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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
With a box
1. I misspelled 'weird'
Figured that. I was being facetious because...
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2. English is not my native language
...as we say elsewhere, where we post in odd dialects a lot:
"We spell mostly phonetically here; it helps if you read it out loud (or at least pronounce to yourself)."
Sort of like writing "weard" for "weird" because it's logical to think it's spelled that way.
Also, remember that it's more or less supposed to represent English spoken with an an [archaic] Low German accent, so think of all the really bad Hollywood "accents" you've seen. Why Jägers in Transylvania would be speaking English with a bad German accent I don't know, but...
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3. Translater in your link is dose not support jager to english :(
Well drat. I'm sure I've seen one somewhere that does, but I took the first Google hit.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
My personal theory on the Jaeger's voices isn't that their accent is specifically a result of the process, it's just how people used to talk. Considering where the comic is set, most of the characters are probably speaking German or something similar, The Jager's "German" accents are because their pronunciation is a few centuries out of date.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
Signs of true intelligence and a will to use it from Bang, it suits her. I am unclear on why she would start pounding on Gil after this explanation though. Dislike of mind control or not you'd think she'd be in favor of Klause pulling the strings on Gil since she doesn't like or trust Agatha either. But line, "and you let him" shows she simply doesn't believe Gil would have agreed to such a thing and I think she's right.
Now I'll bet she's trying to beat Klause to the forefront to have a word with him. We've seen him come out before here where Gil says, "and my son is still too much of a fool to see it." (how did Bang miss that?).
We might be in for an Bang vs. Gil vs. Vole vs. Higgs dustup which would be epic, though we could just come back from the next train segment to the smoking remains of Gil's lab and whoever is still standing.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
Zazu Yen
Signs of true intelligence and a will to use it from Bang, it suits her. I am unclear on why she would start pounding on Gil after this explanation though. Dislike of mind control or not you'd think she'd be in favor of Klause pulling the strings on Gil since she doesn't like or trust Agatha either. But line, "and you
let him" shows she simply doesn't believe Gil would have agreed to such a thing and I think she's right.
Now I'll bet she's trying to beat Klause to the forefront to have a word with him. We've seen him come out before
here where Gil says, "and my
son is still too much of a fool to see it." (how did Bang miss that?).
We might be in for an Bang vs. Gil vs. Vole vs. Higgs dustup which would be epic, though we could just come back from the next train segment to the smoking remains of Gil's lab and whoever is still standing.
I think "and you let him" isn't a sign of disbelief, but of disappointment. Gil just committed probably the biggest taboo in Bang's book (which is probably more of a leaflet, honestly): he gave up his freedom. And in the worst way possible, too, not even managing to maintain freedom within the space between his ears.
Bang is many things, but one thing she consistently is is herself. She works well in the Empire because Klaus had a talent for letting monsters be themselves, but be themselves in service to the Empire instead of at the cost of it. She happily and unabashedly mentions to Klaus at one point that she knows she hadn't been wasped because she can (and does) disobey orders whenever she feels like it, but he puts her in a position where she's able to find her own happy medium between obedience and independence.
Gil sacrificed all freedom, all independence, and I don't think it matters a whit to Bang why he did it. That's just something you don't do. You just don't.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
Bang would make an Excellent Jager. She's got the skills, the love of violence, the deep loyalty, the outraged response to the idea of mind control, and a Hat.
As for why she's punching Gil, a combination of "HOW COULD YOU LET HIM DO THAT" and "THIS IS THE CLOSEST I CAN GET TO PUNCHING KLAUS RIGHT NOW!" would be my guess.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
Zazu Yen
We've seen him come out before
here where Gil says, "and my
son is still too much of a fool to see it." (how did Bang miss that?).
How did Bang miss that? Easy. She's wasn't looking for that evidence at the time and chalked it up to "Gil saying something stupid".
I figure that's why the Foglios has her Bang say those almost exact words a few times in the space of two updates.
It did make her suspicious though, as she said that Gil had been acting weirdly ever since Agatha resurfaced.
I know there are a lot of people complaining about this over at the LJ (and probably other places), but the above answer is the solution, IMO (and if anyone from there is lurking here and a member in said places, feel free to pass these thoughts [including the ones below] along :smalltongue:)
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There's another angle to all of this. I think we might be letting the medium get in the way here. From Bang's perspective, Gil made a strange comment that didn't make much sense in a tense situation, and then moved on to something else (presumably - we didn't get to see the next scene).
