WOAH. This is bookmarked, because it'll take me ages to look through that...
AND I CAN'T WAIT.
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WOAH. This is bookmarked, because it'll take me ages to look through that...
AND I CAN'T WAIT.
Ok.... it took me a while to look at this. I figured it was just another magic system, nothing to get excited about.
After reading it, I am excited.
I'm going to be playing a Stoichen Air Elemental Adept in a PbP here in a little bit, and I'm about as excited about this as I've ever been about a new subsystem. I'm also considering giving this written-in support in my worldbuilding project (see sig), pending your permission.
This is truly excellent work. Well done.
I updated the table of contents for Codex I to include links to the various bits of the rules and noted which one has the descriptions of the circles.Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Mage-King
Of course permission is granted! All of this stuff is completely open to whatever uses people have for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyntonian
I'm thrilled to hear so much excitement coming in. I'm incredibly excited about writing this stuff, and it's refreshing to get that sort of energy back.
I, personally would like to provide a touch of feedback.
I'm building a Dragonheart Adept for a PbP game, and I suffer a lot from (for lack of a better term) Cool Thing Syndrome. I've got too few Formula/Maneuvers known/prepared, in my honest opinion. You can build yourself as a caster or as a melee, but Gishing is hard.
It's also a baseline improvement over the DFA, but that's not always a bad thing.
How does Tactical Spellshaper affect my Spellshape Breath Weapon
I mean, Dragonheart Adept was, on one level, intended to do what Dragonfire Adept tried to do, just better. So, the improvement is somewhat intentional.
In terms of maneuvers/formulae known/prepared, how badly do you feel the pressure? Part of the problem here is that you get invocations, formulae, and maneuvers. I don't want there to be so many abilities that you can just do everything. On the other hand, it's quite entirely intended to gish well. So, what numbers would feel right? This is actually a pretty important question to get down to figuring out, since the current plan is to write a generalist spellshaper/initiator class in the near future.
Tactical Shaper would logically double the extent of your breath weapon. However, Precise Shaper does absolutely diddly jack for you, so it's a two-feat investment.
Part of the problem, I think, is that prerequisites exist. Tiger Claw is very prerequisite heavy, enough that if you get into it, it's going to end up taking a significant chunk of your maneuvers. It's also hard to get into later.
Combine with the... Slightly awkward recharge, you can't focus on Martial exclusively. The Spellshape Breath Weapon also adds some awkwardness, though the AoE is quite nifty. Especially with a Debuffing Circle. I'm combining Perfect Freeze with Eternal Moment, so it's going to be pretty awesome.
But, to refocus. The armor proficiency is a bit low; Scales help, but weapon proficiency is also low, so you'd be focusing on your natural weapons, and those don't deal nearly enough damage. Your spellshaping is also low, because your Spellshape attack has a cooldown, which bites into your capacity to refresh maneuvers. It's still Tier 3, but I would argue that it suffers from Master of None at low levels.
Of course, me NOT focusing on Tiger Claw and instead focusing on my secondary discipline in order to grab more Swift Action maneuvers and also getting Minor Formula a bunch might have an effect.
Okay, so I looked at the Tiger Claw prerequisites. Anything up through 6th level only requires you to know two maneuvers. So, what I'm thinking is that I might bump up formulae/maneuvers known at 1st level to 10. If you take all the 1st-level Tiger Claw maneuvers and all the 1st-level formulae from both of your circles, that still lets you pick up two maneuvers from your second discipline. After that, since you gain one formula or maneuver each level--and you can swap them out at even-numbered levels--it's not particularly difficult to pick up a third Tiger Claw maneuver and thereby meet the maneuvers known prerequisites for the entire discipline. Similarly, meeting prerequisites for your spellshaping circles and your second discipline should be pretty easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by NineThePuma
Formulae/Maneuvers prepared will not be changed, but I'm hoping that the next change will make it less awkward.
