5th lvl bard build suggestions requested: core

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1. Abilities after Half-elf racial applied are
STR: 12
DEX: 17
CON: 17
INT: 14
WIS: 14
CHR:20

2. Seeking to play a Lore bard. Only core is used
3. Not wanting to multi-class
4. Avoiding melee, preferring buff/debuff/control
5. Wish to be sneaky and a face
6. This is 5e

Thanks for reading my post and offering your ideas. What would you do with these conditions? Posters often don't state their goals and boundaries. I have tried to do this. The next session or two is gladiatorial arena fights while the DM generates new content. I will use this time to play test my bard in combat offset by gambling/scheming/resting social situations.

Parameters for your consideration:
Level 5 lore bard being built
Ancient Rome setting
Light RP. I would be the most active role player
DM will use social combat card deck for non-combat encounters
Party is low life miscreants and criminals
I will be a well played neutral
Low to moderate magic item power. I get no choices at the beginning.
Race: half elf. Open to others. Uncommon allowed.
Feats allowed
Stats assuming half-elf racial applied. No level 4 adjustment applied. I rolled 5d6 at the table. Kept 3d6: 12, 17, 17, 14, 20
Only core allowed + uncommon races
DM running a somewhat sneaky campaign but when the party blows it, as it is keen to do, the combat is brutal and often lethal.

Character goals: party face, bag-o-tricks, survival in above-average difficulty as the norm, help DM drive an increase in RP to enrich his stories. Self sufficient and capable of support.

Other characters in party. DM is comfortable with a somewhat shifting cast but imposes XP barriers. Myself and one of the other players don't like to change often:
Aasimar sneaky rogue, sword wielder. Sticks with character.

Storm cleric with munchkin tendencies who is kept well in check. Knows rules well and helps other players like me but doesn't role play much. Revolves characters.

Melee focused warlock who seems to die often and revolves similar characters.

Well, I have a few thoughts. first though, you only listed 5 stats, 12/17/17/14/20 which if you rolled 5d6b3 you shouldn't get a 20 with a half elf. Could you clarify what your starting rolls were please?

Regardless of that I would suggest Cha>Int>Con>Dex>Str>Will for your stats, whatever they may be.

I would suggest you take Combat Expertise and Improved Trip or Improved Disarm, assuming your strength score is above 11. If you don't have any strength bonus, don't take improved trip or improved disarm. This gives you agency in battle while your allies can do the heavier combat.

Have a whip as your primary weapon and a shortsword or rapier as your backup weapon.

This should prove quite useful even in an arena. It gives you the opportunity to win battles with flair and pazaz as you trip your enemies and cut their throats or rip their weapons from their hands and leave them to defend themselves without a weapon.

You have + 13 to Bluff and diplomacy checks if you max out your ranks. Why don't you compel your enemies to not attack you? Intimidate paired with disguise and can that you probably a plus 15 to make your opponent shaken for a round. Don't forget to use Aid another on your capable allies particularly the ones with Power Attack to give them a plus two to their attack rolls. If they're using a two-handed weapon that bonus to Power Attack going to do more damage on average than any weapon you can use.

All of bards best spells and feats are in Splat books.

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Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat

Regardless of that I would suggest Cha>Int>Con>Dex>Str>Will for your stats, whatever they may be.

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I would put Con and Dex before Int. Bards get a decent amount of skill points, and can easily get by with less int.

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Originally Posted by Hiro Quester

I would put Con and Dex before Int. Bards get a decent amount of skill points, and can easily get by with less int.

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Well, the OP said the intent was an RP focused Lore Bard which leads me to believe that the OP values knowledge and skills above maneuverability and hp. Now, I fully admit what I suggested wasn't optimized for combat, but it was optimized for those aspects.

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Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo

You have + 13 to Bluff and diplomacy checks if you max out your ranks. Why don't you compel your enemies to not attack you? Intimidate paired with disguise and can that you probably a plus 15 to make your opponent shaken for a round. Don't forget to use Aid another on your capable allies particularly the ones with Power Attack to give them a plus two to their attack rolls. If they're using a two-handed weapon that bonus to Power Attack going to do more damage on average than any weapon you can use.

All of bards best spells and feats are in Splat books.