From OUR perspective, Gil made a thunderous pronouncement that we could see over and over again as we reread the page over and over again, looking for more clues. Worse, it was the last 'real' update for months, so it being the last thing Gil said was kept fresh in our minds.
But for Bang? Something, obviously, immediately happened next as the 'camera' panned it away. And I doubt Gil/Klaus went on to say "My Son, Gilgamesh, BTW, is a love sick puppy. I think Gil is stupid stupid stupid. Bang, are you paying attention? I just said my son, who I don't have, is stupid. Please do keep up." :smallwink:
Sure, we knew the significance of the comment almost immediately (and even then, there was debate over just what it meant as it was hashed out on a prior discussion thread). But Bang? It would be one of those, "What the hell did he mean by that? Maybe something is wrong with my boss." She didn't confront him immediately for various reasons. Plus, she wanted to see if it was just Gil being 'stupid' (where being stupid = acting silly, sparky, and/or deranged) or if it was more serious.
Thus she gathered evidence/observed things to support her suspicious and acted when she felt that something was indeed up and she wanted answers. Plus, you know, perfect situation to act.
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All of this plus do we really know that Bang knows about the Other being able to 'imprint' itself on others? If she doesn't know about that possibility, she might not immediately leap to a "Wow! Gil's possessed, just like Agatha is" deduction. Even in the latest update, she puts it as 'mind control you', not 'possess you'.
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All that being said, the Foglios probably could have handled this better by inserting (possibly clunky) dialogue like, "When you rambled on about having a son, I just thought it was you being stupid again. But ever since then you've been doing more and more stupid stuff that doesn't add up."
Which, to be fair, the Foglios sort of did. They just didn't spell it out. Plusses and minuses to that strategy. Probably a net minus here, given the conversations it has spawned. But nothing that can't be reasoned out, IMO.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
Calemyr
I think "and you let him" isn't a sign of disbelief, but of disappointment. Gil just committed probably the biggest taboo in Bang's book (which is probably more of a leaflet, honestly): he gave up his freedom. And in the worst way possible, too, not even managing to maintain freedom within the space between his ears.
I think Gil probably didn't *really* understand what was going to happen.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
HandofShadows
I think Gil probably didn't *really* understand what was going to happen.
Oh, he probably did to some degree.
It think it might more be a situation where he had little choice. He was boxed in and trapped in a lab. Even if he broke out, then what? He couldn't even stage a coup against his father (presuming he'd even want to) since half the 'court' that Klaus keeps thinks Gil has been wasped. Maybe he could have escaped Castle Wulfenbach somehow, but then what? He was in a bad situation. He might not have been in checkmate, but it was pretty darn close.
Beyond that, Gil, in his arrogance, might have thought he could eventually work around his father's control. Push around the edges. Use this as a gambit to allow himself more movement on the board and 'help' where he could. Gil IS very self-assured after all. Klaus might have even counted on that self-assurance for Gil to accept the deal.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
Zazu Yen
I am unclear on why she would start pounding on Gil after this explanation though.
It's her default response.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
Also, both Gil AND Klaus lied to her and kept her in the dark. Two birds with one punch. :smalltongue:
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
And she just plain enjoys hurting people.
She's the Belkar of Girl Genius.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
Porthos
Beyond that, Gil, in his arrogance, might have thought he could eventually work around his father's control. Push around the edges. Use this as a gambit to allow himself more movement on the board and 'help' where he could. Gil IS very self-assured after all. Klaus might have even counted on that self-assurance for Gil to accept the deal.
At that point he had his very own friendly expert on Lu-style mind control down in Mechanicsburg, and he likely didn't expect Klaus to freeze the whole town or Tarvek to be poison-knifed.
Anyway, with how much dissatisfaction we see from his staff, his failure to get Agatha, his problems with extracting Vole and now even Bang blaming him for things he had not much choice, but to let happen, I think this is the 'Break-Gil-until-he-cries'-arc. Consequently we won't get the guy who possibly could solve his possession problems, and might just make look Tweedle incompetent, when it comes to seizing the KoJ, back. Higgs will possibly follow the castle's order too and leave him.