So, I'm thinking that, at 4th level, a shiny new class feature will be added. It will allow you to channel your spellshape attack through your natural weapons in the same manner that a spellshape champion does. However, this is only available while your breath weapon is recharging.Quote:
Originally Posted by NineThePuma
In addition, you'll get a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls with your natural weapons. This will increase by +1 for every three initiator levels you gain beyond 4th, to a maximum of +6 at 19th level.
Hopefully, that will serve to both make your natural attacks less pitiful and to make the juggling of formulae and maneuvers less awkward.
Thoughts?
I think my issue is that, at level 1, you're going to need to pick up at least two maneuvers from Tiger claw if you want to have more than just Sudden Leap. I'm not planning to be TWF, so that leads into me being less keen on grabbing wolf fang strike. But that boost removes my having to pick between circles (the two I picked are both very good, though I think I'd want Searing Flame for better damage.
That would work quite well, I think. I might drop it from Enhancement to Attack and Damage and instead make it elemental damage matching your primary circle? Of course, this is because Necklaces of Natural Attacks exist, but that might push damage too high.
Changes are up.
Hrm. If ten maneuvers/formulae isn't enough...well, that runs into problems. Thing is, there are other disciplines that only have two 1st-level formulae. If I gave you eleven maneuvers/formulae known, it would be possible--depending on your discipline choices--to have more "known" than are actually available.
I'm going to leave the bonus as an enhancement for now. Thing is, a standard Necklace of Natural Attacks only applies to one natural attack. Adding it to multiple attacks requires multiplication of the price. The equivalent cost for a +5 enhancement bonus to all six of your natural attacks would be over 300,000 gp. As it is now, you can get a Necklace of Natural Attacks that just gives you special properties--of which there are a lot--and only apply it to your most favored attacks...without penalizing your other attacks too severely.
Ooh, yeah. That's a good point.
Also: I'd like to motion that you remove any references to "maximums" because otherwise RAW dms will stop those featuresfrom scaling into epic.
Agh, I always forget about epic. Okay, that one's going to take me a while--I have to sniff out all the mentions of maximums, then gratuitously remove them. Right now, I'm in the middle of compiling a PDF, so take this as OFFICIAL ERRATA until I get around to doing that.
This ruling is immortalized here, in the "Notes on the Rules of Spellshaping" section.Quote:
Originally Posted by OFFICIAL ERRATA
Other Update: Because it was difficult to find, the Idiosyncratic Shaper alternative class feature has been re-posted in all the base class threads.
PDF Progress Update (12/29/11): I'm forcing myself to work on the Codex II PDF, bit by bit, and I've gotten into a fairly decent pace. It should not take more than a few days for me to finish it, though I'm currently being hampered even more than usual due to the necessity of applying for summer internships.
Post-PDF Projections: The first thing that I'm going to try to get up will be the as-of-yet-unnamed generalist spellshaper/initiator, whose entire existence is currently shrouded in mystery. I'm sorting through a bunch of ideas, so we'll see how that turns out.
After that, I'm going to put up the also-as-of-yet-unnamed fire-based spellshaper. It is basically my gift to myself, existing simultaneously as a callback to the origins of this project (a pyromancer class) and an exploration of the different things that I can do with my favorite element (which is fire). It will start with access to Searing Flame, then gain additional circles in a way similar to the anchorite. These additional circles will all be automatically reshaped, as with the dragonheart adept.
The next thing that I hope to write--and these are all hopes, mind you, I have no idea how much of this will actually be feasible--will be a new circle. Screeching Roc, a sound-based circle. Yes, it is a pun. No, I have no regrets.
After that--jeez, this is a long To-Do list--I'm planning to post some new options for the elemental adept, as it is currently one of the most limited classes.
- The first set of options will be alternatives to the current secondary circles (Shocking Current, Deteriorating Corrosion, Brilliant Dawn, and Perfect Freeze). This variant will result in the following elemental circle combinations: Blustering Gale/Unseen Impetus, Crushing Stone/Screeching Roc, Searing Flame/Shocking Current, and Roaring Tide/Deteriorating Corrosion.