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I would like to point out that even with a +13 to diplomacy, you'll be needing to make a DC 25 diplomacy check with a -10 penalty on your roll to make an opponent (considered hostile) to indifferent as a full round action. Even then, you're limited to a single target. If you don't take the -10 penalty to your diplomacy roll, you'll be taking 10 full round actions in a row, and likely getting killed in the process. Additionally, bards don't get intimidate as a class skill so using intimidate to demoralize the opponent is radically inefficient. Aiding another requires you to be within melee attack range of the opponent your ally is trying to strike. On top of that, the bonus you provide from aid another can't be used to get more damage from power attack so whether you aid another or not, the two handed weapon character can only trade up to their BAB to get damage returns.

Core Bards lack all the good stuff. Assuming we're talking 3.5, not Pathfinder, at least. Still, here's what you can work with...

Race:
Human or Aasimar, really. Aasimar makes you an Outsider enhancing Alter Self tremendously (and any Wands of Polymorph you end up with later - see Alter Self Guide) and gives you a Charisma-bonus with a painful level adjustment while Human gives you a bonus feat and bonus skill points with no annoying stat penalties. Halfling and Gnome are kinda good too since Strength is your least important attribute, and Grey Elf is not horrid but I'd tend towards Human.

Skills:
Beyond the superobvious Perform (Oratory is nice to relay via. e.g. Message) and Concentration, Use Magic Device is probably still a must, even with low magic item availability: as long as other casters exist or you can find scrolls, you can e.g. Craft Wands for yourself. Other than that, Knowledges, Diplomacy/Bluff/etc., perhaps Sleight of Hand and perception skills depending on your points. Craft: Alchemy can be good early on as some alchemical items (Alchemist's Fire, Tanglefoot Bag, etc.) can be really good on low levels and self-crafting is a huge saving and you're a caster so you have access to the skill. Spellcraft can also be very useful.

Feats:
Leadership is a great one but that's hard to sell. Mostly, crafting feats and perhaps (Greater) Spell Penetration and Heighten Spell are interesting. Heighten Spell really comes onto its own much later though. Improved Initiative is always good.


Spells:
Much really comes down to your spell selection. On level 5 you have 6/4/3 spells known which is sufficient to cover most of your bases. I'd look at...

0: Detect Magic (very strong, just keep it up and keep focusing each round), Prestidigitation (can do almost anything for 1 hour), Daze (combat viable level 0 spell), Read Magic, Message, Ghost Sounds (be creative)
1: Grease (great combat spell, trips enemies and counters grapple), Silent Image (combat and non-combat, trap mindless things in illusionary cages, Ghost Sound-augmented effects, etc.), Charm Person, Summon Monster I (something to Aid Another, run into traps, etc.)
2. Glitterdust (incredible combat spell, counters invisibility too), Alter Self (combat and non-combat; disguise, gain alternative movement modes, gain natural armor, etc.), Invisibility (the applications are beyond obvious)


Consider the following feats:
Scribe Scroll (lots of utility scrolls to cover your weak points is nice)
Craft Wondrous Items (obvious stuff like Charisma-boosting items)
Craft Wand (e.g. Cure Light Wounds is a great spell to Wand so you don't need your hard-earned combat slots to heal)
Improved Initiative (first to act is the first to affect the battle and leave the enemy at a disadvantage)

You could also pick up the archer feats (PBS > Rapid Shot and perhaps Precise Shot) if you plan to attack a lot: your Inspire Courage is a good buff to that plan anyways and you're better off at a range than in melee. Elf would have the Longbow proficiency, otherwise you're stuck with a Shortbow or taking a feat. Note, if you go down this route, you'll want Strength to get an appropriate Composite Bow and augment your offense.

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Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat

I would like to point out that even with a +13 to diplomacy, you'll be needing to make a DC 25 diplomacy check with a -10 penalty on your roll to make an opponent (considered hostile) to indifferent as a full round action. Even then, you're limited to a single target. If you don't take the -10 penalty to your diplomacy roll, you'll be taking 10 full round actions in a row, and likely getting killed in the process. Additionally, bards don't get intimidate as a class skill so using intimidate to demoralize the opponent is radically inefficient. Aiding another requires you to be within melee attack range of the opponent your ally is trying to strike. On top of that, the bonus you provide from aid another can't be used to get more damage from power attack so whether you aid another or not, the two handed weapon character can only trade up to their BAB to get damage returns.

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Well, there are the synergy bonuses. 8 ranks, +6 synergies, +6 Charisma is already 20. Add Masterwork tools (noble clothes or something) for +22, making it only a roll of 13, which is somewhat reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Well, there are the synergy bonuses. 8 ranks, +6 synergies, +6 Charisma is already 20. Add Masterwork tools (noble clothes or something) for +22, making it only a roll of

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I'm guessing you were going to say roll of 3 or 13, which is a lot better. I was only responding to the specific number that @daremetoidareyo quoted. On a personal note, I don't think a masterwork tool for diplomacy exists but that, again, is a personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat

I'm guessing you were going to say roll of 3 or 13, which is a lot better. I was only responding to the specific number that @daremetoidareyo quoted. On a personal note, I don't think a masterwork tool for diplomacy exists but that, again, is a personal opinion.

