[PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
hi all,
as the title says we have a house rule about melee and ranged combat in that if you make a standard actions you may have all your attacks minus the lowest one i.e this house rule does nothing for you till you hit lvl 11 and are at +11/+6/+1 so you may take a full attack action and have all 3 attack or you may move and have the +11/+6 attacks.
we did this because we all felt that the classes that rely on basic attacks to deal a bulk of thier damage were much much weaker in the mid to high lvls compared to say casters because of the "you may only make one attack as a standard action" thingy.
hope i wrote this up correctly
please feel free to chuck in your honest opinions
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sariss_eldariss
hi all,
as the title says we have a house rule about melee and ranged combat in that if you make a standard actions you may have all your attacks minus the lowest one i.e this house rule does nothing for you till you hit lvl 11 and are at +11/+6/+1 so you may take a full attack action and have all 3 attack or you may move and have the +11/+6 attacks.
we did this because we all felt that the classes that rely on basic attacks to deal a bulk of thier damage were much much weaker in the mid to high lvls compared to say casters because of the "you may only make one attack as a standard action" thingy.
hope i wrote this up correctly
please feel free to chuck in your honest opinions
I must say, this is a very neat house rule. It eases the whole action economy issue for combat-oriented characters.
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
It does not fix the problem - the only way to do that is by fixing the broken spell system, but it does shrink the gap, if only by a little bit.
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BladeofOblivion
It does not fix the problem - the only way to do that is by fixing the broken spell system, but it does shrink the gap, if only by a little bit.
I said ease for a reason. It doesn't fix the issue, it' makes it smaller. It also seems more realistic.
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
you guys both hit the nail on the head, it is a role playing game and its fun to be a cleric or wizard or fighter alter ego for a few hours a week however most experianced players always try get the most out of the system and its kinda sad that its seriously unbalanced at mid to high lvls.
the "house rule" is one way we try to shorted the gap the other is ofc adding feats that help improve the combat capabilities of er...shall we call em physical combat classes without weakening the casters...and its a struggle. thankfully we are blessed with a very reasonable playing group so if it dont work well we scrap it and try again.
for example
Strength of Arms.
Prequisite: Base Attack bonus +5, Str 13 or Dex 13
Benefit: When wielding a 2 handed weapon you may add twice your strength modifier to your damage as opposed to 1 and a half times. When wielding 2 weapons at the same time your off hand weapon recieves your full strength bonus to your damage as opposed to half. You may use your bonus fighter feat to take this feat.
Note: This feat does not in any way change the way power attack and related abilities effect your character.
Heavy Armour Specialisation.
Prerequisite: Ability to use heavy armour
Benefit: Heavy armour no longer limits your movement ability, you may move your full speed while wearing heavy armour, including the ability to sprint. Fighters may use thier fighter feats to take this one.
Note: Little know fact that Henry the 8th was known for the ability to vault onto his horse while wearing his full ceremonial plate...proof once again that well made plate mail need not be exceedingly cumbersome.:smallyuk:
these are 2 of the house feats we have so sorta balance the caster vs physical damage at mid to high lvls, like i say its always a work in progress any hints/and or tips can be very very useful
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
Those feats really do nothing to make martial chracters remotely stack up to wizards.
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sariss_eldariss
you guys both hit the nail on the head, it is a role playing game and its fun to be a cleric or wizard or fighter alter ego for a few hours a week however most experianced players always try get the most out of the system and its kinda sad that its seriously unbalanced at mid to high lvls.
the "house rule" is one way we try to shorted the gap the other is ofc adding feats that help improve the combat capabilities of er...shall we call em physical combat classes without weakening the casters...and its a struggle. thankfully we are blessed with a very reasonable playing group so if it dont work well we scrap it and try again.
for example
Strength of Arms.
Prequisite: Base Attack bonus +5, Str 13 or Dex 13
Benefit: When wielding a 2 handed weapon you may add twice your strength modifier to your damage as opposed to 1 and a half times. When wielding 2 weapons at the same time your off hand weapon recieves your full strength bonus to your damage as opposed to half. You may use your bonus fighter feat to take this feat.
Note: This feat does not in any way change the way power attack and related abilities effect your character.