I suspect he will accidentally kill Tarvek in an attempt to rescue him, which would cost him the rest of his self-confidence, and give him some additional angst. Friendless, disheartened and distrusted, he will then lose the rest of his empire until our heroine returns and restores hope.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
Other reasons why Gil might have agreed:
He has a very pressing reason to want to study this process. Allowing his father to do it to him so he can experience it first-hand (and then explore it with someone who is at least not totally antagonistic to him) gives him a better chance of curing Agatha from the same situation.
He might actually believe he was wasped. He seemed uncertain at the time.
He might recognize his father's situation (he knows his father was wasped); under such dire circumstances, allying with his father like this may have been his only option, especially realizing that it would let at least a version of his father out of Lucrezia's control.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
Aquillion
Other reasons why Gil might have agreed:
The main reason Gil agreed was made clear ages ago back in the Siege arc - Either Gil submits to Klaus's plan, or Mechanicsburg is reduced to rubble. This is confirmed a short time later, when Gil has switched over from helping Agatha to trying to convince her she's doomed and needs to surrender to Klaus. (and then attempting abduction by force when she doesn't agree to surrender). And literally one strip after Gil gets back on Castle Wulfenbach, Klaus says Gil has been "rendered harmless" and immediately preps for his airdrop.
Now, granted, at the time we didn't know exactly what he was agreeing to, but its pretty clear now. Klaus used the leverage of destroying Agatha to get a copy of himself installed willingly in Gil, and then shot himself into the time field in order to prevent Lucrezia from having control over the empire.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
Good point Ailurus. If Klaus could get in with the Magic Eightball that screws with time, he could have sent in something that would have wiped the city off the map for good.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
By the same token, he could have sent said destructive item in while being in the city and thus killing himself, which seems a far more robust solution to keeping him away from the Empire than the whole time bubble thing. Also note that Gil seems to be rather anxious to rescue his father from the time bubble, which would seem to be the opposite of what the Klaus gestalt in his head wants if Ailurus' theory is correct.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
factotum
By the same token, he could have sent said destructive item in while being in the city and thus killing himself, which seems a far more robust solution to keeping him away from the Empire than the whole time bubble thing. Also note that Gil seems to be rather anxious to rescue his father from the time bubble, which would seem to be the opposite of what the Klaus gestalt in his head wants if Ailurus' theory is correct.
Klaus was probably under standing orders to not remove himself from control of the empire, so the Other wouldn't lose control. Clank girl probably understood the story.
So, he puts a copy of himself in Gil so he still has empire control, locks his actual body into the timefield, and then between Gil and Klaus expounded on the anti-wasp formula to remove a wasp. So when they do eventually pull Klaus' body out of the time freeze, they remove the wasp from the body, transfer Klaus' additional memories back to the main head, and then drops from Gil.
Now granted, part three and four of the above plan hasn't happened yet so I expect about six years worth of comics to get to that point.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
I personally think that spark itself is a kind of mind control. And this assume makes the locket's function clear: denial of mind effect.
And possible reason for doing it :
Somebody found a intelligence enhancer, but it makes subject's mind unstable as a side effect.
War is considered bring technologycal advence, but they don't want to hurt themselves. So, they make war at somewhere else.
And inject sparks to people there, it will excel the tech advence and easily make war due to unstable mind.
And the 'someone' take techs from them and keep themself safe and uneffected.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
With a box
I personally think that spark itself is a kind of mind control. And this assume makes the locket's function clear: denial of mind effect.
And possible reason for doing it :
Somebody found a intelligence enhancer, but it makes subject's mind unstable as a side effect.
War is considered bring technologycal advence, but they don't want to hurt themselves. So, they make war at somewhere else.
And inject sparks to people there, it will excel the tech advence and easily make war due to unstable mind.
And the 'someone' take techs from them and keep themself safe and uneffected.
That wouldn't explain how the Spark seems to be hereditary in many cases, though (never mind the fact that Sparks with the capability to make war technologies of any great use would likely be powerful enough to kill/enslave/capture and mutate any non-Spark who tried to take their technology away from them). :smallconfused:
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
With a box
I personally think that spark itself is a kind of mind control. And this assume makes the locket's function clear: denial of mind effect.
And possible reason for doing it :
Somebody found a intelligence enhancer, but it makes subject's mind unstable as a side effect.
War is considered bring technologycal advence, but they don't want to hurt themselves. So, they make war at somewhere else.
And inject sparks to people there, it will excel the tech advence and easily make war due to unstable mind.
And the 'someone' take techs from them and keep themself safe and uneffected.