- The second addition will be the creation of the paraelemental adept, who draws his power from the paraelemental planes of cold, magma, ooze, and smoke. I haven't decided on the exact circle combinations that will be granted, but I do know that I'm going to have rules for ice, magma, ooze, and smoke elemental companions.
- Finally, new feats will be added that are designed to be taken by an elemental adept's elemental companion. I haven't fleshed these out much, but they'll include the ability to change size as a full-round action. I'm also hoping to let elemental companions play with formulae somehow, but I haven't figured that out yet.
Next, I'm going to attack the idea of writing an illusion-based circle that deals nonlethal damage. I have no idea whether I'll succeed in writing this--of all the ideas listed here, it's the one that I'm least sure will happen. No promises here, but I'll at least look into it.
Finally, I'm planning to write a prestige class or series of prestige classes that combines the powers of Brilliant Dawn and Devouring Shadow. I don't know much about what I'm going to do with this one yet, except that I'll almost certainly let you adjust the ambient light level as a supernatural ability.
First off.. just wow... I am so incredibly impressed with your work. I plan on integrating into my upcoming games and of thought about using the Codices as a basis for a team bad guys that I think will confuse the hell out of the PC's. :smallsmile:
I do however have a 2 quick questions:
1)Concerning the Anchorites Spellshape Aura, all of the abilities are based off Shaper lvls, which I love, however the number of active auras at once is dependent on Anchorite lvl. I bring this up because the Ardent SoulShaper, which is The Prestige class for the Anchorite, does not stack with Anchorite for the number of active auras. Unless the Ardent SoulShapers class fearture SoulShape Aura is suppose to imply this, if so could we clarify a bit plz?
2)Concerning the Heart of the Legion Ardent Soulshaper class feature. Is the damage split before any DR or resistance of the targeted person is considered or after. Likewise if I had DR10/- and my mage friend got hit for 20 dam by a longsword, I fortify the mage and thus take the 10 dam... is it negated by my DR or do I just take the damage because I fortified him?
Any clarifications would be appreciated.
Once again kudos to you sir for such fine work. I understand that some may see it as either too weak or too powerful, I myself prefer to think of it as flavourful and interesting.
Anchorite auras scale with shaper level so that your class features do not become irrelevant. However, the ability to project multiple auras, and to change between auras more quickly, is something that you must give up in order to pursue a prestige class. This is entirely intentional. Remember, the ardent soulshaper is open to any spellshaper that can project a spellshape aura, not just anchorites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias1313
This has now been errataed for clarity: "Damage reduction and energy resistances or immunities do not apply to damage taken from fortifying an ally." Also, note that the damage that would be dealt is divided among the characters, not the damage that would be taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias1313
For example, let's say that person A is going to take 100 damage. Persons B, C, and D decide to fortify her. Now, person A has DR 10/-, so she'd only take 90 points of damage. However, since it's the damage that would be dealt that would be divided, each character will be dealt 25 points of damage, not 22.5 damage. Now, person A's DR applies, so she only takes 15 points of damage. However, even if persons B, C, and D also have DR 10/-, they will all take the full 25 points of damage.
What's this? A Codex II PDF? Madness.
I've noticed something odd; if I'm a Fighter 18, and then take 2 levels Spellshape Champion, and have the Natural Balance circle, my spell shape attack uses my Spellshaper Level (11) in place of my BAB (20).
Was this downgrade intended?
Having found this homebrew through The-Mage-King's looking for game thread I am deeply impressed at the level of sophistication found in it.
The amount of circles and classes for a fledgling homebrew magic-system is enormous and they all look very interesting nd seem to have their own niche.
I have to ask a question though since it came up when I made my spellshape champion.