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I've seen a Masterwork Towel allowed.

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Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat

I'm guessing you were going to say roll of 3 or 13, which is a lot better. I was only responding to the specific number that @daremetoidareyo quoted. On a personal note, I don't think a masterwork tool for diplomacy exists but that, again, is a personal opinion.

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I personally tend to allow some items to act as masterwork tools for diplomacy with certain people. Things they hold in value, appropriate clothes, jewelry, etc. But yes, that's definitely down to DM purview.

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Originally Posted by Telonius

I've seen a Masterwork Towel allowed.

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I'm afraid to ask what said masterwork towel provided the circumstance bonus to...

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Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat

I'm afraid to ask what said masterwork towel provided the circumstance bonus to...

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Getting help in general.

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More importantly, a towel has immense psychological value. For some reason, if a strag (strag: nonhitchhiker) discovers that a hitchhiker has his towel with him, he will automatically assume that he is also in possession of a toothbrush, washcloth, soap, tin of biscuits, flask, compass, map, ball of string, gnat spray, wet-weather gear, space suit etc., etc. Furthermore, the strag will then happily lend the hitchhiker any of these or a dozen other items that the hitchhiker might accidentally have "lost." What the strag will think is that any man who can hitch the length and breadth of the Galaxy, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through and still knows where his towel is, is clearly a man to be reckoned with.

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I would like to point out that diplomacy isn't for direct combat use, it's better directed at guards, judges, and captors to set up advantageous metacombat conditions. Put your opponent near the lions, etc.

Anyone who could hold any power over you is a target for your diplomacy skill. You have to be honest about who is more powerful than you and you can crack that game open like an oyster.

Hmmm... for ancient Rome, I'm thinking Forgery could be much more devastating than Diplomacy.

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Originally Posted by Darrin

Hmmm... for ancient Rome, I'm thinking Forgery could be much more devastating than Diplomacy.

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Listen to Darrin. Get forgery.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat

Well, I have a few thoughts. first though, you only listed 5 stats, 12/17/17/14/20 which if you rolled 5d6b3 you shouldn't get a 20 with a half elf. Could you clarify what your starting rolls were please?

Regardless of that I would suggest Cha>Int>Con>Dex>Str>Will for your stats, whatever they may be.

I would suggest you take Combat Expertise and Improved Trip or Improved Disarm, assuming your strength score is above 11. If you don't have any strength bonus, don't take improved trip or improved disarm. This gives you agency in battle while your allies can do the heavier combat.

Have a whip as your primary weapon and a shortsword or rapier as your backup weapon.

This should prove quite useful even in an arena. It gives you the opportunity to win battles with flair and pazaz as you trip your enemies and cut their throats or rip their weapons from their hands and leave them to defend themselves without a weapon.

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Complete stats are posted now, thanks. The idea of a whip is interesting. The bard is a Spaniard so it could work. However, I had intended on trying to stay out of melee trouble

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Originally Posted by Hiro Quester

I would put Con and Dex before Int. Bards get a decent amount of skill points, and can easily get by with less int.

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Complete stats posted. Your position seems sound as well, especially in such a high CR campaign. My DM tends to lay it on thick.

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Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo

You have + 13 to Bluff and diplomacy checks if you max out your ranks. Why don't you compel your enemies to not attack you? Intimidate paired with disguise and can that you probably a plus 15 to make your opponent shaken for a round. Don't forget to use Aid another on your capable allies particularly the ones with Power Attack to give them a plus two to their attack rolls. If they're using a two-handed weapon that bonus to Power Attack going to do more damage on average than any weapon you can use.

All of bards best spells and feats are in Splat books.

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Thanks for the creative response. This is interesting and I am definitely putting resources into social skills. However, I don't want to turn that into shenanigans. I'm a bit new to 5e so your suggestions sound like Pathfinder rules. Am I wrong? We are not using anything other than core. We don't like getting together once a week to become math librarians, which is what splat books tend to do.