I doubt it. I think that Klaus changed the locket's function from "suppress the Spark" to "suppress the Other", since he thought Agatha was the Other. It just so happened that by the time she put it on, she actually was the Other; but since it was possession, it didn't work the way Klaus expected.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
Ailurus
Now, granted, at the time we didn't know exactly what he was agreeing to, but its pretty clear now. Klaus used the leverage of destroying Agatha to get a copy of himself installed willingly in Gil, and then shot himself into the time field in order to prevent Lucrezia from having control over the empire.
Agreed. He wanted to put himself beyond Lucrezia's reach. This way he gets to have his cake and eat it too.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
Emperordaniel
That wouldn't explain how the Spark seems to be hereditary in many cases, though
vertical transmission can explain why lt looks like hereditary but not strictly hereditary.
and I thought at first it connected to their supercomputer in wireless way to get basic knowledge.
and I get this idea when I wondered where they get those knowledge at breakthrough. they didn't learn that, did they?
yes, I've gone too far and it will need 10years worth of comic even if it is true:smallbiggrin:
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
With a box
I wondered where they get those knowledge at breakthrough. they didn't learn that, did they?
Yes, they do, if they're lucky enough to survive their first experiments. Remember what the Countess said: "Those of us who are, aren't necessarily any good at it." And Master Paine chipped in with "What about someone really brilliant, but born into a poor village? Without education, what can they do? Agatha had a good eduction before she was allowed to "break through" with her first working clank, and she still needed practice.
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I think a lot of people are mireading Klaus, believing him to be the "Benelolent Tryant" interested only in keeping the "Pax Wulfenbach." To be honest, he probably believes that himself and may even started out that way. But the historian once observed "Power tends to curruot, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lately, he's become more concerned with maintaining his personal control at any cost, then the cost itself. Why do you think he's performing experiments on "what causes the spark?" He's as obessed with eradicating it as Othar, but unlike the latter, he doesn't intend to destroy himsef, just anyone who could challenge him. ANYONE - "the Other" is just his biggest bogeyman.
Consider. What was Klaus very first reaction on seeing Punch and Judy, even before learning Agatha was the daughter of Lucrezia Mongfish? Not "Hello old comrades in arms. Have you come to help me fight the slaver wasps?" but "Contain them!"
And what did he tell the students, who had spent more time with her then he himself had? "You rally to her side. Even in defience of [i]ME[/]!" He doesn't care if she's innocent, much less Good or Evil. He only cares that he might not be able to command her. He's paranoid, has been ever since he came home with "all of that [that he got from the Boys] burned out of him" and it's gotten worse.
Which brings me to a Stupid Wildass Epleptic Tree notion I've been pondering for sometime. Which doesn't involve Pinky.
We still don't know exactly what happened at the Castle the night "the Other" attacked and spirited Lucrezia away, the event that started the Boys vs the Other campaign in the first place. Popular theory of course is that "the Other" was Lucrezia, but why would she blow up her own base and disappear before she was ready? Nope that makes as much sense as bogus, because Lu was the one who built the summoning engine even before Agath was born, and turned it and "the Holy Child" over to the Geisters for safe keeping.
But if he believes it's possible to go back in time, and has been working on altering the flow of time (as we know he has) what's to say that Future!Klaus wouldn't try it himself. Attack the Castle (while the Boys are away) aduct his arch nemesis, and then uses "the Other's" technology (which he understands better then anyone else, and admits is "like Lucrezia's, but more advanced") to prevent the Boys from interfering. Worst case, he ends up setting the unsuspecting Younger!Klaus to build the Empire in the first place.
One other detail to remember. Barry came back and left young Agatha and her locket under the eye not of Klaus, but another old friend and mentor Dr. Beetle. Klaus read his notes, and says he "knows why" Beetle was helping hide her, but that he "doesn't understand" some of what he wrote.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
ChowGuy
Yes, they do, if they're lucky enough to survive their first experiments.
I asked about how they get knowledge required for make their "first experiment".
After breakthought is irrelevant
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
ChowGuy
One other detail to remember.
Barry came back and left young Agatha and her locket under the eye not of Klaus, but another old friend and mentor Dr. Beetle. Klaus read his notes, and says he "knows why" Beetle was helping hide her, but that he "doesn't understand" some of what he wrote.