The stipulation that the move-action meditation does not recover formulae used within the last 2 rounds seems, combined with the low number of prepared formulae for the class, greatly reduce his ability to recover in lower levels unless he only has one type of formula (either major or minor). With a mixed 4 prepared formulae, the champion would use all four within 2 rounds then have only normal actions for a round before being able to use the move action to only recover 2 formulae (as the other two are now still in the 2 round interval). As such, the champion can never recover ALL his formulae with one action unless he allows for 2 rounds of non-use between expending his last and recovering.
Compare this to the elemental adept who can recover ALL his formulae with a swift action, has an elemental companion, gets to ignore resistance and half immunities, gets immunity to poison, gets cha to damage, gets turning (with an extra option for more blasting), can get flight (if using air) and harder to resist formulae.
The Champion gets an increase in damage in the beginning (melee damage instead of the d6s) but basically has to go two handed to really get good use out of it later on (i know you can optimize melee damage to great heights, but I am talking about non-optimized use of the class). He still has to overcome SR if he channels the spellblasts, luckily this is made easier later on. I guess the "You otherwise attack with your weapon as normal" line means that if he fails to overcome SR he still gets to use standard damage, so thats at least something. Retaliatory shaping is circumstantial and further eats into the two round recovery delay. Other than that he gets some alleviation for heavier armor and a lot of stuff that makes people want to hit him, but very little direct defensive abilities.
He feels like a better aggro-drawer than the Crusader but without the delay damage option. Unoptimized I think he would die very quickly.
I haven't yet looked at the other classes much, but to me there seems to be quite a bit of distance between the usefulness of the Elemental Adept and the spellshape champion.
...wow, that's silly. Why did I do that? Upcoming one-word change to the physical spellshape attacks: "you may use your shaper level in place of your base attack bonus on attack rolls with..." That should do it--since "may" does not mean "must," you can use whichever is more advantageous.Quote:
Originally Posted by NineThePuma
Yeah, so, the spellshape champion's recovery mechanic. I originally wanted to avoid letting you spam stuff, so I didn't want you to recover things shaped earlier in the round or in the previous round. Through late-nights, the current phrasing emerged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Re'ozul
However, the spellshape champion doesn't really get enough prepared formulae for that to be viable. At the same time that I make the above change to the physical spellshape attacks, I'm going to just let the spellshape champion's recovery mechanic recover all of your formulae. No restrictions. Sure, it makes the champion more spammable, but it's not like champions are the most powerful by any means.
Yeah, of the first four classes, the spellshape champion is pretty much the outlier. It wasn't one of the originals, and I wasn't entirely sure where to go with it. I think you're right--I'm going to have to add something more defensive. Any ideas? I don't have a lot of experience with melee characters. One possibility would be to replace Spellshaping Prowess with a variant of the crusader's damage pool that, instead of giving bonuses to attack and damage rolls, gives an untyped bonus to AC and spell penetration checks. Using one's pain as a means of focusing, as it were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Re'ozul
The current issue with damage is one that can easily be overcome with a spellheart weapon, since the champion can just fully manifest his channeled spellshape attack. Admittedly, that isn't part of Codex I.
---
In other minor changes, I think that I'm going to allow the Extra Prepared Formula feat to be taken multiple times, with the caveat that you cannot take the feat if it would increase your Formulae Prepared to a number greater than your Formulae Known. This has two purposes:
- If you really want to spend feat slots on being able to do more at once, rather than improving things with metashaping, I really see no reason to stop you.
- It has been mentioned that the Idiosyncratic Shaper alternative class feature might be more worth a feat sacrifice, rather than giving up a prepared formula. This change would essentially let you take Extra Prepared Formula an additional time as a feat tax for the class feature.
For similar reasons, Formula Study will lose the "three times only" cap. You only get seven feats--eight, if you're human--and I can't think of any situation in which getting seven more formulae known would suddenly break everything.