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Originally Posted by orionbryan

Complete stats are posted now, thanks. The idea of a whip is interesting. The bard is a Spaniard so it could work. However, I had intended on trying to stay out of melee trouble

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Whips have a whopping 15' range, more than enough to say out of immediate melee while still contributing as a BFC backup (if you encounter antimagic/magic supression). While you want to stay out of melee trouble, having it available to you is never a bad thing. Arm yourself with a whip and a rapier and you'll be safe from pretty much any nere-do-wells. You'll get to buff and debuff while giving yourself a never-ending supply of minimal BFC. You can 2-hand a whip on disarms with it as well for and additional +4 bonus to the disarm netting you a total of +14 on the disarm attack (+3 BAB, +4 2-hand whip, +2 Whip, +4 Improved Disarm, and +1 from your strength). That's a pretty good bonus for only minimal investment.

So sorry this is for 5e. I am new to posting. I have recreated there.

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Originally Posted by orionbryan

So sorry this is for 5e. I am new to posting. I have recreated there.

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disregard literally everything I've said about everything. I was under the impression it was for 3.pf so I made my recommendations from there.

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Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo

I would like to point out that diplomacy isn't for direct combat use, it's better directed at guards, judges, and captors to set up advantageous metacombat conditions. Put your opponent near the lions, etc.

Anyone who could hold any power over you is a target for your diplomacy skill. You have to be honest about who is more powerful than you and you can crack that game open like an oyster.

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This is an excellent post and I appreciate the metaphor. I would welcome more ideas in this vein where I have recreated the thread in 5e.

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Originally Posted by Darrin

Hmmm... for ancient Rome, I'm thinking Forgery could be much more devastating than Diplomacy.

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Top three ideas?

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Originally Posted by orionbryan

Top three ideas?

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Borrowed from an earlier thread:

Free equipment/magic items: "Here is a letter from Senator Fancypants, authorizing me to pick up his purchase of X. Here is a receipt from the Bank of McMoneybags confirming that the funds have already been paid into your account." "The Imperial Tax Assessor has determined that you owe X amount to the imperial treasury. Please deliver these funds (or a similar value of cash-equivalent goods) to my authorized representative or face immediate arrest for tax evasion."

Bypass an encounter: "Lord Babykiller urgently needs you at the front gate! He has authorized these loyal mercenary buddies of his to cover your post." "Son/daughter is in trouble! Come home at once!" "I, Lord Babykiller, have created this gang of doppelgangers to impersonate our most hated enemies. Give them access to our stronghold so they can set up an ambush to take our enemies by surprise." "The bearer of this document has been placed under a powerful polymorph spell that is immune to magical detection in order to protect his identity. This individual is actually Emperor McWealthypants. Disclosure of this information to anyone outside of the Emperor's retinue will result in immediate execution."

Other Social Engineering Ideas: "This is a contingent explosive runes spell! If you do not act precisely as instructed, your skull will immediately explode." "Lord Evilbeard is hereby convicted of treason against the Emperor and declared an enemy of the state. This warrant authorizes his immediate capture, and if he does not immediately surrender, agents of imperial authority may use lethal force." "General Bigbritches situation is dire. Deploy all available legions to Thermopylae with all possible haste."

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Originally Posted by Darrin

Borrowed from an earlier thread:

Free equipment/magic items: "Here is a letter from Senator Fancypants, authorizing me to pick up his purchase of X. Here is a receipt from the Bank of McMoneybags confirming that the funds have already been paid into your account." "The Imperial Tax Assessor has determined that you owe X amount to the imperial treasury. Please deliver these funds (or a similar value of cash-equivalent goods) to my authorized representative or face immediate arrest for tax evasion."

Bypass an encounter: "Lord Babykiller urgently needs you at the front gate! He has authorized these loyal mercenary buddies of his to cover your post." "Son/daughter is in trouble! Come home at once!" "I, Lord Babykiller, have created this gang of doppelgangers to impersonate our most hated enemies. Give them access to our stronghold so they can set up an ambush to take our enemies by surprise." "The bearer of this document has been placed under a powerful polymorph spell that is immune to magical detection in order to protect his identity. This individual is actually Emperor McWealthypants. Disclosure of this information to anyone outside of the Emperor's retinue will result in immediate execution."

Other Social Engineering Ideas: "This is a contingent explosive runes spell! If you do not act precisely as instructed, your skull will immediately explode." "Lord Evilbeard is hereby convicted of treason against the Emperor and declared an enemy of the state. This warrant authorizes his immediate capture, and if he does not immediately surrender, agents of imperial authority may use lethal force." "General Bigbritches situation is dire. Deploy all available legions to Thermopylae with all possible haste."

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Outstanding thanks for this, lol