supposed to be around 15-16

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Woo, validated! Now to sit back and wait patiently for the MITD's reveal

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Originally Posted by The Giant

and it's a binturong.

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Damn, Rich, your awesomeness just grows and grows. Please start writing prose novels that I can buy to give to people who don't care about fantasy.

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Originally Posted by ti'esar

It's kind of weird to me that people are looking for ideas as to how Hinjo could have been 12 in HtPGHS rather than going with the already-noted points that Rich by his own admission isn't great with timelines and nothing changes in the story if we replace Gin-Jun's "22 years ago" with "26 years ago".

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Imean, it doesn't even need to be that; Gin-Jun could be (and likely is) referring to a different incident.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

Imean, it doesn't even need to be that; Gin-Jun could be (and likely is) referring to a different incident.

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It literally recreates a panel from Start of Darkness while he's talking about it.