Update: Pretty much all of this has been done now, with the exception of adding a defensive mechanic to the spellshape champion--I still haven't settled on one. PDF hasn't been updated yet, and it probably won't be until I can think of that mechanic. No reason to re-upload it twice.
Yeah, Spellheart weapons are good if you are using a non-two-handed character. Especially a TWF oriented Dex-heavy character is very good with it. (Daggers that do 5d6). For two-handed characters they do relatively little.
A Greatsword user with 22 Str gets 2d6+9 weapon wise and 5d6 by Spellheart. Thats about the same average damage.
I like the channeling variant, especially as I want to use unseen impetus and its a nice way to circumvent the fact that the normal blast only uses d4s.
All righty, I basically stole the crusader mechanic and gave it to the spellshape champion. For every 5 points in the delayed damage pool, she gets a +1 bonus to her shaper level and a +2 bonus to her AC. Caps at +6 and +12, respectively.
PDF update to come.
Edit: PDF update came. PDFs added to the first post.
thank you very much for the PDF for the second Codice, much appreciated.
I had a question however. Or more a clarification.
In the sections for the prepared Formulae, i notice there is no wording that disallows preparing the same Formulae multiple times.
I like this alot, I am just verifying that it was your intent. :smallwink:
Like a maneuver, a given formula can be prepared only once at a time.
This may be a problem, as if you take the Spellshape Paragon ACF for the Spellshape Champion, at 2nd level, you will have 4 formulas known, but most if not all circles only have 3 1st level formulas. What happens then?
Having read further into the system (due to changing around the circles on my spellshape champion) I have come upon 2 more question I am in need of asking you.
1. Formulae are considered SLAs and as such provoke AoOs. Does this also apply to a spellshape champion who WILL be in melee most of the time, making it necessary to pump concentration a lot?
2. There are quite a few (very cool) Area of Effect formulas. Since they only ever specify creatures (or at least the ones I remember) do they also affect allies? Furthermore, if a spellshape champion were to use them, would he also be included in the effect? (Since he would most likely be in melee he is always in the area)
First off, sorry for the delayed responses, but I spent all day at Disneyland with my girlfriend.
What happens then is that I stop being an idiot and fix that. Spellshape Paragon will now note that you do not gain a new formula known at 2nd level--though you will instead gain two new formulae known at 3rd.Quote:
Originally Posted by radmelon
Spellshape Channeling specifically notes that shaping a formula in that fashion does not provoke attacks of opportunity. So, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Re'ozul
They would also affect allies, yes. Just as similar spells would. You're right, though, that's kind of a "Screw you" to the champion. Looks like they'll be getting the ability to ignore the negative effects of their own formulae. It will probably be made into a part of Spellshape Channeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Re'ozul
I'll get those changes typed up and formalized as soon as I can, but my girlfriend is visiting me for a week, so we'll see what time I have lying around.
Update: I have the changes online now--incidentally, I extended the "immune to harmful effects" dohickey to all melee-based spellshapers--and will probably get an updated PDF up tomorrow or the next day.
Update to the Update: Updated PDFs have been posted.
I've been toying with the Dragonheart Adept (I like dragons, so sue me), and I was curious; do you have any plans to open the Totem Dragon to Gem Dragons?
Hey, no worries. I like dragons a ridiculous amount, too--as I've said before, the dragonheart adept is a re-imagining of my first homebrew. The entire reason I started homebrewing in the first place was that dragonfire adept and dragon shaman both left me feeling unfulfilled.
In terms of the question of gem dragon support...no, I'm not intending to move in that direction. For multiple reasons:
- Gem dragons are specifically noted as being psionic in nature. While spellshaping is not Vancian casting, the flavor is intended to be sorcerous in nature.
- I don't like gem dragons. For whatever reason, they just...bother me. This might have something to do with the fact that I spent my childhood reading the Dragonlance books, which has basically shaped my view of D&D dragons.