The Clays almost certainly thought that Klaus was actually The Other, not Lucrezia (And they told Beetle that). They might have gotten the info from Lucrezia herself. Setting up Klaus as the Other was a perfect bit of misdirection on her part. Klaus was off in Skiflander and she didn't think he could come back. A perfect patsy.
As for Klaus being a "Benelolent Tryant", he is. And he HATES the job. The reason he grasps so much to power is he doesn't trust anyone else with it, not because he likes it. Many sparks are meglomaniacs who go and start wars, turn superweapons on armies or create monsters (even by accident). They are people NOT to be trusted to hold a seat on an empty bus, much less with any real power.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
A new side story? :(
Is that in canon?
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
HandofShadows
The Clays almost certainly thought that Klaus was actually The Other, not Lucrezia (And they told Beetle that). They might have gotten the info from Lucrezia herself. Setting up Klaus as the Other was a perfect bit of misdirection on her part. Klaus was off in Skiflander and she didn't think he could come back. A perfect patsy.
Barry came back, with Agatha, who had not been born when the attack occurred and Lucrezia disappeared. Remember, that's why the Boys hied off the next day, so she couldn't have "told" them anything until they found her. If they found her. Last anyone we know of saw of her were the Priestesses she left Agatha with because "the gods were at war." Being as she was (to them) one of the gods herself, one has to ask who was at war with her that she was that worried about.
And it wasn't [Young] Klaus because as you point out, she had banished him to Skifander, and her [summoned] mind copy was later astonished to hear he'd made it back. That by the way happened before she and Bill were married, and presumably before Klaus Barry came along, which was still a year before the attack.
And while we're at it, where did Agatha come from, if even the Seneschal wasn't expecting another heir. Lucretia was very much no longer in "her usual delightful form" when she showed up at priestesses temple, wherever that is.
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As for Klaus being a "Benelolent Tryant", he is.
And he HATES the job. The reason he grasps so much to power is he doesn't trust anyone else with it, not because he likes it. Many sparks are meglomaniacs who go and start wars, turn superweapons on armies or create monsters (even by accident). They are people NOT to be trusted to hold a seat on an empty bus, much less with any real power.
So, guilty unless proven innocent, and probably even then because you might do something later? Because that's the way Klaus "benevolence" works. "No second chances"? Heck, no first chances.
But I agree, as I said, he probably thinks he's benevolent and "hates his job" but so did Consul Bonaparte. You know, the man who pretty much single handedly saved the French Republic, restored order, and gave Europe it's first code of written law since Rome. Until he decided to crown himself Emperor, and probably even then. Yeah, that Bonaparte. To borrow a phrase from Petruchio, "the Baron doth protest too much, methinks."
ETA: Forgot to add earlier: If Lucrezia was "the Other" that the Boys were running around fighting all that time, why did the attacks stop, and they (and she) suddenly disappear at the same time. If she had won "the war" why didn't she stay around and gloat. If she had lost, Bill (at least) would likely have given her a "second chance" and she'd have come back and whined while she plotted her next move. Either way sounds more like the Lucrezia we've seen glimpses of then just vanishing. Whatever befell them, it happened to all of them, and that's what I think Judy meant when she says "Barry came back."
Mind you, that was still before Young!Klaus' return with Gil. But he's not the Klaus I'm taking about. The Klaus I'm talking about would be Future!Klaus, gone back in time. And since he's a Spark and might still do it, by your own standards we should presume him guilty.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
Interesting art style Cheyenne's got when working on his own...
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
For SCIENCE! Of COURSE!!
I REALLY like the art!
It occurs to me that, in the GG universe, when someone says they'll have your head if you're dead, they may not be speaking metaphorically. O.O
Tarsus Hall? Really?
Theodessa DuMedd? Theo's got a sister? He's had a sex change? This is his clone with the the 'Y' chromosome changed to 'X'?
And Elmira Winters appears to have done what mortals SHOULD NOT have done, and pulled one of Agatha's ancestors to the present day. People are going to lose their hats.
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Re: Girl Genius XVII: And Then He Had Pie
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Originally Posted by
eee
Theodessa DuMedd? Theo's got a sister? He's had a sex change? This is his clone with the the 'Y' chromosome changed to 'X'?
Or a daughter. This DuMedd is a student at TPU. The Lady Heterodyne has been called away to France on urgent business, but no-one there seems to think that's odd, or that she's in hiding, so probably about as current/canon as any of the previous Girl Genius mini-adventures.