Heavy Armour Specialisation.
Prerequisite: Ability to use heavy armour
Benefit: Heavy armour no longer limits your movement ability, you may move your full speed while wearing heavy armour, including the ability to sprint. Fighters may use thier fighter feats to take this one.
Note: Little know fact that Henry the 8th was known for the ability to vault onto his horse while wearing his full ceremonial plate...proof once again that well made plate mail need not be exceedingly cumbersome.:smallyuk:
these are 2 of the house feats we have so sorta balance the caster vs physical damage at mid to high lvls, like i say its always a work in progress any hints/and or tips can be very very useful
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Milskidasith
Those feats really do nothing to make martial chracters remotely stack up to wizards.
Well, I could see them making a difference in a low-optimization group, but they don't really do much.
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sariss_eldariss
hi all,
as the title says we have a house rule about melee and ranged combat in that if you make a standard actions you may have all your attacks minus the lowest one i.e this house rule does nothing for you till you hit lvl 11 and are at +11/+6/+1 so you may take a full attack action and have all 3 attack or you may move and have the +11/+6 attacks.
we did this because we all felt that the classes that rely on basic attacks to deal a bulk of thier damage were much much weaker in the mid to high lvls compared to say casters because of the "you may only make one attack as a standard action" thingy.
hope i wrote this up correctly
please feel free to chuck in your honest opinions
I found that by allowing my characters "standard actions" to be more lenient... The fighter may, throw a thunderstone, throw a greasebag, throw a net, or whatever they fancy, then move to the target and still attack. Now their target is at a slight disadvantage, maybe. Also in this spirit of things, +11/+6/+1???Sunder-Armor, Disarm, Attack. They each require an "attack roll" so if you get 3 attacks a round, well there are your three "attacks".
I see that the armor speed reduction is a HUGE asset in melee upgrade at higher levels. Why? Closing the gap. Big Boom wizard is NOT going to be happy when the bat **** crazy, foaming from the mouth fighter, tired of being auto hit with empowered, maximized magic missile each turn for 35 damage, worse if twinned or quickened, comes up and lays the smack down on him. You try to run wizard? attack, you try to cast a spell wizard? attack, you give up wizard? attack.
Still, yes sadly these things alone do not help as much as they should. So we need to really get outside the box as "nerfing" the offending caster classes, well, that'd take a lot more than just assisting our melee friends.
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FlyingWhale
I found that by allowing my characters "standard actions" to be more lenient... The fighter may, throw a thunderstone, throw a greasebag, throw a net, or whatever they fancy, then move to the target and still attack. Now their target is at a slight disadvantage, maybe. Also in this spirit of things, +11/+6/+1???Sunder-Armor, Disarm, Attack. They each require an "attack roll" so if you get 3 attacks a round, well there are your three "attacks".
So... the fighter gets two standard actions and can full attack as a standard action, using various types of attacks? The first is odd, the second has been proposed (and is workable), the third is already something they can do.
Quote:
I see that the armor speed reduction is a HUGE asset in melee upgrade at higher levels. Why? Closing the gap. Big Boom wizard is NOT going to be happy when the bat **** crazy, foaming from the mouth fighter, tired of being auto hit with empowered, maximized magic missile each turn for 35 damage, worse if twinned or quickened, comes up and lays the smack down on him. You try to run wizard? attack, you try to cast a spell wizard? attack, you give up wizard? attack.
Yeah, no, 10 ft/round doesn't counter the wizards mobility advantage, or come even close. Also, if somebody is only hitting 35 per round as a blaster wizard, something is wrong.
Quote:
Still, yes sadly these things alone do not help as much as they should. So we need to really get outside the box as "nerfing" the offending caster classes, well, that'd take a lot more than just assisting our melee friends.
As it has been said in all threads: nerf the spells. Problematically... that's hard to do.
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Milskidasith
So... the fighter gets two standard actions and can full attack as a standard action, using various types of attacks? The first is odd, the second has been proposed (and is workable), the third is already something they can do.
I meant they can divide their attacks as actions, IE throwing daggers at BAB 11/6/1 gives you 3 throw attacks. Take the same number and change the actions, +11 throw thunderstone/dagger/whatever, (attack#1), move base speed, (move action), +6 melee attack.