- If I do gem dragons, I open a whole can of worms: the endless dragon family tree. Why not do everything in the Draconomicon? Well, I don't have an analogue for all of the breath weapons, for one thing. For another, some dragons would actually require more than one circle, meaning that you'd lose out on choices.
As always, though, I won't say that I'll never open up more totem dragon options. After all, I originally only intended to write seven circles.
On an entirely unrelated note, I've finished writing the mechanics and rules text for a new spellshaper/martial adept class. It's based on fighting with a light weapon in one hand and magic in the other, alternating between striking with your weapon and blasting with a spellshape attack. It also gets some basic magic niceness, such as prestidigitation at will and the ability to turn and counter spells. Unfortunately, I've run into a wall of writer's block with the name and fluff. So, expect that at some point in the next few days.
Hey If you send me a PM when it's out (or beforehand :smallbiggrin:) I'll tell you what I think. I'll admit, I'm currently liking the Anchorite and it's buffing capabilities! :smallsmile:
I've been test running a DHA, and they make AMAZING supports. Ignoring the breath weapon for now, they can fill in as a secondary melee with a long spear, using a claw to threaten adjacent. Theres an Invocation Tax (in the form of Endure Exposure, cause otherwise you're going to be blasting allies) but you can actually afford to grab, say, Gold Dragon as your Totem, pick up Brilliant Dawn, and focus your maneuvers on a secondary White Raven or Devoted Spirit. You're focusing on buffs and support; it might be worth grabbing Nature's Balance instead of Brilliant Dawn, cause that has better heals and buffs, IMO, but Brilliant Dawn fits flavor nicely. Then dump a feat to get the Nature's Balance aura for infinite healing and spend an invocation on Beguiling Influence. Pseudo-free +10 to intimidate/diplomacy/bluff on a Cha focused class? Yes please!
Unless I misremember, you can feint as a standard action to flatfoot someone against everything, and so you sit there demoralizing or feinting while initiating maneuvers and formula, and then go "BOOM, DAMAGE!" with your breath, which you overpowered the crap out of with Metabreath feats. You just need to focus on Swift Action maneuvers and formula. It's quite nice.
I...actually had never thought about the dragonheart adept playing a support role. Huh.
The idea behind the class--in case it wasn't obvious, which it probably totally is--revolves around you becoming a dragon and doing dragon-y things. So, attacking things with natural weapons, blasting with your breath weapon, and having some generic magical goodness.
While I'm fairly confident that such a build is still fairly reasonable, I hadn't expected such a strong support element to be feasible. I'm pretty okay with it, though. The sly, manipulative wyrm is also a standard dragon type.
If I ever had the chance to play a dragonheart adept, I had assumed that I would have rolled a damage-heavy tank, designed to take hits and dragon the hell out of everything. Now, I find myself really hoping for a gestalt game in which I could run a magic-blooded dragonborn spellscale dragonheart adept (support build) // bard (with dragonfire inspiration). Possibly using my bard rewrite, for added buffing and self-aggrandizement. It would be the buffiest thing since vampire slaying and the dragoniest thing since Smaug.
I think that the issue you've got is that your MAD is Strength/Charisma/Constitution and a lack of Martial Weapon Proficiency: Natural Weapons aren't sickeningly awesome unless you've got some sort of damage boost, and is pretty feat intensive if you wanna focus on them. You probably want Improved Rapidstrike for more attacks, INA for more damage, and I'm sure those are going to cut into your MetaBreath; especially since, assuming you're picking those up, you need a decent Con to pick them up.
Light armor also adds a problem, cause you're expected to have a good Dex as well, for AC; Scales helps this a lot, but that only pops off at level 4. You end up with something similar to the Monk's issues in terms of MAD. On the other hand, if you don't focus on melee your Dex and Strength can suffer slightly. Con + Cha covering your breath and formula. Use less direct maneuvers too.
My only real disappointment is that there's no way (that I can spot) to emulate the Discorporating Breath Of Bahamut. I want my disintegration breath!