Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
Hi! After thinking about the harpoon idea I had for the beating the dragon thread. I was thinking of designing a character around a similar concept.
The character uses harpoons to lock down its targets. My initial vision shows me a gish like character with a container holding multiple harpoons. He then attaches shrunken items to the ends of the harpoons. In combat he attacks his enemy hopefully sticking him while trans-locating himself to the opposite side of the enemy and sticking him again. It would look like this:
B=Boulder, -=harpoon line, X=blank space, E=Enemy
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
B-------E--------B
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Eventually more lines would be added.
Ideally the length of the rope would force said enemy to not be able to move.
I was thinking of building a gish like character, but I don't know where to start.
I was contemplating bloodstorm blade, but I don't want to rely on whether or not the DM will rule that the harpoons still stick with returning and such. I just want the missiles to be fire-and-forget.
My initial build Idea was something like this:
Wizard 1/Swash 3/ Fighter 2/Abj Champion 5/ ???
It definitely needs help.
What I need:
To accomplish lockdown I'm trying to stick the enemy with more than 1 harpoon every round. Since they can only remove 1 harpoon as a full round.
I also need a way to dimension door ~60ft as a swift action.
Some sort of rope that would be hard to break, possibly multiple types so that I can have different ropes on different harpoons.
Ways to deal more damage on each thrown attack (remember not just 1 big attack). This will ensure the reflex saves are top notch and hard to avoid.
At least shrink item as a spell, and teleporting spells as well.
Problems:
Casters only need to make a DC15 concentration check to cast while ensnared, however it does make them immobile since I think the attached items would count as his "load" and thus couldn't teleport/plane-shift. Any ways to keep them neutralized would help.
I need lots of attacks at decently high damage and I need to move at least once in the first round. I'd like them to be locked on round one. I could then move on to other targets or start adding more lines.
Can I disengage shrink items fast enough while full attacking? I could have a familiar help with this.
Thoughts? Ideas? Solutions?
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
Your major limiter here is the hp of the rope. Anyone who is a primary combatant will be able to kill the rope with a single attack, while any spellcaster should never be hit in the first place.
Your trick will only be effective against unintelligent creatures.
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
That is why I said different rope material would be nice.
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Originally Posted by myself
Some sort of rope that would be hard to break, possibly multiple types so that I can have different ropes on different harpoons.
Adamantine chain, woven angel hair, Asmodius' backhair, or whatever.
As far as not being able to hit spellcasters that is just an appeal to probability. I also don't see that as being a problem of the build in particular, but an assumption of conditions which may or may not be the case.
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Your trick will only be effective against unintelligent creatures.
How so? Is this based on the idea that they can cut the rope? I already mentioned that. Also, if I have more attacks in a round as them or even =attacks I am still locking them down, as they are wasting actions on negating my ropes.
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
nonono, what you want to do is attach the harpoon to a boulder...
...and roll it down a cliff.
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
screw ropes, use chains, much more durable if more expensive
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
Also, replace the boulder with a shrunk object fully drawn catapult.
Hook the chain to the arm and fire it after harpooning the guy.
Bonus points for using a flesh-grinding returning harpoon tipped in sovern glue.
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
Even if the rope is broken, it will cost action economy to make it happen.
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
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Originally Posted by
dascarletm
I also need a way to dimension door ~60ft as a swift action.
Shadow Blink maneuver requires an Initiator Level of 13. Master Shadow Hand Gloves (45000 GP, Tome of Battle) might allow this, but it might require the DM to agree that using these items lets you ignore the IL requirement. Not having any Martial Adept levels also means you won't have a recovery method, and thus Shadow Blink only works once per encounter.
Otherwise... dimension hop power (Complete Psionic) + 10 PP = 60' teleport as a swift action. Requires a manifester level of 11, though.
There's also the Flicker shadow mystery (Tome of Magic), which you can activate as an immediate action, but you'd need a caster level of 24 to get up to 60'.
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Originally Posted by
dascarletm
Some sort of rope that would be hard to break, possibly multiple types so that I can have different ropes on different harpoons.