This allows for the two attacks and movement as suggested earlier, IMHO that doesn't break the Standard Action/Move Action idea.
Also thinking of a few feats***
Quote:
Yeah, no, 10 ft/round doesn't counter the wizards mobility advantage, or come even close. Also, if somebody is only hitting 35 per round as a blaster wizard, something is wrong.
I was kinda thinking really poor optimized spell. I've played with a lot of folks who think its a sure and better thing... Hey, to each his own... even if it's ridiculous:smallsigh:
***Cut The Fabric
Prerequisites Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, At least +1 enhancement bonus on weapon.
Benefit The character may ignore magical force, such as through a Mage Armor spell or Force Wall. This does not harm the wielder or the blade.
Special If the weapon is a slashing weapon, the wielder may attempt to "cut" a section of a Force Wall or similar effect by making an attack roll against the caster level of the effect. d20+level+magical modifier on weapon
OK PEACH the hell out of this one because for the life of me my brain isnt working right...
***Spell Deflection
Prerequisites Dodge, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes.
Benefit The character gains the Evasion ability, if she already has Evasion, she gains Improved Evasion, is she already has Improved Evasion, she gains the ability to reflect the spell back on the caster, using the caster's DC. She may do this by using her attack of opportunity for the round, she may reflect as many spells as she can make attacks of opportunity.
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
One rule I'm working on for attacks, is to simply allow the character to use all it's iterative attacks as a standard attack. Two weapon fighting can be used as well, as per normal rules.
When using a full round action, though, you can make all your attacks at no default iterative penalty. Like, if you have a base attack bonus of +7, your normal routine is +7/+2. If you full attack, you can attack at +7/+7.
When full attacking, penalties from Two Weapon Fighting is reduced in -2 (the minimum penalty for TWF).
It allows higher level characters to use all those attacks that were supposed to be his high level benefit, yet can't use, and/or have so many penalties that you can just not use them at all. And turn them into meat grinders as well.
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
i do agree that the feats represented above do not help much with the higher end balancing, however i find that at low - mid lvls the little extra damage and the little extra mobility are very very useful.
but yes its a serious balance issue and i for one dont want to take the approach of "nerf the casters".
i mean spellcasters do have a certain feel about them that should not be destroyed, by changing it too drastically.
one of my friends believes that the solution lies in powerful higher end feats? or are these classes doomed to be prestiged when they hit the higher end?
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sariss_eldariss
i do agree that the feats represented above do not help much with the higher end balancing, however i find that at low - mid lvls the little extra damage and the little extra mobility are very very useful.
but yes its a serious balance issue and i for one dont want to take the approach of "nerf the casters".
i mean spellcasters do have a certain feel about them that should not be destroyed, by changing it too drastically.
one of my friends believes that the solution lies in powerful higher end feats? or are these classes doomed to be prestiged when they hit the higher end?
You aren't going to fix it with feats. Also, the feats aren't even good at lower levels; a couple extra damage on hit (maybe +5 withhout extreme optimization/templating, +8 with it at low-ish levels), or 10 ft/rnd more movespeed, just isn't worth the price of a feat. Well, the extra damage is actually good for a feat, it just doesn't solve the fighters problem, just increases the numbers.
Re: [PEACH] melee and ranged house rule 3.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Milskidasith
You aren't going to fix it with feats. Also, the feats aren't even good at lower levels; a couple extra damage on hit (maybe +5 withhout extreme optimization/templating, +8 with it at low-ish levels), or 10 ft/rnd more movespeed, just isn't worth the price of a feat. Well, the extra damage is actually good for a feat, it just doesn't solve the fighters problem, just increases the numbers.
One pet project I've been working on allows fighters to inflict status effects with called shots at the cost of a penalty to the attack roll. The effects have save DCs equal to 10 + 1/2 BAB + Str modifier. Examples include targeting the fingers (-10 to ranged attacks) and the lung (20% chance each round of effect after comma, Victim must succeed on will save or lose action.) It doesn't balance Melee and Casters, but at least it allows them to do more than just throw around damage.