60' chain made of riverine links (Stormwrack) would be 12 lbs, 2000 GP x 12 = 24000 GP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dascarletm
Ways to deal more damage on each thrown attack (remember not just 1 big attack). This will ensure the reflex saves are top notch and hard to avoid.
Bloodstorm Blade, Thunderous Throw + Power Attack. Unfortunately, Thunderous Throw requires a swift action to activate, which would probably interfere with your swift-action teleports.
Hmm. If Dragon Magazine is on the table, there's a feat called Windup (Dragon #304) that works like Power Attack for thrown weapons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dascarletm
Casters only need to make a DC15 concentration check to cast while ensnared, however it does make them immobile since I think the attached items would count as his "load" and thus couldn't teleport/plane-shift. Any ways to keep them neutralized would help.
Needs more "Fleshgrinding" (Book of Vile Darkness). Although apparently that only works on melee weapons? Really? Bummer. The Phoenix Ash Threat augment crystal (MIC) adds some damage on the next round. Gehennen Morguth-Iron (A&EG) trades a -1 attack/damage penalty for 1/1d4 Dex poison, Fort save DC 12. Harpoon + silence spell might be good for shutting down casters. Gloves + Blister Oil Bomb, maybe?
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darrin
Shadow Blink maneuver requires an Initiator Level of 13. Master Shadow Hand Gloves (45000 GP, Tome of Battle) might allow this, but it might require the DM to agree that using these items lets you ignore the IL requirement. Not having any Martial Adept levels also means you won't have a recovery method, and thus Shadow Blink only works once per encounter.
I suppose a martial adept/caster hybrid could possibly work for that. (though shadowhand is exclusive for swordsages, and I was hoping for larger BaB if possible) swordsage/jadepheonix/abj champ?
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Originally Posted by
Darrin
Otherwise... dimension hop power (Complete Psionic) + 10 PP = 60' teleport as a swift action. Requires a manifester level of 11, though.
is there a psionic Shrink Item?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darrin
60' chain made of riverine links (Stormwrack) would be 12 lbs, 2000 GP x 12 = 24000 GP.
Little pricey, but for 2 of my best harpoons saved for the biggest of bosses it might be worth the investment
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darrin
Bloodstorm Blade, Thunderous Throw + Power Attack. Unfortunately, Thunderous Throw requires a swift action to activate, which would probably interfere with your swift-action teleports.
that would hurt, but after the first two lock the baddie in place i could use that afterwards
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darrin
Hmm. If Dragon Magazine is on the table, there's a feat called Windup (Dragon #304) that works like Power Attack for thrown weapons.
I could probably get that okay'd
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darrin
Needs more "Fleshgrinding" (Book of Vile Darkness). Although apparently that only works on melee weapons? Really? Bummer. The Phoenix Ash Threat augment crystal (MIC) adds some damage on the next round. Gehennen Morguth-Iron (A&EG) trades a -1 attack/damage penalty for 1/1d4 Dex poison, Fort save DC 12. Harpoon + silence spell might be good for shutting down casters. Gloves + Blister Oil Bomb, maybe?
What damage adds to the ref save? all? does elemental? or is it only the base damage?
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
Fleshgrinding harpoons are nice (fleshgrinding is a WSA that deals the weapons damage every round). It only works on melee weapons though so you'll need Bloodstorm Blade.
Power Throw lets you Power Attack with thrown weapons as well, and a feat is much cheaper than a single class feature from a prestige class if you don't want to go BSB.
Also, some posts from other harpoon threads:
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Would Splitting apply? Chuck a harpoon at someone and end up sticking two in them?
Alternately, Returning could be interpreted in an interesting way. Either it pulls the target toward you (Get over here!) or just rips itself out of the target at the end of your turn. Again, doubling your damage but removing the actual good part of harpoons, the debuff effect they have.
Collision is extra-useful on a harpoon, as it raises your initial damage, the DC to avoid getting nailed, AND the secondary damage if you pull it out.
Knockback used to be pretty awesome before the MIC reprint, check into that one. Halving movement as well as knocking your opponent around seems pretty entertaining.
Strangely, I kind of like Illuminating. If you have superior senses (as you should, ranged fighter) you're nailing an opponent with a beacon of light they can't get rid of. Try sneaking around with a glowing harpoon in your chest.
Precise is also a good call. Ranged battles devolve into melees so quickly, and you don't want to have to waste shots due to cover or your foes closing on your allies.
Finally, Ghost Touch. Incorporeal enemies don't come up often, but when they do, wouldn't you like to ram a sharp stick into them that stops them from hiding in walls?
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Oh, cool... never even thought of Master Thrower before. "Two with One Blow": you may take a -4 penalty to hit two adjacent opponents with one attack. With harpoons... *snicker*
I'd almost be tempted to max out Master Thrower, grab Trip Shot, Two with One Blow and Deadeye Shot (increasing the crit multiplier) so you end up with a ranged attack dealing 1d10 + heckofalot, crit 19-20/x3, tripping, pinning enemies together, halving movement, and keeping them on a 30' leash around you. Maybe not Wizard-levels of battlefield control, but that could really wreck someone.
Ooh! And if you wear that crazy evil king armor from BoVD, with the chains for attaching to slaves? The one that forcibly inflicts Shield Other on your slaves, targeting you? Find some way to work the power of those chains into your harpoon leashes, and you'll end up facing foes who are debuffed, stuck within a move action of you, and if they try to fight you they take half the damage they deal upon themselves. Only solution for them is to take a full-round action to pull out the harpoon... which you then stick right back in them on your turn. Lockdown.
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Penetrating Shot feat: fire a weapon in a 60' line, damaging all enemies whose AC you hit. Combine with bloodstorm blade.
Deep crystal (+2d6 for 2 pp).
Manyfanged property (x4 damage).
Wounding (2 Con damage per shot).
Holy, unholy, anarchic, and axiomatic (negative levels while a target has it embedded, not to mention additional damage).
Various psychic warrior powers are nice for this, such as strength of my enemy to deal additional Strength damage and get you even more bonuses to your Strength.
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MM5, I believe, has stats for a Kuo-tuoan harpoon which is identical to the one from Stormwrack/Frostburn, but also can explicitly be used in melee.
There's an additional difference. The MMV version only does 1d10 damage when pulled out.
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Bloodstorm Blade!
Level 1 gets you free returning, which as noted, may or may not be stupidly powerful on a harpoon. Later levels give you super-returning, letting you make full attacks with your favorite magic harpoon, and then ricochet between enemies, which may or may not tie them all together like a string of beads.
And that's before the Bloodstorm Blade's main shtick, which is treating ranged attacks like melee. This opens up Iron Heart strikes, Power Attack, Knockback, and more obscure things like Pushback, which is hilarious on a ranged weapon.
And for kicks, Weapon Aptitude combined with Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Harpoon essentially gives you proficiency in everything, if you get bored of Harpoons and want to use boomerangs or shuriken.
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Being a Goliath or Half-Ogre for Powerful Build would be smart. It also opens up Knockback, which is a good alternative to tripping for keeping people away from you.
Power Attack. The harpoon's wording isn't clear on whether Power Attack damage (if you can apply it to a thrown weapon via Bloodstorm Blade or Power Throw) applies again when the target pulls the harpoon out, but if it does that would be excellent.
Warblade/ Bloodstorm Blade would work well, to let you be Str-dependent with no need to bother with Dex. Lightning Throw would be awesome with a harpoon, though you might not be able to afford the level investment to get it.
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
Not central to your build idea, but harpoons are a particularly efficient way to deliver explosive rune tags. Skewering someone with a bomb when you're holding the detonator is a nice piece of leverage, no?
Re: Harpoon Lockdown. Help me with this concept!
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Originally Posted by
limejuicepowder
Not central to your build idea, but harpoons are a particularly efficient way to deliver explosive rune tags. Skewering someone with a bomb when you're holding the detonator is a nice piece of leverage, no?
I like it though.
